What's going on with the audio market?

Interesting responses, thanks!  So what I'm hearing (minus the political comments) is a shift in the market away from high-end dedicated two channel systems, a saturation of used gear, less disposable income and prohibitive costs are the main culprits to the current downturn. 

FWIW, I'm 48, 25, maybe 5

Some of this lamenting reminds me of Paul Lynde singing "Kids" from "Bye-Bye Birdie". Ours is a hobby from yesteryear which has long ago decided to catch up to the times but there will always be our kind of gear being made. There's really nothing to worry about.

This hobby of ours has made a great enough impact that no matter the times, it will always be here in one form or another. It's in our nature to cling to the past. Just take a look at any Mustang or Camaro. They bend over backwards to make sure it looks like something from the sixties (which dates it as soon as it leaves the showroom floor).

Brick and motor will suffer as the internet and audio shows take the lead.
Another auto analogy shows dealerships may be going the way of the do-do as well as manufacturers are considering online purchasing and the use of boutique stores for their cars to be displayed in, like mini auto shows. What's the matter with kids today indeed!

All the best,
Nonoise

jmcgrogan2 what was your system at 16? I ask because I had a complete load of crap at that age...

@infection , as I said earlier, it was my first system, but I wouldn’t call it serious audio. I didn’t get into serious audio until I was 28 years old.

At 16 I bought a pair of Altec Lansing Model 9 speakers, coupled them with a big old Pioneer receiver, a Technics turntable, and an Akai tape deck. All brand new, I didn’t know about used stuff back then.

I bought it all while my parents were away for the weekend. They were very unhappy when they came home. Those were the days (1976).
Risky Business before the movie came out. ;^)

I would have loved that when I was 16 in 1991.
So what did you have at 28?

As far as the future goes, things like quantum entanglement(which they are learning that more than photons and spin can be quantum entangled) leave us hope. I think we(as ordinary citizens) need to come up with stuff, as the powers-that-be would be busy trying to figure out how to make money from it.   For instance, I've found that energy and (some parts) of weather(this last one is a possible recent discovery by me) can be transferred also.  We just have a lack of imagination, and a lot of 20th century thinking, dominating much of what we call science.

The Internet is impacting brick-and-motors. Some people brag about listening to equipment in a store, making a decision based upon their audition and the dealer's recommendation and then purchasing it for less on the Internet. Ethical to burn the dealer's overhead like that?

I believe digital, as good as it is, plays a part in music not being as important in people's lives.  While you can sit back and say that sounds fantastic(an intellectual reaction), it still doesn't quite bring about the relaxation that analog can.  In other words, the need to listen to music for what it can give you in this area, has diminished(i.e.,it's no longer as relaxing).

mmakshak-

obama did not end the recession, he not only prolonged it, made it worse.
Do you know the figure of our National debt? WAKE UP!

I don’t have the measured data to support this view other than being a 55/40 who has watched the industry, but it seams to me the amount of gear available today is broader and deeper than at any time in my 40 years. Much has been driven by the growth in the eastern rim bringing in a lot of new players and such. Without getting political, the breadth of the US market has been limited by the disposable income of the middle class and Gen X. As (or if) this condition corrects itself over the next generation I still think the same aspects of the high-end that attracted current buyers will penetrate the segment of the consumer market know on hold.

There are tons of young buyers who love their music on the cheap and for mobility that will fall for the same things in live performance simulation that have driven the human condition to music for thousands of years. We are wired for its effects.

@jafant  enough about Obama and the economy and politics please this is not the place for it,  not to mention an ironic place to complain about the economy.

Jond, good luck with that.

I think more people started to go buy cheaper but VERY good sounding stuff. For example, the new tiny Class D amps sound awesome. You would probably think "nah" when you read this but it is REALLY good. No, it does not sound as good as an $5K Class A and/or tube amp but it is darn close.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/if-a-gear-is-dirt-cheap-do-you-think-it-is-no-good/post?posti...

The hobby is fragmented into many different segments. If I can use a car analogy for a sec, there are the antiquarian types (think vintage Bugatti, pre-war, similar to the WE horn crowd); the high dollar bling- modern Ferrari, Lambo whatever (give me a vintage one); the bang for the buck crowd-monster performance for the dollar from some Japanese tweaker cars or hell, even a modern Corvette. And a sort of middle ground that captures old school, plus high performance/vaiue ratio- e.g. later air cooled 911s that have had some wrench turning done. There is every conceivable flavor, following and "school of" under the sun; I think the same is true in hi-fi. I don't think the hobby, in any of its forms will expire-there are still folks who are avid about 78s. All of it can be embraced--(I don't do 78s, it's too much at this point, I buy later transcriptions on 33). But, who would have predicted all the big ticket vinyl stuff- that's not the so-called millennial crowd. I firmly believe that you can buy something of value that will last a long time and give you great pleasure. A lot of the turnover in hi-fi was the "upgrade" and for some segment it still may be- those who are still building a system or those who just like changing gear. There's room for all of it. I think this stuff will be here long after even the youngest of us are gone, but if I'm wrong, I guess I won't know, will I? 

Many have referenced the middle class and diminished discretionary spend. Was the middle class ever buying $1k cables, $5k preamps, $10k speakers? I'm not sure. These components and speakers are nice to haves, not need to haves. 

I see a lot of mention on threads where members are qualifying their posts by stating their profession or education (engineers, etc.) Is there a slight correlation between this demographic and the decline of these disciplines domestically? 

I do not have this type of background but I am a music lover first and I'm a definite tweaker so somehow this all works for me.

i look at the top end of products in this hobby how stereophile covers them and I feel the same about Motor Trend..great Cars that I'll never own, but I can find something that works for me..

I guess my view is that we are in the midst of a transition -- a healthy but ultimately very destructive transition. Overall the demand for and supply of new gear is healthy, especially at the very high end ($10K and up up up). Just a quick look at the new launches (turntables from Boulder, a new high price for a table, new reel to reel players etc.) in the past month as evidence.

At the same time your high street dealer and the low/mid end is vanishing, blown away by internet selling. High end dealers that operate nationally/internationally seem to be holding on with even some new ones opening (case in point Audio Salon in Santa Monica)

So in some ways audio is becoming like furniture -- there's a mass cheap market and often of excellent quality and a bewildering and extensive top end. But precious little in the middle. Maybe we need a hi-fi version of Restoration Hardware -- perhaps what Fine Sounds are trying to do with their World of McIntosh stores? The downside of this -- have you ever seen the resale value of furniture? You're lucky if you can get 20cents on the dollar, also the lead times for high end furniture often run to six months or more -- this is something we are seeing with many of the boutique manufacturers as well

So looking ahead I think this is a great time to be spending time on AudioGon -- there will be lots of very attractive high end stuff available at knock down prices, and lots of high end technology trickling down the lines. Things look less good if you are a) a mass market dealer trying to make a living or b) someone who cannot afford to take a depreciation loss on buying new

I would be interested to hear from any producers and or retailers of audio equipment that may have already posted or are watching this thread. I’m curious as to how much walk-in (if you have a storefront) vs. online sales (ratio only) as well as if you know the demographic or your buyers?

additionally, you’ll most likely always have the niche diehard audiophiles attention but what are you doing to reach the mainstream consumer?

Most of my friends have never heard of Pass Labs, Rogue, VPI but they certainly know McIntosh and Marantz (hell, even Crutchfield has gone all in on McIntosh.)

how do you underpin your value prop to newbies, how do you simplify the complex?

seems as though VPI has tried this with the Traveler TT and Rogue with the Sphinx. Peachtree is another that comes to mind as well as Sprout.

These are not high end items however they can serve as a gateway...

"...they can serve as a gateway..." 


...to hell...

I believe it is difficult to assess the direction of high-end audio from sales on Audiogon and other used on-line markets, but attendance at Axpona was reported well up from previous years, as was the show in Munich. Reports of increased attendance by vendors and observers.  Maybe the Russian, Asian, and wealthy European  markets will keep the Hi-fi world alive. 

Check out some of the uber-high-end...must be some mega-wealth buying these stuff.
https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/title-to-be-added/audio-shows/munich-2016/13663-some-shots-from-m...

Jfant...you may want to keep your ignorance of what drives world markets and fiscal policies to yourself.  Your Fox-y source of information is showing.

@infection ...hilarious..

I would have loved that when I was 16 in 1991.
So what did you have at 28?

Thanks.
Let's see, so late in 1987 I discovered a small company called Reel to Real Designs through a small ad in the back of Audio magazine. They had a speaker out called the Legacy 1's that I bought in early 1988. The company has grown much bigger over the years, and now calls themselves Legacy Audio. The Legacy 1's were their top of the line at the time, and sold for a whopping $1600 (a lot of dough at that time). Now I believe they are called the Legacy Classics HD, and are almost bottom of the line.
Bill Duddleston was working out of his garage at the time. Good old days.

I paired them with a PS Audio PS-200CX amplifier and a PS Audio 4.6 preamp with the separate power supply. I had a VPI HW-19 Jr turntable with a Dynavector 10X4 cartridge. By now, I had a CD player too, as perfect sound forever had been released upon the unsuspecting public. I had a Sony, but I can't recall the model number. It was much better than my first CD player, a Fischer, in 1985?

Been chasing the rabbit down the rabbit-hole ever since. ;^)

siddh-

perhaps you should keep your mouth shut. You do  not know what the hell you are talking about. Moron!

Now, back to the Audio discussion.

@siddh increased attendance is great but are the delegates actually purchasing? That's the real question. 

Not many buying the hype anymore these days?

I'm 64...Been playing about with audio since my late teens. Have owned some semi-serious equipment in the past, but never 'caught the bug' or had the disposable income to  own Serious Stuff.  Did develop ears that could discern between mere hype and local acoustics over significance, IMHO.  Did learn to notice that 'HO' had a lot to do with the previous claims...again, IMHO.  When computers edged into audio, started playing about with that; it wasn't hard to see that the future went 'there' ultimately....
Current equipment isn't 'pedigree', nor the environment it exists in...half audio, half digital, cables like pasta to step over.  I amuse myself with my predilection of making a DIY Walsh speaker along the lines of the German Physiks units.  At 10% of the price of one, I make 4.  They're not perfect, but I enjoy listening to them more than the other speakers I own...
For me, That gets back to the basic and founding essence of this 'hobby', this 'pursuit'.  The endeavour for enjoyment and entertainment, what engrosses you and motivates.  One can spend more..'bang for the buck' is still a relative issue, and is relative to the individual's desires.
The market has never been more broad, as is the price of admission to one's chosen approach.  And that approach, as always, is driven by what one wants and what one is prepared to pay for it.  Serious Audio suffers the same fate as Serious Autos, or Serious Real Estate.  If you can afford it, you will buy it.  If not, you abstain, stand pat, or get out or downsize.
Tastes change too.  If one's Iwhatever and ear buds float your boat, that's where it'll stop and stay.  For others, no, and the spectrum of the current market plays to every conceivable niche one can consider...

Twas always thus.  It's just changing, as it always has, and always will.
C'mon y'all...quit fretting.  There's far more serious things going on than this...

Case in point:  The bees are disappearing.  Rapidly.  Stop, think.  No bees, no pollination.  Audio issues meaningless when you don't eat.

There are other nightmares pending, and presidents past, present, or future can't and don't fix these things. Their 'job' is to make a choice when an issue comes to a head, on their desk, for us (ideally).  They don't effect the price of gas.  They don't create jobs.  They can't make the stock market (or any other market) behave and play nice for our benefit.

They can behave badly and make us look astoundingly stupid.

Vote like you life depends upon it.

It Does.

Yup.  This is not a political discussion. But I tend to feel a lot of back in the day vibe here. Failure by companies and the older audiophile communityto step into the new times is also key.  This generation wants choice of music over sound quality. I think that pricing has really gotten out of hand. Listening habits have changed.  Same old rock Same old jazz and same old blues or country is not doing it for the new audiophiles.  You have them listening to other genres and people doing streaming and or computer audio more.  The straight up 2 channel market is suffering.  Eventually you got to accept that and that Obama has nothing to do with it. Lol. There is an eroding audio middle class. 

Don't start bringing social class into the discussion...

calvinj- I agree that younger listeners aren’t listening to the same "playlist" of geezer-pleasers, but they pick and choose- they may be doing metal (that seems to be the guy-rock of the 20 and 30 somethings) but every once in a while, a question like "Anybody heard the James Gang’ will pop up. My read is that two channel at the moment is back, but of course that can and will change. Look, I think we’re all speculating here in part on what the future will bring, but the one thing we can be certain of is that the hobby will keep changing. Does that mean the death of what AVSJerry called "Serious" audio? I don’t think so, and that branch was always a little bit of a rich man’s game (though the numbers in today’s dollars do seem staggering for some components). I’m also not sure about the class distinctions- some of the nuttiest audiophiles I’ve known have been poor as church mice, but spent what they had, and wrangled, to get "serious" gear. (Many worked in the industry to do this). On the other hand, the wealthy folks I know seem to have little interest in purist audio (another elitest term but you know what I mean) and have computer controlled whole house systems.... We’re geeks, that’s all.

Mapman, right on. *G* (Just showing my age... ;)...)

"Serious Audio"...I think I'm 'doing' a variant of that...I'm serious about what I'm about, and I'll posit that the guys with the megabuck systems are, too.  The guy jogging by with the buds in his ears, the musicians posting on Soundcloud, the galaxy of streamcasters, the entire continuum of musical endeavour spanning the globe, all that.  And although I sometimes think the heated discussions that occur over cables get a tad over the top, I'll support the right to do so and applaud AG and any site that gives us the forum and freedom to do so.  So rave on...

I know that I sometimes edge into trollishness in apparent attitude... I feel that there's more important issues of our life and times that should be concerning us, But...  

I'll agree that the 'market' is changing, responding to tech, 'mass market desires', the global production community, economic forces, and whatever the ad agencies can blow up our butts and make one want to drain their wallets/purses/credit accounts.  One picks and chooses their level of co-operation with all that. *L*  'Ell, I'd like a faster 'puter to run my junk on, so I'm not immune, either...

Support your B&M favorites.  Support that local guy.  Hey, I'm a micro-biz type, too.  I like it when the phone rings, or the email beeps.  Answer that ad, call that number, enjoy.  Get behind whatever floats your boat as best you might and may.

Everything changes.  That which remains in stasis is either dying or will get marked down shortly. *G*  Just try to keep the fun factor in it and in mind. ;)

70, 20, 100+

Mapman really got at one big driver of Aphile behavior of late. Even the remaining aging Aphile consumers are getting plain old fed up with.....

"Not many buying the hype anymore these days"

Gear is so darn full of hype and at crazy, I mean crazy, high prices.  It is out of hand and many of us are jumping off the crazy train. I blame industry manufacturers and retailers for their lack of creatively and tired ways. Yes, some are doing it right and will survive, but many "high end" companies will be gone over the next 5-10 years.

I am 63. I have been a hobbyist since college, (AR table, Sherwood integrated, EV speakers). Spent a decade in the business. Owned and sold equipment in an age when a Iowa town of 100,000 had 5 local stores, selling ARC, Magnepan, Polk, Thorens, Infinity, Bozak, ESS, Ohm Walsh, a/d/s, Klipschorns, Altec 19s, AR-9s, Tannoy Dual Concentrics, JBL Century, Hafler, Carver Amazing, Epicure, HK Citation, yada, yada. The town has grown to probably 170,000 and now has a single Best Buy. I am sadden by the decline in brick and mortar stores. Part of the decline is the challenge all local retail faces as online options impact our economy. The decline also, more importantly I think, reflects the turn of the fashion cycle between generations. My children grew up with great audio (and left home with systems I put together)-so its not that they were not exposed to quality, its just not as important to them. Conversely my Depression surviving parents must have shook their heads as I became more and more obsessed with musical reproduction, (even had a "career" in it). So much of our identity and preferences are of the time we grew up in. Hey if you were in college in the 70's you wanted the best system you could afford, for status with the guys, and sex appeal with the ladies, (turn down the lights and put on that Moody Blues or It's Beautiful Day you've been hiding). Today's hipsters are measured by their phones, tats, taste in microbrews, etc. -it's not a value thing, it is all equally valid/ridiculous. They will lament when the last "Body Ink Artist" closes shop due to their kids finding their own, necessarily different, aesthetic.

My interest in audio began at a very young age of 6, when I stayed up listening to am radio hits.  Eventually, at 9 I received my first compact record player, spinning 45's and by the age of 11 33's.  Although, I always had a great desire for sound quality, it took until my early 20's to discover that audio could come close to replicating the live venue.  
Throughout the last 50 years I have personally known maybe 6 people...outside of the audio world...who cared about audio equipment.  It has always been on the periphery.  All  my friends, from high school on, just jammed tunes on their 8-tracks, cassettes, etc.
The explosive pricing for top end equipment appears to be nothing new.  Back in the late 80's I was astounded to read of a $7500.00 amplifier.  Now, that's on the lower end of the tier.
Personally, I don't see a drop in audiophile interest...it merely seems to  exists in the same world of esoterica as always.

Throughout the last 50 years I have personally known maybe 6 people...outside of the audio world...who cared about audio equipment. It has always been on the periphery.

Wow, too bad.  My experience has been quite the contrary.
When I started in High School everybody either had or wanted a good stereo.  And a hot car too.

Its only now that I know 6 people, outside the industry, that have an interest and I can talk audio with. 

Personally, I don't see a drop in audiophile interest...it merely seems to exists in the same world of esoterica as always.

Now its esoteric.  But it once was mainstream brother. 

Oh yeah, my numbers - 58, 17, maybe 4.

SOME ASSHOLE KEEPS DELETING MY POSTS!

jafant I wonder why? grow up dude and be polite and maybe that won't happen?

Back in the day, there was a palpable sense of the art advancing by the month, and we waited like junkies for the next issue of Absolute Sound to inform us of the next advance.  Many of those advances were available to the young and the working class.  For example, the Apt Holman preamp, the Advent and Dalquist speakers, Shure cartridges, and even Sherwood receivers. Those were heady days, but more importantly, we were in the audio stores as potential buyers, and not just window shoppers outside of Tiffany's seeing how the rich lived.  The thought was, "Do I want to spend that much?" and not the dismissive, "Out of my league."

Technically, technologies go through an awkward youth, a vibrant adolescence, and then a maturity where the new is derivative of the past   Think Windows and Intel.  The performance of many audio components began to plateau, with smaller and smaller improvements, especially when you're up against the limits of human hearing.  You can only keep getting halfway to the  limit in ever smaller steps.  Except for Class-D, we're way past vibrant adolescence in most components.

Economically, as the market began to contract, companies had to make more money on each unit, and we saw a great price inflation just as salaries and performance were leveling off.  But there were more wealthy, both here and globally, so a lot of potential and past customers were just left behind as the wrong demographic.

But at the heart of it, audio systems used to command a much bigger share of our fascination and entertainment, but now our vested interest is in looking at screens instead of what's being projected between stereo speakers.  Audio has lost the eyeballs more than the ears.

All IMHO.

Not a class discussion.  I can buy what I want for the most part but nobody wants to put a new car into their system. Nor should they have to. I'm pretty much done on the big purchases. I'm pretty much done on the behavior of some of our audiophile brothers. It's become a hobby that is less about fun and more about guys thinking they they got better gear than other guys.  Some guys even think can tell other folks what to say. I think I have ran into more snobbery and less guys that just want to listen. This hobby is changing  there are less true audiophiles and more uber expensive gear that can't be purchased by most.  Bad mix 

Pretty cogent overview there, E-Slacker. 

Calvin- don't lose faith. You don't have to feel that way- this hobby can still be fun and lot's of good used gear, DIY, interesting stuff if you are willing to invest the time. The music- yeah, that's really the purpose, but we tend to rationalize all the gear-mania by claiming that it's getting us closer to the real musical experience. I feel like I've gotten off the treadmill, and while gear still interests me, I'm probably more interested in set up, the design, the "why" of it, and the history, rather than the bling. And buying records- much fun there to be had, you can have stuff coming in constantly from web purchases- great to look forward to, to explore and hear new things (or old things that you haven't heard).  I enjoy my system now more than I ever did; I still buy stuff, but I'm not caught up in any sort of competition, and I have fun experimenting. 

Returntomusic, I concur.  Not that there isn't a ring of truth in all the other posts but I think you nailed it.

TO THE ASSHOLE WHOM IS REMOVING MY POSTS- REMOVE THE POSTS BY SIDDH AS WELL. I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST PERSONAL TREATS/CHALLENGES!

Jafant it's the moderators you just need to chill out and no one here is attacking you.

"There will always be plenty of good sounding gear to buy. More so than ever.   Because technology and things in general move forward.   Its not as hard these days to get top notch sound as it was years ago.   Only a few still scrape and claw at every last possibility at any price. Most people are just listening to their music and loving it.   Including old timers like me that live and learn.   I've bought into some hype and maybe even a tad of BS in years past but am better these days.

So the days of living with old ways of the past for the industry may well be very limited but the ones that continue to truly innovate and adapt will continue to fill the market with good products that can keep most everyone happy one way or another.

Consumers will be fine, including those seeking the best possible sound."

I agree.