We as audiophiles have become so desensitized to outrageously high prices for equipment due to the reviews we read. How many times have you heard a reviewer say, "and at $10,000 this amplifier is actually a bargain". Come on man.
If you have a preamp that retails for $3,000, it's likely that the rest of your system totals for around $10-15K, and with all the information we read, we may not even think twice about it.
Think of it this way: What would you do if your wife came home and said she just bought a $15,000 mink coat? |
Roxy, how can you have the balls to say what you did? You should be ashamed of yourself. If OP walks into a store and says upfront, that he has no intention of buying right now and he just wants to look, what the hell else does he need to say? You think he's OBLIGATED to buy just by walking in so he doesn't waste the staffs time? Gimme a break man.
I once called a store to ask to listen to a specific turntable they carried which retailed for $1,500. I told him I had every intention of purchasing the 'table from him if I liked it. The guy actually told me that he has one but WOULDN'T set it up for me to listen to. He then said, if I wanted to listen to the $10,000 'table, he would set it up. YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!?!?!
If I had large amounts of disposable income, I would buy from dealers all day. Honestly I would. It's an unfortunate fact but, I believe brick and mortar stores will MOSTLY appeal to people with such income. Let's be real, the average guy isn't going to buy full retail price. Look, it's 2014 not 1975. There is a thing called the internet and it's a very big place. Sorry retailers, it is what it is, and I don't just mean audio. With the middle class dwindling a little bit more every day, who is going to pay full retail? Wealthy people that's who. In my opinion, you have to be out of your mind to open a brick and mortar store unless you're selling uber expensive gear. That way you can literally sell a couple items a month and still keep your doors open. |
Say what you want about the "grease balls" at guitar center but in my experience they are always welcoming and enthusiastic as well as down to earth vs the stick up the a%% stiffs at the HiFi shops who appear to only be concerned about making a sale. I guess the difference is the staff at guitar center are all muscisians passionate about music and it shows in their customer service.
I had gone in there a few months ago to check out some Adams monitors and the store was packed. Anyway the guy helping me was extremely gracious (tats and all) and spent almost an hour with me talking music and gear and It was a blast. During our conversation I asked him if it bothered them that so many people where in there playing the instruments and messing with all the gear with no intention of buying it and he looked at me and said "nah man we love this place we get paid to do what we love and when they have the money the always come back and buy it here"
Needless to say I did not buy any speakers that day but I have returned a few times since to buy some for my daughter, and per my recommdation a few friends have purchased Adams from there as well. Sure I could have got them cheaper online but why would I when the service is so good and the return policy is outstanding. |
I don't believe anyone on here is advocating the op go in and waste the salesman's time. In my experiences with shops most of the time store is empty and if the sales staff is busy I wait until they are finished before I ask questions. Most often I want to sit and listen to something that is set up already. How is that wasting their time? When I visited the shops in Seattle every sales person told me essentially the same thing. Go ahead and look around and feel free to ask questions or let us know if you would like to hear something. Is that so hard? |
To explixitely answer the OP's question, yes, it's absolutely cool to walk into any store that holds itself open for business |
Absolutely!
you would want to stay current so when the up-grade bug visits, you will be ready. Also, some companies offer new gear every year, it is good to see and hear the updates.
Keep us posted. |
IMO Mapman and Bcgator have unveiled the issue central to this B&M discussion. I believe that genuine and real customer service is a lost art. Typically what we experience today is only lip service. This lip service is ultimately just another marketing tactic to drive sales. It isn't service at all. Consumers know this. So, now that customer service has been effectively removed from the equation, what do we have left? Product performance and price! We live in an age of disposable commodities (which impacts the product performance), and I believe this is partially a result of this lip service. This is why the sub set of price sensitive consumers is so substantial now. We have a generation (perhaps two now) of consumers who know nothing of true customer service. Nevertheless, I firmly believe that consumers who experience true customer service find it attractive and will be willing to pay for it. I think this is true in all aspect of the market as well. |
I think that approach makes a lot of sense, Whart, and is respectful both of the dealer's time and your own. |
I think it depends on your expectations. If you just show up at a store and expect to demo a particular combo of gear that isn't already set up, you aren't likely to get the time and attention that you need. For starters, the owner or salesperson may already be busy with another customer.
If you are just browsing, fine, but I've still found that, unless the dealer knows you, you are better off making contact and arrangements first. Obviously, one can do whatever makes them happy, but if people complain about not being treated 'right' at a dealer's, they should consider how to approach the process in a way that will maximize service and minimize attitude. At least that's been my experience over many years, dealing with a variety of so-called 'high-end' products, in audio and other things. And, I've ruled out some dealers simply based on my experience in talking to them over the phone. |
Best simply to listen to one's conscience, IMO. |
"It's only controversial to a small number of audiophiles, in other words .01% of the general population."
That's probably true. Best to learn to better just ignore this kind of noise I suppose. |
It's only controversial to a small number of audiophiles, in other words .01% of the general population. Everyone else understands that people walk into stores and just look around to see what's interesting. If that's a problem for the store owner he should run his business by "appointment only" with a qualification questionnaire and pre-appointment credit check. |
Kick tires in the store then buy on Audiogon. |
It's really funny to me how controversial someone walking into a store is around here. Also somewhat sad.
I thought audiophiles at least had an appreciation for the way things used to be, but times have changed it seems. |
P.S.: FWIW, I would rarely just walk into a dealer 'cold'; instead, i would call ahead, usually try to talk to an owner, and tell them I'm thinking of visiting, make it clear that I am serious but not necessarily coming in to write a check on the first visit. I have found that to be very effective. I'm not a time waster- and I don't want to waste my time either. |
Back in the old days, circa the 70's-80's, I used to frequent various hi-fi dealers, and would buy from them. This was in the days before Audiogon and dealers often had trade-ins. (The early Stereo Exchange in NYC used to be a mecca for used high end gear and if you knew what you were after, you could usually find it, and surprisingly quickly- Dave W. did huge turnover back in the 80's). In those days, Singer, Lyric and a few others were around, but everybody had a different take on their preferred dealer, based on personal experience, $ and available lines.
The problem, even in the best of circumstances, with any dealer, is that trying to evaluate the sound of a particular piece of gear through an in-store demo is of limited value; limited not only by the different room but by (usually) different associated gear. Building a relationship with a dealer that permits in-home trial is invaluable. Yes, you are paying a premium for this kind of service. But, it can also help you avoid the cost of churning through equipment. And, the right dealer will provide loaners if your equipment has a failure (these days, it is very rare for a dealer to do its own service- it seems that they all rely on factory (authorized) external service).
Among the hi-end dealers in NYC, one of the best I've encountered is the guy at High Water Sound; he spent a half hour on the phone with me years ago discussing step up transformers for phono stages- none of which he carried. I've met him briefly at shows and he seems to be a stand-up guy. (If I weren't still committed to the gear I have, he'd probably be one person I'd be happy to deal with). I have a good relationship with another dealer who makes house calls, lets me do in-home sessions with gear so I can get my head around what I'm hearing and is a generally good guy. I've found a few others that are like him, in other parts of the country, but I think you almost have to choose the dealer as carefully as the equipment. I've met a few dealers over the years who are arrogant and clueless on customer service and I respond by going elsewhere. The worst is paying the premium for so-called 'high end' dealer service and not getting it. |
Lot easier to pick out guitars and play while the sales guy is eating his lunch or selling some else a Martin guitar. Poor analogy. Audio salesman have to move around 40 to 500 pound equipment and stay with you while they lose a sale to another person who just bought a Wilson speaker. |
Funny, I own 12+guitars, not sure exactly cause I buy and sell those too, as well as 4-5 systems worth of equipment. I buy guitars more easily because I have multiple local stores and can play the guitars. I am encouraged to do so when I vwalk in. I have dropped $1500 unplanned because of that as it made me get a guitar I had to have even though I didn't know that when I arrived. The 2 local audio stores don't really operate that way. One guy has always acted like he was doing me a favor to talk to me! I tried to buy Gallo Ref3.1s from him for 6 months but he always tried to get me to buy something else...Totem or Dali. Eventually, I gave up and went direct only to be told by the manufacturer I had to go to the dealer.I got Ohms instead. If the audio guys were like the guitar guys I would have more new audio! |
Maybe the high-end audio salons should hire grease balls with tats from head to toe and let people off the street play Metallica records. |
|
.
Guitar Center may be on to something. My 17 year-old son goes to their Hollywood, CA store at least once or twice a month. When my son walks in, they give him a guitar pick and he goes and picks out an axe and plays it. He says sometimes he's there for an hour or two. He says lots of other teenage musicians are there doing the same thing. He says it's mostly adult customers are there playing the instruments. Over the years he's bought pedals, microphones, strings and lots of accessories ...but never a major purchase. He has his eye on a $3k-$4k Gretsch guitar, and he's been saving his money for it. He says he's gone and picked out a $5k axe, plug it into an amp and start playing. He says they have about 30 amps on the floor for customers to use to plug into and play. If you've ever known any guitarists, none of them ever own just one guitar, most of them own several. I believe Guitar Center is building a huge base of future loyal customers.
. |
The reason to have a brick and mortar store is to draw customers into your store. Browsing is part of the experience of a conventional store. I'm sure we all experienced walking into a store not really intending to buy anything but wound up purchasing something. Works the other way too.
Personally, if I'm walking into a store and I'm just browsing, that's what I say- just browsing. If that makes me a time waster, shame on the merchant. Is it really any wonder b&m stores are dying and e-sales are where the action is?
It's only disdain for the consumer that demands every walk in customer lay down cash on every visit. I'm sorry, but generally, I owe a retailer, who is more than happy to earn a 40 point markup, nothing at all. In order to earn my hard earned cash, a retailer must distinguish himself and bring some value added. Viewing me as a time waster if I'm just looking does not equal any value added. |
One of the things I love about our wonderful hobby is a visit to a terrific audio shop for a few hours of just "hanging out." I've spent many a fun filled afternoon at such places as Sound By Singer, Lyric HiFi, Stereo Exchange, Altair Audio, Audio Connection, CSA Audio, Innovation Audio, Adirondack Audio-Video, and many other high end retailers over my thirty years as "a music loving audiophile." I have always been totally "up front and honest" with the sales staff ..... sometimes I was there to plan a purchase, and other times I was just there to enjoy music played on systems that I could only dream about actually owning. For me, this is an important part of our hobby and I don't recall ever misleading a salesperson or being treated rudely by one. And over the years, I have many times referred somebody to one of these fine shops and many major purchases have been made because of my recommendations.
If we are to allow our high end audio passions to develop and to allow the high end industry to continue to grow, we need to constantly try to bring new people under our wings and encourage them to listen to quality components and systems. The best way to do these, besides inviting "audio newcomers" into our homes, is to encourage them to visit high end stores to "hang out and listen." Perhaps more systems will be sold and more music loving audiophiles will be developed. For me, it all started in 1973 with a Panasonic all-in-one receiver/8-track player-recorder/turntable/speakers combination ....... After many, many hours in all those great stereo stores, I eventually worked my way up the equipment chain, having spent many thousands of dollars on a lot of different gear.
I am incredibly happy with my current system and I love listening to music. I owe it all to all those wonderful sales people at all the great stereo stores for the chance to "listen and hang out." |
Taters, there are absolutely ways to lease audio gear. I have leased gear to corporations and movie production companies, and very occasionally to individuals. The problems are:
1- most dealers just don't know how to work with a leasing company, and
2- it's not economically feasible for a leasing company to write a "small" (under $50K) lease, and for less then 3-5 years, and
3- most buyers do not want and would not select a lease option
An installment purchase (different from a lease) is probably a better way to go. When I worked for a small audio chain in the late 70s it was very common for most retailers to offer contract credit purchases. These days, most buyers simply use a credit card for the same purpose. |
I haven't stepped inside a B&M dealer in more than 12 years because I'm not willing to pay their prices, and therefore won't use their time. Nonetheless, the best thing I've done to build my systems (I have three) has been to develop a strong relationship with a local dealer, one who works out of his house, sells quite a bit online, is willing to discount, and comes to my home with components. I've spent many, many $K with him. It's a different kind B&M sales strategy, more of a hybrid, and it's one that works.
From my end, the keys to making this approach effective is for me to do a lot of research on the pieces I'm considering, and then be willing to gamble on whether or not I'll achieve the synergy I want. It takes time and careful judgment, along with the willingness to take some losses, but in the end it works for me--with surprisingly few glaring mistakes. Just part of the hobby.
Besides, I've found that I can't really tell what anything sounds like until it's in my room and I've spent quite a while massaging the system around it. Very tiny changes in a high-rez systems will have big consequences for sound; very few--if any--of those myriad contingencies are controllable outside of one's own room. B&M auditioning is therefore pretty much a waste of time for me. I don't bother going to audio shows, either, for the same reasons. |
No one's going to lease audio. It's a huge depreciating asset. If there was a way to lease it they would of done it 30 years ago. |
After hearing about all the tire kicking audiophiles the last place I would want to work is at a high-end audio store.
The person that said the tire kickers should go to the audio shows is dead on. They don't care if you buy or not. They are paid to run the show and answer questions. |
.
Chrshanl37, I'd be interested in leasing. I think it would be a great idea.
. |
Begator I agree with you. I want to share with you what a salesman once told me that I'm so good I can sell anyone who walks in that door. Today most salespeople who are young kids are not that good and a lot don't even know their products. It's a different time today where personal care does not seem to be as important. |
No offense Bcgator but you just contradicted yourself by comparing Ruth's Chris and Applebees. That's like suggesting enthusiasts avoid spending money at Radio Shack and spend it at Best Buy instead. Unless of course you were kidding in which case my sincerest apologies. Good day sir. |
I know exactly what you mean, Jwm, we're on the same page. I agree there's a subset group of buyers for whom price is the only consideration - nothing else matters. I just wonder if too many salespeople prematurely "give up" on potential customers thinking that they are part of that subset group, when in fact all they need is the right salesperson to look them in the eye, speak to them respectfully, ask the right questions, and show them the value of an interpersonal relationship. Some people just have to be shown the way - until they've eaten in a Ruth's Chris, they think Applebees has the best steak :-) |
Begator I'm for dealers, there are people who don't care and will only by for the best price and that is the internet. |
75 percent of folks going into a retail store do not plan on buying in the moment. Further, hobby stores, which for most audio is, thrives on the culture in nature's and creates, which means creating relationships with like minded folks while discussing music and equipment. The person who frequents shop to shoot the breeze, talk music, equipment and to listen to reference systems they may not be able to afford build a reciprocating relationship with the merchant that leads to future sales and sales referral.
The merchant who wants you to buy now or leave is just pushing boxes and ultimately doing the community a disservice. This person needs to open a grocery store or gas station.
Anyone who has been in the expendable income retail understands this and uses it to their advantage. Every satisfied customer leads to more....a turned off potential customer leads to a loss of future revenue exponentially. |
Roxy54 has gone too far.
If am not mistaken, dealers generally make 100% profit on new gears (e.g manufacturers sells a gear to dealer for $1000 which then retails for $2000).
If a dealer expects each and every person entering his shop to buy a gear from him then the dealer will quickly make billions and his sales persons millions.
The 100% profit given by the manufacturers is meant to be spent on attracting potential customers by arousing their curiosity, fueling their interests, assisting them making the right choice, and helping them overall.
This is called marketing. |
You said it Cerrot, I completely agree. Relationships have value.
JWN, you're not wrong, you can get plenty of new or near-new equipment on Audiogon at great prices. But we're not talking socks and t-shirts here, items which you buy and forget. Audio equipment sometimes requires adjustment/repair, and it's good to have people in the business who are on your side. There's great value in paying extra and cultivating a relationship with a local dealer in case you need help somewhere along the line. Additionally, many/most B&M dealers also have a healthy business dealing in pre-owned equipment, in which case they can be competitive against Audiogon while still offering the benefits of a local relationship. When I was looking for an integrated tube amp, I couldn't afford my dealer's new Leben, but I could afford their mint condition pre-owned ARC VSi55. Now, I could have saved a couple hundred waiting for that to pop up on Audiogon instead, but I wanted a local resource in case I need help with tubes, fuses, whatever. I was willing to pay more to have a local "partner" I could call for help.
Also, many B&M stores have awesome trade-up policies giving you full credit on your purchases towards new gear.
Not to go off the reservation here, but we are social creatures. We're built to move around, interact with others, shake hands, have eye contact, talk, share ideas and commerce. We're not supposed to sit in one chair, in our underwear, avoiding sunshine, clicking a mouse all day having things brought to our front door. |
One should not overlook the importance and necessity of having a good relationship with your local dealer. How could you not? Theres probbaly 20,000 people in the whole country who are into hi end audio. One (or two of them) are at your local dealer. How could you not want to get to know them? Its like being a book nut but never going to the library cause you get everything on amazon. Youre saving a few pennies but missing much more. An experience... |
Unfortunately you can find anything new you want on audiogon as well for prices way below brick and mortar. Why is this so because audiophiles are always buying and selling. |
When I was a teenager, and that was quite some time ago, I used to go into an audio store after school and hang out with the salesman and listen to gear. They knew they weren't going to make big bucks off of me, but not much was going on, and they were kind and generous and helped me develop into this hobby. Ultimately I did buy a Nakamichi 582 cassette deck from them that thousand dollars, which was a lot of money back then. |
I have a question....if your local audio shop offered leasing would any of you be interested? I know I would and I have often wondered why this isn't a common practice in the B&M's. |
JWM wrote:
>>If people don't want to bother an audio salesman with no intentions of buying they can go to an audio show instead. There are so many now that one can go and hear without buying anything and not feel guilty. The shows have way more equipment and so many people under one roof that you can have a great time.
IMO, audio shows are great for looking but usually not so great for listening or evaluating audio gear.
>>Are you kidding? Audiogon allows 40-50% off of retail. Brick and Mortar if your lucky 10-20%. These people are not going to buy there no matter how nice the salesperson talks.
Is it really fair to compare a B&M store to Audiogon? Audiogon provides a space to sell (mostly) used gear. Most B&Ms forcus on new gear, although some sell or specialize in used gear. I think that you will typically find that the price for almost any piece of used gear sold at a B&M would be within spitting distance of the Audiogon price for the same gear. The market determines the value (price), not the seller. |
Deja Vu Audio outside DC is very accommodating and has great equipment and knowledgable staff. |
I've been in Lyric twice, both times when the shop was near empty on CHristmas Eve, and the person there, who appeared to be a manager or owner, was very accommodating and courteous. HE greeted me immediately, asked if he could help me, and I told him I was visiting from out of town and mostly just looking but had general interest in good audio gear. He proceeded to demonstrate his top of teh line big rigs in the back rooms. Very nice! I appreciated it and always try to go back when in NYC.
I've also been to Sound By SInger in NYC twice while visiting under similar circumstances and had more mixed results there. I think they closed up shop shortly after that for whatever reason. |
stop the whining...any experienced seller knows you have to qualify your buyer and opportunity, and calibrate your time investment accordingly. That's just basic sales skills |
"So, my opinion is to establish good relations with the B&M stores and dealers."
No doubt always a good idea to operate with good faith.
There are limits though. Good relationships are a two way street and can be hard to accomplish when goals and priorities are different.
Personally, I have bought recently both online and from a couple local B&M stores. I am willing to pay a premium for good customer service. Good sound in home audio is not easy. Most people need the kind of help that only someone knowledgeable in the area can provide. That has value.
It would not be proper for one to go into a store, spend considerable amount of time with a consultant there, end up liking the product being proposed, and then buying elsewhere for less.
Thing is there are many reasons why a particular sale might not occur and the seller will never know the reason for sure. SO best to just invest their time wisely if truly so busy, and let the cards fall where they may.
Many times these days when I go into audio stores, the stores are mostly empty and salespeople not busy helping others and seem more than happy to spend some time chatting on whatever topic I might have in mind. |
I understand that times are tough in the B&M shops. It's a very tough business to be in, now, more than ever. That said, there are clear success stories out there. Obviously, there's many variables involved with success but this thread got me to thinking of an old mentor from my younger days. He was one of the most successful salesman in a team of successful salesmen. Not naturally good looking but he made himself very attractive. Sharp, aggressive, funny, smart, high energy. He was like a loveable shark! I'll never forget him telling me once how it didn't matter what the product was, he considered himself a SALESMAN 1st and foremost. My favorite quote of his was "I should be able to pick a turd up off the street and make you feel like you MUST own it!!". I loved this guy (RIP). Because of him (and others like him that I used to deal with) I've always seen the stereotypical audio sales guys as being kind of whiney. |
Brick & Mortar high end audio stores are a necessity. People that come into the stores, simply to demo equipment and buy online are the reason why the B&M stores are disapearing. That doesn't imply that the store dealers shouldn't have competitive prices. They should. But on line typically meant that no state taxes were applied. This gives the on line dealers a distinct advantage over B&M stores. However, I miss Tower Records, circuit city and other stores. I really miss book stores. I love the smell of books. but, it is really hard to find book stores now. I've spent years establishing a relationship with my favorite store in San Diego. Stereo Design. I'm confortable going there. I still go into other stores to see what they have and the attitude is the same everywhere (unless they know you). They look you up and down first, determined without speaking a word to you that you can or can't afford their stuff or that you don't know anything about music or equipment and treat you like one of the lost boys. Until, that is, they ask (as they always do) what equipment do you currently have. When you tell them, their faces change immediately. I was in Stockholm a year or so ago with my ladyfriend at the time and visited a mid to high end audio store. the salesperson was to say the least indifferent boarding on rude. I was actually looking for a small system for my friend but wasn't getting any attention at all, which was funny to me. However, when he asked what I had, and I told him, his attitued changed immediately. So, this attitude isn't solely attributable to America. When I left, I had no intention of ever doing business with them again. Here's the thing, when it comes to me spending my money on anything, the salesperson cannot treat me as if he is doing me a favor by taking the time to speak to me. I'm spending my money, not the other way around. I live in Los Angeles, and just like what was presented in the movie Pretty Woman, in LA, you never know who is walking in the door. They could be dressed in jeans and be incredibly rich. you just don't know. So the best thing to do is treat all potential customers with respect and consideration. Because that one customer may be your best sale of the week. I go to my favorite store to spend time listening in their best listening room on the best equipment just to see/hear if my system is lacking in some way on my music. And you know what? They let me listen. Because the know me and they know if I'm inclined, I will upgrade. But, they also know that I typically come in with no intention of buying anything. Doesn't mean they can't show me something to consider does it? Also, their used equipment room has some very nice used equipment. But for new equipment, I will buy from them every time. I appreciate them, their knowledge and consideration.
People that go to B&M stores to try on shoes or clothes or listen to high end equipment and then buy it on line should never complain that the stores are disapearing. What did they think would happen?
So, my opinion is to establish good relations with the B&M stores and dealers. When purchasing new equipment do so from them. Nothing wrong with used stuff. For some things, that is the only way to go in order to afford them. But, when I get the time and money to upgrade my amps to the Audio Research REF 250 amps, I know where I will buy them.
enjoy |
.
Map......"Now I now" .... (chuckle)
. |
Go to a HIGH END Audio show instead there you can kick many tires!! |
Whoops, I meant to say "imminently", not "eminently" doomed.
Wrong word. Now I now how to spell the right one properly as well! :^) |
+++++Bcgator!!! Thank you for such candor from "the enemy". |
