I’m considering a pair of Rel S510s to go with my Diablo 300 and B&W 802 D2’s. I’ve invested quite a bit in cabling: Audioquest Dragon for my amp, Hurricanes for my source equipment, and Nordost Valhalla 2 for my speaker wire. I can clearly hear the difference between a Hurricane and a Dragon cord when powering my amp. The Dragon puts space and air around vocals and instruments with front to back depth.
There is no way I can afford anything better than two 3m Hurricanes for the Rel S510’s but my question is, how much do power cords matter for subs? Sadly for my wallet, I’ve found that higher grade cords do make a considerable difference for all my other components, verified through blind tests. Not as much as speaker cables, but still a big difference.
I also have a Innuos network isolation switch and also an Innuos USB reclocker, to support my Innuos Zenith Mk 3 streamer.
Does power cord quality matter less with subs than with everything else?
For the record I’ve seen other threads on this subject, with what seems to be consensus that power cords don’t matter with subs, but I was hoping others who, like me, appreciate the difference a top tier power cord can make, can comment on whether there truly is no benefit to using one when it comes to subs. Has anyone compared a Hurricane grade (or better) cord with a stock cord, connected to a high end sub?
Nasty term Troll.. that said they do like to chow down. Perhaps a testing diet of more than a hammer, screwdriver, vice grips, silly stories and imagination. Let’s have Figures, Comparables derived from how / what ? Frequency instrument tests, Low resistance ohmmeter tests, possibly oscilloscope digital and / or analogue, Wow even simple fluke multimeter tests but something ?? We’re hungry feed us ! That said.. Please please hear what I hear.. Just doesn’t cut it !
My reply:
That is your viewpoint. I have a few meters to test with, but they don't tell me how anything sounds. If I want to know how a component sounds, or an accessory, I listen to it.
I pretty much expect the trolls to emerge whenever posting about cables, lol!!! Trolls are part of the fun. But I also think there are some who legitimately can’t wrap their heads around how better cables can help. These folks simply are new to the discussion and can’t figure out how “the last few feet of power can make a difference when the power has travelled hundreds of miles” etc. I actually just happened on a post where someone was stating all of the usual arguments, posting links to support their case, telling everyone not to waste their money. He was not a troll, but just new to the age-old debate. Others challenged him to go hear the difference himself, and to his credit, he agreed. He clearly stated his plan for the test, and was ready to come back and say he was right. Again, to his credit, he reported back saying he clearly heard the difference a better power cord made, and indicated that he was dumbfounded as to how it could possibly make a difference. He then said “I was wrong”. Something you don’t normally hear at the end of internet debates!
So not every anti-cable poster is a troll. I completely agree it goes against common sense for a power cord to make a difference. And, don’t get me started on USB cords…. It doesn’t make any sense at all, but they make a difference! Tested the very expensive Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cord and yes it does improve the mids and treble. Bass definition was also better, however overall bass energy was reduced. Much like the Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord actually. This is in comparison to my much less expensive Audioquest Diamond USB. In the end I found the improvement to be too minimal for the silly cost, and stuck with my Audioquest’s which are decent. Of note, the length of the cord makes a massive impact and not in the way you think. Longer than 1m gives much, much better performance for both USB and power cords in my experience.
Response: I agree with your whole comment. Also the length need to be at least 3 feet for a significant difference (or influence), and it maxes out at about 8 feet. 8 feet can be impractical for all components, and would make a snake pit in some systems. So I try to have a minimum of 4 feet.
I upgraded my Baseline Blue Speakon high-level input cables on my REL's by building my own cables with better wire (Meddiabridge 12 gauge) and Neutrik NL4FC Speakon cable connectors. Definitely an improvement in sound from the REL subwoofers at a fraction of the cost of purchasing something already built. I also purchased custom-built (inexpensive) 10-gauge power cords which as far as I'm concerned was also an improvement (12' long each). I simply upgraded to a 10awg 99.99% pure OFC copper using a good IEC and AC plug, all cryo-treated.
To follow up on this thread, I finally got my Rel subwoof... I mean, "sub-bass systems". Carbon Specials.
They sound superb with their stock power cords which are currently plugged in, but I will upgrade them soon as things can always sound better. I’m going to see if I can get a pair of 3M Audioquest Thunder cords, and a pair of 3m Hurricane cords, as demos to see if the cord quality actually matters. Truly hoping it doesn’t make a difference and I can go even lower grade. Despite the fact that I am firmly on the side of power cords making a big difference that is easily and blindly discernible on a revealing enough system, now that I have a bit of experience with my Rel’s, I’m not sure power cords will matter as much for subs. I have two reasons why this is my expectation, prior to testing:
After correctly tuning and positioning my subs, meticulously checking for correct integration and balance with my main speakers, I tried playing them at normal volume with my mains disconnected. The subs are just whispering! It’s amazing that slight of a sound makes that much difference. Given that it’s just a mere whisper of supporting bass, I can’t see how power cords matter all that much.
The upgraded Baseline Blue Speakon high level input cables which I purchased are comparatively cheap. If the signal cables are that "cheap", it seems like it would be weird to spend much more on power cords. These signal cables are even used with Rel’s even higher grade reference speakers. I don’t hear of audiophiles going crazy on higher level input cables for high end subs, so I really don’t see power cords being all that critical for subs.
I did find an old thread where the poster claimed that upgraded power cords helped his subs, in particular and surprisingly helping the mid frequencies and vocals. I am really, really hoping this doesn’t turn out to be the case for me. I have other uses for the cash!
i used as good a power cable as i could on the s510 and it improved with it. it also loved isolation. imo alot of noise is around the bass frequencies and so removing power line noise is a priority and so is using a litz power cable that reduces noise.
for testing i'd suggest you'd need to leave it in for a time and assess more on that basis. i would not at all be surprised however if you have to re-do levels. the reduction in noise floor will elevate gain significantly. i suggest you trial a dragon if you can (since i presume you are in the US). however i also upgraded the speakon cable to a "blueline" from rel i think they are called. that made a big difference and was much cheaper than a dragon.
in aug stereophile magazine Mike Fremer relates a story of a guy selling 4k USD speakers and demoing them with 8k worth of dragon cables (powered speakers). mf says "why the hell r u doing that". guy says "they make the speakers sound so much better i had to"
knowing what i know now, a good start to a system would prioritise power over everything else. no fancy anything until the power is as good as it can be.
I have a pair of S/510s, been using the stock power cords for a while. I replaced them with an older set of Pangea cords, that I wasn't using, so far I haven't noticed any difference. I have no desire to try different cords, I am fine with the subs as is.
@1971gto455ho, I have known a thing or two about this forum (common sense:rare, Troll Accusations: Frequent). It is the reason that I post here rarely. Generally, I just like to look at some threads and have a laugh.
I know a lot of people do not have a brick and mortar shop that lends out cables. This is the best way to try cables and equipment out at home. Also, I will tell you it can take a few hours or even a day or two for cables including power cables. I am not saying you do not hear a difference right away because you should. I call it loading up the cable or letting it balance out or settle in. Interconnects and speaker cables need time because of the lower voltage and I believe it needs to become consistent otherwise it’s like an empty water hose or line that needs to get the air out. Power cords make a difference the next day because the caps in the components need to do the same. Charge up and level out. The first time I noticed what a difference a power cable makes is when I replaced my stock PC on my surround receiver with a Nordost Blue Heaven. It really made a difference. Plus, some of these receivers have 9-13 amplifiers. That’s a lot of power not to mention all the other things in the same box. I say go with a 14 ga power cord so your not starving that equipment. Try it. Take your nice power card from one of your other sources like a phono stage or CD player and put it on your surround system. The next day after you charge up all of the moss caps you will understand. I hope this helps.
Spend some money on speaker cables, interconnects, amp power cables and if you really want to push it, upgrade the rca/XLR cable for the subwoofer. But, spending on the power cable for a subwoofer is just stupid. You realize that you are talking about a bass driver with crossover set to ~50 hz and below in most cases right?
My dear friend are you jealous or just ill-informed ? I shall help you, my GTO is one of 79 made it is mechanically modified all original parts retained. It is a convertible with no roll cage so quarter-mile time is a guess. I do enjoy 700+HP and it drives with modern comfort. Don’t know where you are financially you may or may not be able to afford it should I decide to sell it. Let’s stay friends and stick to the Audio perhaps there would be conversation worth listening to. I do have other more conventional transportation High speed etc. should you be interested . Thank you for your continued interest.
@ronboco, I tested many different speaker cables and power cords, mid to top end, from Audioquest, Shunyata, Transparent, and Nordost. Nothing came close to the Nordost Valhalla 2’s for the speaker cables. Didn’t like the Nordost power cords, but cords from other brands were all good, with varying presentation styles.
"In our experience your REL will perform best when using the stock power cord that is supplied with it, though you are welcome to experiment with aftermarket power cords. As long as the replacement one at minimum matches the spec of the stock cord (18 AWG wire, three prong including a ground prong) then it will not damage the subwoofer, and from there any potential performance improvements will be up to your ears to determine."
I thought the same thing about power cords on subs. I have only listened to different pc on my JL Audio F110 subs. I had nice 14 GA Puritan Classic Plus cables but on each of the two subs. It did make an improvement over stock. It could be the gauge over the stock 16 ga wire. I bought some Straightwire Black Thunder pc for my DAC and Preamp. I put them on the Subs to break them in. I noticed an immediate difference in the bass. It was more powerful than before. Also, It was cleaner and faster or more detailed especially keeping up with my front speakers. These are 10 ga equivalent wire from six strands. I think the strands make a difference over solid core. All that mattered to me was it sounded better. Lets say 25% better than before. I did turn the gain down to match the room again. Even after turning them down it sounds like the low bass is enveloped in the room. I cannot tell it’s coming from the subs even at high levels. After that I played around with other things on the subs like putting them on IKEA cutting boards which made things even better for $20 a sub. I left the Straightwire Black Thunder on the subs too good to take off.
For that frequency, power cables do not matter much.
For higher frequencies though, the lower inductance, the better. Call the manufacturer before purchasing. They measure that. They will know what you are getting at. But nobody publishes it.
. Reminds me of a story I was telling about my farm saying it took four hours to drive from one end of it to the other a blowhard told me it took him three days to drive from one end of his farm to the other. I told him 50 years ago we had a gto as well.
For me I ended up with 100% Audioquest, dragons for 2 high current cords and Hurricanes for everything else, except for speaker cables, where I went Nordost Valhalla 2. Based on this thread I’ll likely go Hurricane High Currents for the subs, which is not cheap…. Might see if I can wait and get a used pair. Will need 3m lengths though.
Considering REL's sterling reputation for building excellent sounding subs I would be very surprised if they risked that reputation by including inadequate power cords with their speakers for the sake of saving a few dollars. If it were me I would use the stock power cords and spend my time and money on improvements that really matter such as better preamps, amps, speakers, etc.
I did actually chase the unicorn with cabling for my main system l, and am now done with that, after testing loads of cables and driving myself and my family nuts blind AB testing many cables. It’s definitely rabbit hole that once you change one thing, it sets you down a path! Thankfully I’ve emerged from it and my system is better as a result. I now view cabling as a primary component of my system - almost as important as an amp or speakers even, that can make or break a system. I found what many others have found, that speaker cables and signal cables make the largest differences, in a few primary areas: tonal balance, transparency and speed. As you move up in grade I found them to be more revealing. Power cables I found to also impact these areas, significantly, but less so. I found that the difference moving from a middle of the range power cable to a highest end power cable adds space detail and air AROUND the vocals and tones. For me it was the difference between having your system play music vs having your system present the music in a way that seems as if the performers are in front of you in your living room. Interestingly my non-audiophile wife and daughter also noted these differences and (blindly) picked the exact same cables that I thought sounded best. My daughter said “this makes it sound like the performers are on a stage in front of us and the other one doesn’t”. The only problem is, while they clearly heard these improvements, they just didn’t care! Oh well.
Of note, in many cases more expensive cabling didn’t translate to a sound I enjoyed more. I found I didn’t care for the very pricey Audioquest speaker cables (tested Firebird biwire and I found I also didn’t care for the top end Transparent speaker wire. In some cases I found the top end of different brands to be equally good but just a different style of presentation (top power cords from Audioquest and Shunyata). And in yet other cases I found top end cords to be entirely lacking in something (Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord was very obviously missing bass energy of other cords). All verified with blind tests, and all likely results specific to my system.
Very happy I went through that process, but I’m also very glad I’m done with it now!
@kingharold- Boring! Actually, I mostly started dabbling with cables out of a curiosity to see if I could hear a difference with my own ears and my own system. The end result was yes and a very nice improvement in my system. The experience didn't convince me to chase a unicorn as that's not my style.
@nyev- Most audiophile cables are beyond anything that I'd consider reasonable. I started with the $100 Chicago interconnect and proved to myself that interconnects did make a difference in my system. The result of pleasing enough that I opted to see what difference there might from jumping up the lineup a bit. I needed out over the price sheet and decided that the $200 Yukon was the best value as the next level up in the same series was $500 and more than I'd ever spend and in the other series the Red River and Mackenzie are both triple balanced cables that are not optimized for RCA, so it seemed silly to pay for a design that was intended for XLR cables. Audioquest confirmed that double balanced is better for RCA and triple balanced is better for XLR and that all lines will be switching over time to like Yukon to use difference cables for each type.
Probably overkill but I'm using Anticable power cables for my REL S510's. I think they're great cables for the money, especially when found used or on their clearance page. I also had customer high level cables made by schmidt customer audio cables, which I think made a bigger difference than the power cable. I like having banana plugs on the cables but make sure if you're running dual subs that may need to have the red and yellow cable terminated together.
@mceljoInteresting you noticed that in the Audioquest price list too…. As I am also an ultra-geek I’ve perused that guide many times, often with a sinking feeling when I see where the prices can go (Dragon Zero + Bass biwire holy crap…).
That said, I noticed a few pricing discrepancies like you noted with the much lower priced sub cable. Also of note is where their RCA interconnect and USB and digital cords top out, which is thousands less than their top power cords and an order of magnitude lower than their top speaker cables. I actually can’t believe that their top USB cord costs less than $1k. In comparison, Nordost has USB and RCA cables that cost many, many thousands more. I believe Transparent digital cables also top out at a “reasonable” price too.
But you may be on to something. I tested the $6k Nordost Valhalla 2 USB against my $650 Audioquest top of the line Diamond USB. The Nordost was better, slightly but noticeably, in the mid and upper ranges. A bit more solid, confident and well formed. Bass was super clean, but there was less of it with the Nordost. Ultimately for that cost, I felt I could get further with other upgrades per dollar spent, and I am now perfectly happy with my Audioquest Diamond USB cables. And this is coming from someone who owns Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables and jumpers, and two Audioquest Dragon high current power cords (each of which I feel individually made a worthy difference).
Long story short, maybe Audioquest doesn’t bother with ultra mega costly cables when there are not sufficient benefits.
This is kind of a random way to approach this. I was looking at the Audioquest price book and noticed that their most expensive subwoofer cable retails for $340 for 2m. Contrast this with their most expensive interconnect that retails for $2,750 for 0.5m. Maybe it's an indicator for the amount that cable can impact the subwoofer signal.
My buddy said before I or we dismiss your claims we should get your reference point..it all comes down to what you own or have tried in audio.Tell us about the different power cables you've tried and on what associated gear...maybe that will explain things better to the I'd say majority who invest in power cables and believe they make a difference...so let's hear it please Mr GTO
@1971gto455hois simply applying common sense logic which I 100% agree with! I don’t get any troll vibes here but who knows I could be wrong. @1971gto455ho ‘s common sense is enough for them not to attempt a blind test between a stock power cord and a premium cord, on a premium and highly revealing system. If they did try this, and they have an audiophile ear, the difference would be blatant and obvious. Even my 15yo daughter can easily tell the difference in a blind test (not that she actually cares about the difference which is another matter!)
If I hadn’t been subjected to a blind test by a bored sales guy who had no intent to sell me anything (because I couldn’t afford anything) all those years ago, I’d probably be siding with all the power cord naysayers!
Whether the vendors should need to charge as much as they do for premium cords, that is another topic… I’m not claiming to know the answer but man it seems like they must have massively high margins. This is evidenced by the fact that it always seems, in my experience, that retailers can give bigger discounts on cords and cables than they can for anything else.
The cables I was referring to was A/C power only. I do see value in researching interconnects and speaker cables. Perhaps if one chooses to read then critique they should stay on topic. As for the hobby my ‘thang’ is impeccably well engineered and formidable. Have a nice day…buddy
1971gto....great user name but your post not so much....if your just trying to stir the user pot that's one thing but if you honestly can't hear a difference changing cables ie power,speaker,ic....get a different hobby, audio is not your thang.
When I was like 23 a bored guy in a HiFi shop, who obviously knew I couldn’t afford anything at all in the store, did a blind test with me using stock power cords, $300 cords (which blew me away at the time that they actually existed) and a cord that costed thousands. System was Krell monoblocks feeding B&W 800 speakers. I had never heard a system worth more than $8,000 up to that point. Anyways, I correctly picked the right cable every time. Being able to blind test and pick the cord with 100% accuracy was all the proof / measurement that was needed.
I can still perform this test with 100% accuracy at home. Really, no other measurement matters if you can objectively hear the difference and identify the cord without knowing which cable is connected.
@1971gto455ho- I assume that you believe that every audible difference can be easily measured. I was a cable skeptic for the most part until a few months ago. I got the itch dabble in the voodoo that is all things audiophile and opted to start with a pair of Waudio power cables that I picked up on Amazon for under $50 each. I honestly didn't have high expectations and figured that the 10 awg cables would maximize whatever current capacity was available audible or not. I put one on my Pathos Classic One MkIII and the other on my SACD player. I immediately noticed a significant difference and then realized that I was listening using my DAC so the only change was the power cord on my amplifier. I honestly had mixed feelings about the change because it was far more realistic sounding, but also was more sterile. I considered the change to be objectively better, but part of me did miss the more full sound. As a side note, I immediately didn't like the results with my SACD player and moved the power cord to the DAC where I've never noticed any difference from the power cord even after getting a more expensive Pangea for it. My experience with the power cord on my amplifier convinced me to try a lower end Audioquest interconnect (DAC to amplifier) to replace my Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 and the result was that I kept the realistic sound but gained back the full/smooth sound that I felt had been lost. The improvement was significant enough that I moved up the line (Chicago to Sydney) and again noticed an improvement in clarity with the tone remaining essentially the same. I tried an Audioquest digital cable (Cinnamon) and didn't hear any difference compared to the Blue Jeans Cable that it replaced.
What have you heard (or not heard) that has you so convinced that cables cannot result in an audible difference?
Nasty term Troll.. that said they do like to chow down. Perhaps a testing diet of more than a hammer, screwdriver, vice grips, silly stories and imagination. Let’s have Figures, Comparables derived from how / what ? Frequency instrument tests, Low resistance ohmmeter tests, possibly oscilloscope digital and / or analogue, Wow even simple fluke multimeter tests but something ?? We’re hungry feed us ! That said.. Please please hear what I hear.. Just doesn’t cut it !
Here is another interesting story which is a good analogy to the common sense that suggests that cables should have no impact. About 20 years ago I was watching the Perseid Meteor shower, inside a house, from a very large skylight. They were the brightest I’d ever seen them. Red in colour, with illuminated smoke trails behind them. Here’s the thing: I HEARD the meteors. They made a sizzling sound, like a frying pan.
Looked on the internet and it turns out many have heard meteor “hiss”. But, scientists/astronomers stated that common sense and physics suggests that this is impossible! Meteors are too far away, and any sound they might make would trail the visual of the meteor by seconds. But that’s not the experience everyone was reporting, including me. I heard the hiss in sync with seeing each meteor.
20 years passed and I thought I’d research again. Turns out common sense conclusions of astrophysicists were wrong! Now they revealed that it is proven that meteors can make sound - just not in the way everyone thought. Turns out meteors emit radiation. And if you are near a material the radiation can interact with, it can make a hissing sound. Radiation is transmitted at the speed of light which is why the sound accompanies the visuals. This also explains why I could hear the meteors INSIDE the house. And, I was surrounded by art made of sheet metal and also a metallic large chimney for an indoor fireplace. Scientists have recorded this phenomenon audibly and by measuring the corresponding radiation.
An example where common sense and basic scientific fact got things wrong!!
Okay trolls, chow down! Don’t say I never did anything for you!!!
And to the rest of you, thanks, I am planning on using AQ Hurricanes to power my subs!
Like you I particularly feel spending money on power cords for subwoofers isn't the place to start. Neither would I spend money on power cord upgrade on a turntable.
The issue is noise on the power line.
Some comes from your house. Deal with that by installing dedicated lines and a better earth/ground as I have done.
Some comes on the line. If that concerns you, deal with it with an active power conditioner. I remain very sceptical about expensive passive power cords. There is no evidence they can operate as a noise
filter. Valid evidence will take the form of double blind testing. Although DB testing is inconvenient (in more ways than one), the believers should surely be vindicated if there were scientifically valid findings. They fact they do not wish to test suggests they are afraid of the result.
Imo,I have to agree with most of the post here.I run Lessloss on my 3 Rels along with better high level cables. I've also tried AQ tornado.Does it make a difference,?.To me it does.For the added cost does it justify, no.I feel placement and room treatment had more of a positive impact.
Another elongated story void of fact, just a worded story… fact of the matter is there’s no science !!! The overwhelming majority of electricians and highly trained electronic specialists laugh at this garbage. So diddly wad says he hears a difference who cares, One in thousands. I can say I have a degree along with an engineer in the family and am privy to a Studio with many a thousand dollars worth of diagnostic equipment….will you listen to my story ? So the mud slinging continues the BS flows freely and people make money !
I pretty much expect the trolls to emerge whenever posting about cables, lol!!! Trolls are part of the fun. But I also think there are some who legitimately can’t wrap their heads around how better cables can help. These folks simply are new to the discussion and can’t figure out how “the last few feet of power can make a difference when the power has travelled hundreds of miles” etc. I actually just happened on a post where someone was stating all of the usual arguments, posting links to support their case, telling everyone not to waste their money. He was not a troll, but just new to the age-old debate. Others challenged him to go hear the difference himself, and to his credit, he agreed. He clearly stated his plan for the test, and was ready to come back and say he was right. Again, to his credit, he reported back saying he clearly heard the difference a better power cord made, and indicated that he was dumbfounded as to how it could possibly make a difference. He then said “I was wrong”. Something you don’t normally hear at the end of internet debates!
So not every anti-cable poster is a troll. I completely agree it goes against common sense for a power cord to make a difference. And, don’t get me started on USB cords…. It doesn’t make any sense at all, but they make a difference! Tested the very expensive Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cord and yes it does improve the mids and treble. Bass definition was also better, however overall bass energy was reduced. Much like the Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord actually. This is in comparison to my much less expensive Audioquest Diamond USB. In the end I found the improvement to be too minimal for the silly cost, and stuck with my Audioquest’s which are decent. Of note, the length of the cord makes a massive impact and not in the way you think. Longer than 1m gives much, much better performance for both USB and power cords in my experience.
@vonhelmholtzI will give Dreams and Daggers a listen. Thanks for the tip!
I don’t doubt that bass definition and speed can help with subs. @simonmoon, I know exactly what you mean about power cords impacting ambience, soundstage depth etc. That’s what I have heard too. But I also found that in my case, these were the most striking and noticeable differences. I found if you really focus, you hear pretty big differences in bass presentation as well, but it’s simply not what jumps out the most. I even found that with some high end cables bass energy was reduced (Valhalla 2 PC).
Ok..listening to my new favorite artist/recording, "Dreams and Daggers", featuring the absolutely amazing Cecile McLorin Salvant..a 15 on a scale of 10.
Great bass..texture, nuance, dynamic..and yes..my upgrade from Venom to Venom NR improved the clarity/speed..of the bass and I think the NR helped clear up the mid frequencies..which I didn’t realize that they needed greater clarity..What an album..I’m purchasing a second copy and putting it away.
As one who has heard, in blind tests, the difference between PCs, I am more than a bit dubious as to how a much better PC would make a difference on subs.
The reason why I say this, is because ALL the differences I've heard in PCs, is with subtle spatial cues (ambience, soundstage depth and width, image specificity within the soundstage, etc).
So, from my experience, I am not seeing where a high end PC would make a difference.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
