I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
The two transducers in a system.
I bit the bulllet and bought a Lyra Atlas SL for $13K for my Woodsong Garrard 301 with Triplanar SE arm. I use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. My $60K front end. It is certainly, by far, the best I have owned. I read so many comments exclaiming that Lyra as among the best. I had to wait 6 months to get it. But the improvement over my excellent $3K Mayijima Shilabi was spectacular-putting it mildly.
I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name.
For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!
This got me thinking of what could be possible with a different kind of cartridge than a moving coil. That is, a moving iron.
I have heard so much about the late Decca London Reference. A MI and a very different take from a MC. Could it be better? The World’s Best? No longer made.
However Grado has been making MI cartridges for decades. Even though they hold the patent for the MC. Recently, Grado came out with their assault on “The World’s Best”. At least their best effort. At $12K the Epoch 3. I bought one and have been using it now for about two weeks replacing my Lyra. There is no question that the Atlas SL is a fabulous cartridge. But the Epoch is even better. Overall, it’s SQ is the closest to real I have heard. To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. Everything I have read about it is true. IME, the comment of one reviewer, “The World’s Best”, may be true.
Dear @mijostyn : I never had the opportunity to listen your MSL cartridge but I owned two of what I think is around best best cartridges design that Matshudira made, I'm refering to the Luxman LMC-1 and the Supex SDX-1100R.
Both are very low output: 0.1mv for the Lux and 0.2mv for the Sup and in both obviously that with that output levels the internal impedance in the order of 1.5ohms-3ohm.
The stylus shape were hiper-ellipthical and that today not line contact- Sup with ruby cantilever and I can't remmeber the one in the Lux.
Both cartridges tracking very well and with low weigth for a LOMC cartridges: 5grs.-6grs respectively.
Very good experiences with and I regret to sold the Luxman.
It is official for me now, the luxury of HiFi at hand, is now removed, as a result of nearly all the collection of ingredients being crated for Storage.
LP's, CD's, Cables, Valves and Ancillaries, along with boxes of buried parts are rediscovered, to be promptly buried once more, are now Packed.
Next will be the Source Devices, the Vinyl equipment requires a very delicate hand and thoughtful methods for the storage. I have also put a few Tonearms out for long term loan, to assist with some of the upcoming comparisons being arranged.
The Cart's and DAC will be kept at hand, to be used in future comparisons, and I believe a few Bake-offs are to be arranged prior to the Xmas, with CDP's, CDT > DAC's and I believe a Steamer > DAC, when undertaken at one home.
These usually are carried out on a few different systems, as past experiences show, there are surprises to be found, Synergy is useful description and when believed to be present, is a wonderful encounter.
Not always does a most impressive item of equipment on one system, deliver to the same degree of impression on another, on the odd occasion may have even been the least impressive.
How I am going to miss Trying out a new purchased music in the comfort of home and How will the Dark Nights of Winter be without a few periods set aside for replays and comparison sessions.
I will be 'Sleeping on the Sofa' in relation to HiFi and very dependent on my invites to HiFi Group activities.
Picking up on the activities of others with their equipment experiences, will at least allow myself a little continued reading and as always there will be follow up investigation if the content captures my interest.
Ah. After three or four days with the Grado Statement 3 on one table, I now have gone back for one album on the other table, with a London Reference (I don't know the reduced VTF made a massive difference) on it. Supertramp's Indelibly Stamped. For Hyperion owners, "..I'll go get a cactus of my own" as it says on track one of side two. There's just no comparison.
@dogberryThe corollary is that perhaps I prefer it tail up to compensate for my declining perception of highs! Try your cartridges at 1.65. IIRC, John Wright told me tracking lies between 1.6 and 2.0 grms—so you're safe. More air, detail, and speed without sacrificing bass.
Sorry, I need to correct my senility-infused confusion. Should read "tail slightly up." Much better highs and leading edge snap.
I’m delighted with my Reference (or Jubilee) with the rear end very slightly down, as judged by the line along an SME tonearm. Both used at 2g VTF. Maybe I can’t hear the missing highs any more.
(So nice, by the way, to get back to actual audio issues instead of personality clashes!)
@mijostyn I know in a previous post you said you had not heard the Gold but curious if anyone else in this thread have listened to the MSL Gold Sig? How does it compare to the Platinum Sig? I’ve had the pleasure of hearing the Gold Sig several times now, for lengthy listens and can hear how quiet it is compared to the other cartridges my dealer has had over the years plus the control and ease of how it plays is beyond anything I’ve ever experienced. So would anyone know of similar or different the Gold is compared to the Platinum?
The more I listen to the MSL Platinum Signature the more I am impressed by it and the Seta L it is attached to. This is the quietest cartridge I have ever owned. Records that I thought were on the noisy side are now reasonably quiet. Quiet records are as close to silent as a record can get....I think. Actually I can measure it. The digital metering on the Lynx Hilo is accurate to within 1 dB. I'll get back on that. Bass and drums have a solidity usually reserved for Hi Res digital. The space between the instruments is well defined. Some people call this "air." Nothing sounds stressed. Tracking has been perfect. I think I can say this is certainly the best cartridge I have ever owned
look at that. you wrote a whole post addressed to me without once saying my opinions, gear or process is flawed. so it is possible.
i have no problem with anyone’s writing skills and respect that English is your second language. that is never an issue for me. your style is never disrespectful. but you constantly finding flaws in my activities is not something i can be around. i don’t claim to be right all the time, and some level of critique is fine. but too much is too much. so it’s up to you how you deal with that.
when you claim "absolute" truths, whether about tubes or digital, or anything, it’s going to cause problems. so know that those type approaches are polarizing and maybe try to avoid them. you cite these absolutes in your critiques of others and it’s very irritating. just think about softening your perspectives a bit and not ’preach’ about them. this idea is one thing that bothers me about your responses to me. while you do this quite a bit, you are not the only one.
i’m not a moderator, or any higher level authority about posting. only that i do care about posts pointed toward me, and so have opinions about those.
@mikelavigne : " attacking the listening opinion credibility, "
Look, my opinion about is that CREDIBILITY can’t be attacked by any one .
Credibility of each one of us in this forum or other internet audio forums is a RESULT of each one of us knowledge/skills/first hand experiences levels.
The credibility/that knoledge levels of any one of us is different because our knowledge levels on specific audio issues could be good one but in many others audio issues is to low knowledge levels. No one knows everything about every audio whole subjects.
So, we are the ones that could " attack " our self when expose our knoledge level in a specific issue where we are not very good and all the time we are exposing that credibility through any single post we write where we show our knowledge level.
Every day is a learning one . As we posted the more our self credibility is too more exposed or in " danger ".
Always are several audiophiles that in some specific MUSIC/audio areas are and have way higher knowledge levels that you or me and to take advantage of their knowledge and skills we have to have an unbiased attitude with a wide open mind.
In certain and specific audio subjects my knowledge levels improved thank’s to read the posts of those better knowledge audiophiles even if as some of them in this forum post things like: " that’s totally false " or " you are way wrong ": well I accepted that if they gave me the explanation about and you know what: i learned and improve that way my knowledge level in that specific issues.
I already told you that in any discussion and depending of each one attitude the game is: win to win . In this " game " there is no place to feelings that I was defeated by.... or they are attacking me......To avoid that we can have our self blog, no I don't do it that way because I like to learn.
That’s my overall way of thinking, problem could be that I’m not polite mainly for my bad english where the words meaning to me are different to other gentlemans meaning.
What’s true in that " no polite " is that if my common sense and knowledge tells me that something is " black " I just can’t post that’s is " grey " or " brown ".
I try not post in threads where in the audio subjects my knowledge levels are to low or totally new for me, so I learn just reading to or I make several questions about till I understand the whole subject. I win with this kind of " actions ".
I don't care about my credibility because this human been characteristic depends only of me.
@big_greg " I try to limit my comments and opinions to things that I have actual experience with either in my system or that I’ve heard in a friend’s system. I don’t want to be part of the "noise", ".
This is solely my intent, it is also why I am very happy to meet with others, or travel to meet with others, venues such as in my home, their homes, or a pre-arranged meeting place, where a group are to attend to share in the available experiences from lined up demonstrations.
It is all done under one umbrella, which is to be a ’sociable participant’ within a small group of like-minded enthusiasts. No different to your visit to Mike’s and others you may have choose to spend time with. Where the outcome is usually always that advantages are recognised, amounting to great value. The overall outcome of the encounter, being indelible and very much worthwhile sharing with others.
By increasing my experiences with fellow enthusiasts, is indirectly a route to learn, this extends to learn much about how others are creating their own systems in their own environments.
I have on numerous occasions been left with a curve ball, from one’s approach, something new to me, be it a Brand or a DIY Build or ancillary and have been supplied ’if looking to be affordable’, another item of interest/curiosity added to the ’must’ try out on my system list.
To sense within a Thread, that a communication is present from an individual that is locked away in their own space, Smashing Down on the Keyboard, as an alienated individual. Attempting with a ’futility’ to convince an individual what is right and wrong in their choice, is from my perspective a repellent.
It is very difficult to consider accepting a content from a contributor, who is seemingly without any structured interactions with like-minded kin. A contributor that produces such an impression from my observation, is not a source of supply of information where I find myself content in the information that is being offered, there is not anything being made available that suggests creativity or offers any stimulus, it is quite the opposite.
I am on the side of the individuals who are helping this interest grow and bring into the fold new members who are to participate for the long haul and make discoveries that are very attractive to be maintained in similar ways to the one’s we all have behind and in yet to be encountered. It is not the easiest of tasks to convince somebody with a curiosity/interest in HiFi, that to invest in a System with a Vinyl LP source is a practice worth pursuing.
It is commonly seen through the content chosen to be added to a Thread, that it is very very easy to send these much-wanted visitors away for good.
@mikelavigne, Listening to music together and sharing the experience is a totally different proposition then trying to describe what something sounds like at a 2000 mile distance. In listening together you now have the framework to interpret what that individual is trying to tell you. Now their opinion has meaning.. It is a shame that we are unable to do more shared listening. Perhaps we should form regional groups that get together once or twice a year giving group opinions on this that and the other. Since we are both LZ fans I'm sure we could loosen a few fillings. That has to be the box set of all time. But then there is that Bill Evans Riverside box.....
back it up by inviting anyone to come and listen with me.....anytime. if you were here in my room would you go on and on like your posting? would anyone?🙄
I've been to Mike's. He is a gentleman and very gracious and generous. In talking with him, it's clear that he's humble and while he has a great deal of knowledge, he's also a continuous learner. There isn't a hint of braggadocio or ego, just a love for music.
As far as his system goes, all I can say is wow! It's far and away the best I've heard. He's put the work into his room and has taken a system approach that has resulted in something magical.
This forum is following the pattern of others I've seen, where over time the experienced and knowledgeable members leave because of a few know-it-all egotistical posters. After a while, most of the posters that are left are inexperienced members asking basic questions and then the next level of experienced members start leaving and after a while, the forum shrinks and becomes relatively inactive. After some time, what you end up with for the most part is the blind leading the blind.
There's a level of anonymity and insulation that the internet provides. Some of you might behave in person exactly like you do on the internet, but in real life you wouldn't be invited back to someone's home or to hang out with a group of friends.
I've learned a lot from this forum and others and look for every opportunity to pay it back. In that spirit, I try to limit my comments and opinions to things that I have actual experience with either in my system or that I've heard in a friend's system. I don't want to be part of the "noise".
One fact about the Decca/London pickups with which I’m sure @noromance agrees with me is that they are more critical of the tonearm onto which they are mounted than are just about all other designs. No cantilever, no mechanical damping, a very high level of mechanical energy transferred into the arm tube and bearings, models other than the Reference and Jubilee having a somewhat resonant body---which may be ameliorated by having the stock plastic mounting bracket replaced with the optional Decapod top plate. And the design suffers from a high frequency resonance, mitigated by electrical damping (varying amounts of capacitance and resistance so as to create a "tank circuit". You can read all about it in the writings of Decca enthusiast/expert Harvey Rosenberg of New York Audio Labs).
Once optimized in an appropriate and suitable arm, and amplified with an appropriate RIAA phono amp which can handle the pickups 5mv output (!), the Decca/London’s have an extremely alive, startlingly dynamic, somewhat "forward" (but also reproducing the depth in recordings as do few others) "robust" sound, producing music with great immediacy and presence. The "horn loudspeaker" of cartridges, if you will. Not for sissies ;-) .
I agree with @pindac. I enjoy reading Mike’s posts, thoughts and invaluable insights. He has helped me tremendously in making good decisions over the years.
I hope we can rise above the typical belittling that goes on here by certain members and continue to share our experiences and enjoy our beautiful hobby.
I second that. There's good information on this forum, but it is often hidden behind a smokescreen of verbiage from a prolix few. I started here in 2007, but was unable re-activate my old account. Things haven't changed much.
@mikelavigneYou are one of few who have invested substantial sums into your equipment.
It would be easy if to dislike your commentary on your experiences, if you were to attach yourself and follow certain ways of expressing yourself, as seen used by the minority of contributors, who seemingly are in collusion, in their encircling a member and bombarding them with their superfluous confrontations.
Fortunately, you have stood your own corner and been faithful to your decisions, and made it known how these are beneficial to yourself, and in certain cases have been the correct choice made for yourself.
There is nothing left for you to prove, your budget, your system, your listening environment, your reaction to the stimulus created. The intrusion of others into this, especially informing you of being wrong choices, is insulting, and I can see your affront and resulting action to depart.
Your reporting on your experiences encountered are very welcome.
sorry, but considering my feelings, and your apparent concern that i am not happy, your post above is just more of the same negative ranting.
you continue to try to demonstrate that my opinions are flawed.
From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense . "
my gear is flawed.
Why I posted " makes no sense " : because had not a true foundation but only a cartridge design ERRORS.
my processes are flawed.
The facts that you posted showed your preference for that " long road to San Francisco " with all those " cables/joints between the tonearm output through the line level input in the Dartzeel.
here and there you try to show respect, but then go and step on me again. you are free to do this, of course. but for me, i’m done with all of it.
i do respect @mijostynfor his honesty about not caring a whit about anyone’s listening opinions. and honestly don’t care to be in a forum with him either. nothing personal of course. but i prefer to post with people i would enjoy listening with, and that post as if we are together face to face. it’s just how i am. and back it up by inviting anyone to come and listen with me.....anytime. if you were here in my room would you go on and on like your posting? would anyone?🙄
@mijostynIndeed. All good. I find the Deccas sing at 1.65 grams, tail slightly down. When we were in our teens, we played rock and roll on an ancient Garrard with a ceramic cartridge which did in fact track wonderfully at 10 grams. The non-magnetic penny providing the necessary mass.
@frogman, The problem with your statement is that there are millions of music lovers who "honor" the music by listening to it on systems that many of us would find mediocre. Music is no less valuable to them than it is to any of us. We chose to engage ourselves in the additional hobby of system building. Are we honoring the music to a greater extent by building the better sounding systems than someone who can not afford the expense?
@mikelavigne , Those who know me well know that I place minimal weight on what anybody says anything sounds like. The reason I do this is not to minimize someone's opinion or to critique their listening ability. It is because I have no framework for evaluating what it is they are trying to convey. I have no idea what anybody else is listening to and any comment on sound quality has to be taken in conjunction with what that person is use to listening to. The quality of a person's equipment is no indicator either.
" Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. "
from there the gentleman that post that you can click the " ignore " button posted:
" adding the wires needed to power the field coil. They would have to stiffen up the arm since they would have to travel past/thru its bearings. That would introduce a variable ...."
after that I posted ( ( other that my cantilever-less mistake posts. ) :
" All what surrounds the DaVa including your personal experienced opinion makes me to think for sure ( even that I did not listen to it. ) that that cartridge has to many " errors " around .
Come on Mike, I can’t find out any where the basic cartridge specs. Have you? could you share with all of us? "
followed by:
" and ask Darius for the cartridge specs. All in these forum and in all internet forums want to know about. So and as always your help and advise is welcomed for the audio community every where. "
followed by:
" I was reading word by word of my posts referenced to you and in no one I posted nothing against or qquestioning you what you like it because it’s a personal opinion your opinion of what YOU like and no one can question it.
Even my first post was a " congratulations " for the two new cartridges for the OP and even that I questioned rhe DaVa cartridge and explained the why’s ( btw, a DaVa owner posted that the SS power supply is better and that opinion goes against your friend that said tubes ps is better. ) about I gave its welcome to our high end community. I’m still looking else where for its specs with no luck yet. It’s weird that even Agoners in this thread not cared about especially with a " new kid of the ... ".
then you posted ( btw, in between all these important posts were the digital vs analog endless discussion and R2R too. ) :
" i listen to Dizzy Gillespie’s Big 4 lp pressing on the DaVa Reference cartridge. then listen to a digital transfer.
with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. the DaVa also sounds more real and life like....but that is subjective, the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy.
i can cite many similar occurrences.
btw; the DaVa also surpasses other cartridges too, but not nearly by as much. just more energy.
i love digital. but it cannot do some things analog can do. it smears peaks "
I gave you this answer:
" That’s can confirm what I said about " higher distortions " during LP tracking. That signal energy with the cartridge came with way higher distortions NOT musical information and distortons counts for those higher SPL high peacks. Yes, you love those distortions ( even you posted before an in ironic or not so ironic way that " like the distortions ". I could add that any one of us like some kind of distortions because nothing is perfect and we love our each ones choosed trade-offs. ).
From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense . "
Why I posted " makes no sense " : because had not a true foundation but only a cartridge design ERRORS.
your post and mine came before Darius disclosed the specs that confirm those distortions but not exactly by cartridge tracking but for even a more severe real fact: a 6db cartridge FR deviation..
After all those in my research I found out the facts you posted in wbf and that any one can read.
The facts that you posted showed your preference for that " long road to San Francisco " with all those " cables/joints between the tonearm output through the line level input in the Dartzeel.
I posted that that " long road..." is the wrong road/path for the cartridge signal and gave you all the evidence and true facts why the better cartridge path is a direct one cable from the tonearm output to the phonolinepreamp Dartzeel input. In this sole issue I did not question you why you prefer the " long road " to the direct signal path and I add that at least ( as with the Dava cartridge ) ask for the that tube inverse RIAA eq. deviaiton alond the measures that support the spec and the noise level of that unit and I’m sure that even today you don’t have yet in hand those information as no one other owners of the same unit: this is not your fault and I did not blame you for that but a deep critic to the manufactures irresponsability about: same as Darius and LFD cables manufacturer.
What of all those information posted here is disrespectful with you or what you like?
The heavy and hot disagreement belongs to a different common sense level between you and me: long road vs short path. That’s it and of course Dava high deviation.
As any discussion here there is no winner or beated gentleman but all of us are winners because some of us confirmed through the discussion each one experiences and others because learned about unknow audio products or audio subjects. Don’t you think?
R.
Btw, I never listened the Dava or those SUTs or that tube RIAA eq. but I do listened the Dartzeel and and the Evolution middle line speaker that shares the same ribbon and ceramic drivers that your top of the line model.
I don't post often... but I do enjoy reading your posts, hearing about your thoughts, insights, and experiences with all kinds of different equipment, systems, etc.
I value your presence here as many others do as well.
Please don't leave us.... otherwise, what is the point of us staying here too.
btw, it’s possible to split hairs and also respect listening perspectives. but here it does not commonly happen. the hair splitting gets focused on attacking the listening opinion credibility, especially at higher priced gear. the balance is a forum culture question.
i guess one man’s perspective of listening opinions not being respected, is another man’s delight over splitting hairs over hifi equipment.
so time for me to go fishing. or......be where my listening opinions are more respected. the balance here is just not for me. not really that big a deal. posters here don’t need to know my opinions about gear they mostly have never heard. here it’s more about the trees, i’m a forest guy.
why should i be where i’m mostly a target since i bring listening opinions that are then attacked to feed the hair splitting? does not make sense....to me.
Absolutely true that there are many ways to approach this subject and one of those ways is never losing sight of the importance (for some) of NOT separating the act of music listening from the process of building a system. To do so is an approach that strikes me as wrong headed. A system cannot be SOTA if it doesn’t do a good job of honoring the music. It may be SOTA on paper, but so what?
@noromance, Please and really, I do not mean this as a reflection of you but I have seen people tolerate a lot worse! Any cartridge will track at 10 grams. Don't you remember the days when we put a penny on top of the head shell?
My room is also dead centered and I am forever adjusting my balance. Every record is different. Most of the time it is just a sensation of too much energy coming from one side. The singer's voice will still seem dead center. Just a shift of 0.1 to 0.2 dB to one side will take care of it. Yes, I also can usually tell up front how much it will take. I think the problem is that every system is that much different. Maybe one speaker or monitor is just that much more efficient than the other. The best adjusted systems in the world are at best 0.1 to 0.2 dB off center. Anyway, this is what remotes are for:-)
I would like to straighten the record a little. Listening to and enjoying music is a passive luxury. Building a state of the art music system is an active necessity. They are two very different activities. There are chat rooms and one location at this one where you can gush over the music. Here we split hairs over Hi Fi equipment. There are many ways to approach this subject and disagreement is a way of life in any human interaction. If you can't take the heat go fishing.
Dear @frogman : Thank’s for your post, appreciated.
" BUT Raul knows what a good (accurate) sound truly is. "
That is part of the whole misunderstood because it’s not about me, yes I post what my researh on the post of any gentleman and my common sense tells me.
Again, what I post are only the " facts " I found out respect the issues under discussions and that’s all. Like in this thread normally I post: " I’m not saying I’m rigth " or " I can be wrong ". Everything in my posts is up to you, nothing personal and obviously not " because I know/Bible about.
Dear Agoner’s, as I already posted before I post always made and make a deep research to at least know: the way of thinking of the gentleman, what he likes, which room/system owns, etc, etc and to find out all those and more information I read not only his threads if any but his answers he posted through the time.
Any one of you can be sure I really make my job and in the Mike case I had to read several threads post pages ( over 300 ).additional in wbf and that’s why I posted what I posted to warning him.
From where do you think I posted that: " analog complete and his contradiction about what he posted in Agon digital forum about that I posted in this thread?"
You already know that I knew you are a musician and fortunatelly you are not the subject in this thread.
Do you think that for any one is easy to say to a gentleman of the MIke caliber: what you are listening is totally wrong?, I did it because I have/found out EVIDENCE that no one of you questioned and he neither in all what I posted and when I made the mistake to post that that cartridge was cantilever-less design at the moment that I took in count I’m wrong I posted that I was wrong and my mistake.
I took all that time because for to many years to remember he is an audio friend for me.
R.
Btw, other than @jcarr seller opinions as twose two I don't take care. Useless and only looking $$$$ and Mike has that part of the $$$ they are looking for but this does not justify their " attitude ".
well put! I often find that those who rely heavily on the objective are incapable / uncomfortable forming a consistent subjective opinion. I am by no means suggesting that the objective has no place in audio. I feel that the best use of theory and measurement is to help explain what we actually like rather than as a tool to dictate what we should like.
@mikelavigneAudiogon does not have an 'ignore' button, so you have to do that manually. In this case your enjoyment of this thread would likely be improved if certain individuals were put on 'ignore'. I hope I'm not one of those 😉
I have been a member here for many years and have learned the hard way that it is often best to not engage in one-one dialogue when there is obvious and strong disagreement. I prefer to simply put my opinions out there and anyone can make of them what they will. You have addressed me directly for the third time (I think) on this thread, so out of respect for you I will make an exception; and thank you for your thoughts. Please understand that I may or may not respond further.
Raul, I am not in the psychology business. I normally do not “talk” about my professional life on this or any forum as I don’t want my opinions to be construed as self serving in any way. I am a professional musician by trade and have done nothing else for my entire working life; forty five years now. My performance experience is and has been overwhelmingly in the live acoustic music, mostly orchestral, scenes. I am and have been around the sound of live acoustic music, at minimum, an average of probably four hours each and every day, I know and am confident in what I hear. Replicating that sound as much as possible is my personal goal with audio. My familiarity with that sound is what drives my choices of gear. I bring this up because you and I don’t agree on some audio related issues, the analog/digital, the tube/ss debates and the subjective/objective issues in particular. I believe you know where I stand on those. The “psychology” part:
Although you actually seem to have softened your stance somewhat, the problem as I see it, and what prompted part of my “heavy handed” comment, is that while you do (more so recently) concede that everyone is entitled to like whatever type of sound they may prefer (duh!), your comments usually also include, or are followed by something along the lines of “(yes, everyone can like whatever sound they like), IF they like distortions”. Forgive the paraphrasing. IOW, yes, we can all listen to whatever sound we prefer, BUT Raul knows what a good (accurate) sound truly is. “Respect” has to include at least a modicum of humility.
I won’t question what you hear and how, and based on what, you make those determinations. I know you have a great deal of experience as an audiophile and would not question your preferences. However, from my vantage point, they are still preferences and not absolutes. Neither are my preferences absolutes for everyone. They are absolutes FOR ME and if anyone wants to derive some kernel of truth from them that’s great; if not, that’s fine too.
Enjoy the music. (I will leave the “not distortions” part out. Perhaps you should consider doing the same?
Dear @frogman : As Mike, you know that respect you and appreciate you.
" reaction to the heavy handed style of some and have to wonder if the rigidity in their approach to this hobby kills the fun ............................................................................... Listening to music is not a technical exercise. "
I think that in this thread and almost all threads where I posted and post exist a sever misunderstood that I want to clarify even that I did it and posted in the past.
As other gentlemans @mikelavigne took my posts as a PERSONAL ATTACK even that I told him 4 times in the thread that the main subject was not what he likes ( that’s not under questioning and I did not with any other gentleman. ) but WHAT IS WRONG OR RIGTH but not only Mike but other audiophiles took and take my posts as a PERSONAL issue when IT’S NOT that way. I have not with any of you that kind of ATTITUDE no MATER WHAT and does not matters that looks like that because it’s not.
What I did and do is to share experiences and " facts " not to questioning you of what you like but more like a WARNING that at the end is up to you.
I think that almost nothing I shared to Mike is false, you can read here again and in wbf too. I always make a " research " to have first hand knowledge of what I will post. I don’t post if I have not a good founded facts.
In the other side, you posted:
" Listening to music is not a technical exercise. "
I agree with that statement but thing are that that experience normally is full of technical issue before you can listening.
You can have your targets to enjoy your listening sessions, are your PERSONAL targets: full of subjectivity, objectivity or hybrid, it does not matters.
My common sense and for many years told me and tells me that to reproduce and enjoy the MORE the system reproduced MUSIC the only and main TARGET ( my target, not yours. ) is try to stay TRUER TO THE RECORDING or at least the nearest you can and to fulfill my target I need to put at MINIMUM all developed/added room/system: COLORATIONS/MODULATIONS/DISTORTIONS at each single link in room/system chain. To achieve that you not only need some $$$ but more critical an important that that is to have the " rigth " KNOWLEDE and SKILLS LEVELS: this is the true name of the game and what we like is only a consequence/result of those levels.
Doing that is the way I really can not only be truer to the recording but the best way to ENJOY MUSIC sessions in my system. Specs and technical knowledge and skills are all down there and in your system too.
Dear @mijostyn : " channel balance as a gauge a 0.3 dB change will make a noticeable shift in the center image easily noticed by anyone. "
You are totally rigth and it does not need to be 0.3db but even 0.1db is noted.
My room/system image is dead centered and sometimes ( for several different reasons. ) that " dead centered " shift an almost imperceptible to one side and that tell me that something is wrong down my system other that the LP recording that sometimes image is tiny shifted .
Then that " shift " help me to make a check up to fix it and always with success due that I know very well my system links and nok where looking for.
@noromance , tracking issues not only happens at macroscopic level where you listen to it but at microscopic levels too and cantilever-less cartridge designs have that microscopic issue at higher levels even that you are not aware of it and that higher tracking micro issue modulates/colored what we are listening. You can read here about:
Now, I owned at least two cantilever-less Ikeda cartridges and yes some characteristics of the reproduction sound is just unique like its alivness and immediacy of the MUSIC due that transients are faster than in a normal cartridge designs but as any audio subjects all has its trade-offs and each one of us choose the personal best trade-offs to achieve our targets. I sold the Ikeda's that just can't fulfill my targets and that's it.
The Decca cartridges are something special. My experience has been that even the “lowly” Decca London conveyed certain aspects of musical sound with a realism that no other cartridge I have owned could.
@mijostyn That's fine by me. But do you really think I'm going to sit there and listen to 4 mistracking cartridges for 35 years? I will admit that I had one in a LP12/Ittok back in the 80s and it did mistrack. Perhaps your impression comes from that sort of mismatch. It's easy to carry a misconception based on legacy intel. However, I do not have that issue now and the speed, realism, and clarity of these cartridges can be breath-taking.
@lewm, Digital volume is very specific. 0 dB (0 dBFS) is the highest level achievable in a WAV audio file. Digital volume controls are based on that standard. I have three independent ways of adjusting my gain structure and they all agree with each other perfectly as you would expect. In referring to dB most people are thinking of dB SPL. Where 0 dB is "the sound of a dead leaf hitting the ground in the fall." Anything quieter would be imperceptible. When I talk about how loud my system is playing I am referring to dB SPL as measured by a sound pressure level meter that in all likelihood is not very accurate. When talking about signal volume I am referring to dBFS (decibels full scale) I probably should have mentioned this earlier to get everyone on the same page.
Another issue that frequently comes up is that digital volume controls "are inferior." This was true not all that long ago but now with 64 bit floating point processors the problems related to digital volume control such as loss of dynamic range have totally disappeared. You could lose over 1/2 the data and still be well above the highest sampling rates used.
As @rauliruegaswill testify, digital audio opens up a whole new world of possibilities when it comes to system management and understanding.
@mikelavigne, sorry about your decision to no longer post and I hope that it applies to this thread only. Your comments are always appreciated. I respect and enjoy your approach to this hobby with its emphasis on trusting one’s ears. I understand your reaction to the heavy handed style of some and have to wonder if the rigidity in their approach to this hobby kills the fun and and wonder of the music listening experience. Listening to music is not a technical exercise.
@noromance, either you are a master at caring for your equipment or the people I know who have or have had Deccas are incredibly ham fisted. I have personally heard them miss track on material other cartridges handled effortlessly. I was never enamored by the SQ but I never did have one in my own system. At this point I would never recommend anyone get one unless they really did not care about throwing their money away.
@lewm, thank you and you are right. No human ear I know of can reliably call 0.3dB a change of volume but it can trick the ear into thinking a version sounds better. Using channel balance as a gauge a 0.3 dB change will make a noticeable shift in the center image easily noticed by anyone. Having a digital volume control with resolution down to 0.1 dB I can demonstrate this to anyone. You would not notice it as a volume change just a shift in the center image.
@rauliruegas, As with any generalization there are always ways to fail but as a useful rule If I increase the volume of one of two exactly identical passages 0.3 dB casual listeners will think the louder version sounds better without noticing the increase in volume. I know this because I make this demonstration all the time. I have a digital volume control with resolution down to 0.1 dB. If you are doing this in real time on the same system all that other stuff you mention cancels out. everything you say is true but it is all easy to factor out of the equation.
@intactaudio, it really depends on how you are listening to the volume. If you are just paying attention to a system's volume level then 1dB is a just noticeable difference but if you are listening in a comparative way as you are when listening to channel balance 1 dB is very noticeable and will cause a distinct shift in the center image. This also explains why some systems image poorly. The two channels have to have identical frequency response curves. If one channel is plus or minus a dB here or there the image blurs like an out of focus picture. The same speaker in two different locations will have two different response curves. Variances of 3-5 dB between channels at specific frequencies is common. I have seen upwards of 10 dB!
Actually, if you look at Mijostyn's syntax, he is not wrong: " In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume. "
Literally, this could be construed to mean that, because the human ear canNOT distinguish an SPL difference of 0.3db (because, as Intact Audio stated, 1db is by definition the smallest difference in SPL that can be distinguished by the human ear) then we CAN be fooled by a difference of only 0.3db into thinking there is no difference in SPL between the two respective sources.
Dear @mijostyn : " In order to fool the human ear you only need a 0.3 dB difference in volume. "
You posted the statement as is a " rule " or a measured standard and can't be a rule due to so many variables down there:
- first is that no one has mated ears with the same sensitivity, FR at the same frequency range deviations, almost nothing inside both ears are exactly the same.
- second, the speakers normally are not exactly mated with the need it accuracy for their sound couldbe " leveled ".
- third, your electronics neither and niether the system cables. Time to time I make a check up in my monobloks about: output levels, bias and FR. Even in my phonolinepreamp the the attenuators with SMD resistors are extremely close in its " linearity " but not exactly.
- you can have mated speakers/cables and electronics but you need along those that the whole audio system have very high resolution and very low noise levels.
- four, you need exactly what to look for in the tracks that you are using for those comparisons ( for years I always use same tracks in the LPs and at same SPL and seated at near field position. You need to know exactly how is the sound of those choosed LP tracks: knowing it as the fingers of your hands.
- the db levels where we can be foolished depends of what we are trying to " measure ".
It's not easy to have a general rule with. In my examples/first hand experiences where I learned about detection of distortions that " dull " sound makes me to ask for a little high SPL for the " life come on " but I never did it because I learned it's not necessary to disappears that " dull " /"low SPL" modifiying the attenuators position.
Yes maybe we can detect 0.3db deviations but not always because depends directly of what we are " measuring " through our imperfect ears and imperfect system. In other cases maybe we need over 1db deviation to been aware of it.
Maybe theory is what you posted but is different for any one of us. Normally all of us should detect more or less easy sound in the midrange frequency range but not so easy at both frequency extremes that in reality is what matters the more.
@intactaudioI own and in the past have used a Autoformer of your design during comparisons sessions.
I found the gathering of pre knowledge of the sound level difference of components and the recording the Clockwise/Anticlockwise clicks to work as an easy method for presenting different components in a very close sound level 'to my perception' using the 1.25 db steps as a fine tune.
On occasions, guests would be party to comparisons, I have no recollection of anybody requesting the pre-selected levels needing to be tweaked.
Not at any time do I recall needing to use the other option available to myself to complete a fine tune.
1db as a description does sound like an accurate increment for my ears, my system and in my listening environment.
@mikelavigne , in both times there were gentlemans that " encourage " me to follow posting in the way I did and do with first hand experiences , facts and some " science " and obviously no applauses when some one posted no sense subjective issues, Just like in this thread, I don’t gave you any congratulations ( as all the wbf " friends " of you. ) because it’s not nothing that you did or do it in your room system. You did not improved but merely walked 3-4 steps down the quality system ladder.
The responsability of any good friend is to give advise and warnings on those audio system issues. Your audio " friends " where you are really happy with them only " encouraje " you to follow in the same wrong road and this is what you don’t like because you are in the last 2-3 years accustomed only to applauses/congratulations and any Agoner can confirm what I’m posting here only reading the wbf thread you linked or any other of your threads there.
Before the manufacturer disclosed the cartridge FR spec I told you founding in your posts that something was wrong with but what you posted here and in wbf made that an Agoner pulled the triger for that cartridge and he did it because your posts and he does not took in count the warnings and fact posted here against that cartridge. Do you help that OP? certainly not and I’m sorry for him.
" why i should not post here or attempt to interact with you..."
Mike, sorry but it’s not interact with me it’s interact with the true reality that just you and many other gentlemans just do not likes. @dover is direct as me and you don’t feel the same " interact ", you can read his post in this thread.
The wbf changed you and not for the better.
Btw, one of those wbf that encourage me to follow posting in the same way is
bazelio and his words are down there as like the words of the other gentlemans that like it no applauses if there is nothing to applause. Yes, my styles is way different to the one in wbf .
But here exist a fact: you don’t tell us and telling me what of all what I posted is totally wrong with the explanation/facts where you found it about. I know you have no facts for that or you cdid not wanted to do it.
Even if you do not cosidere any more to ineract with me or to " think " I’m an audio friend I still cosider you as that.
@mijostyn Where did you get this info from? I’ve 4 Decca cartridges and they are incredibly robust in that there’s no cantilever to get destroyed in an accident. They all track splendidly although they can be susceptible to noise from unclean vinyl.
+1 @dogberry
"The Decca London Reference is an awful cartridge. It is a terrible tracker and very unreliable."
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