VTA on the fly

Perhaps he had no idea of "the advantages of VTA on the fly", but your story as told doesn't prove that, if you made your adjustment surreptitiously.  Do you know approximately how far the pivot moves when you make a half turn adjustment of VTA?  Every one of my 8 or so tonearms has the capability for VTA on the fly, but I would never think of adjusting VTA "on the fly".  I lift the tonearm, make the adjustment, and then drop the tonearm, using the cueing device.

While the record was playing I turned the micrometer one half turn clockwise, and there was according to him the right amount of bass. He then asked me what I did, because he seemed startled, and had no idea.

That's the way I did it with my Graham 2.2 and Conqueror arms. No point stopping when it works smooth like its supposed to. A lot of audiophiles have no idea. I mean of what it sounds like. A lot know the concept of VTA, but hardly any have much experience hearing it. I used to fine tune VTA on every record and write it on the sleeve. Until the Koetsu. With the Black Goldline I could still hear and fine tune it, but unlike the Benzes with the Koetsu it sounded so good it just seemed superfluous. 

My systems improved so much since then you've just made me curious to see if that's still the case. 

The other thing I'm curious to know: clockwise, was that lowering the arm down? 

VTA-on-the-fly is a handy feature, but it’s no magic bullet for phono cartridge setup. That’s because when you change VTA/SRA, you also change VTF and - more importantly - overhang. So if your overhang was correct before adjusting VTA, it will be off by some slight amount after altering VTA.

Some audiophiles in this forum argue that phono cartridge alignment is not critical and that these small changes are of no consequence. I suspect that their systems simply lack the resolution to reveal these changes, and it’s most likely that their turntables are not properly setup.

Or the change in VTF and overhang are so miniscule, when you turn the micrometer typically used to alter VTA on an "on the fly" tonearm by only 180 degrees, as to be inaudible even to a pair of Golden Ears such as your own.  I actually doubt that a half turn could make any important audible difference in bass response, but I wasn't in the room.

lewm

... the change in VTF and overhang are so miniscule ... as to be inaudible even to a pair of Golden Ears such as your own ...

I've never, ever claimed to have "Golden Ears." I'm pretty sure most people can hear what I hear, if they take the time to listen.

I've actually never met an audiophile who claimed exceptional hearing.

Nope. I agree you didn’t claim to have golden ears. And yep, when you change vta all those other parameters change, but my point is that a tiny change in vta such as might be expected by a half turn on a micrometer type vta adjuster would likely make such minute changes to vtf, etc, as to be inconsequential. Which I guess is a subjective way to say I wouldn’t expect to hear a new “distortion” as a result, and I consider my two systems to be highly resolving.

lewm

... my point is that a tiny change in vta such as might be expected by a half turn on a micrometer type vta adjuster would likely make such minute changes to vtf, etc, as to be inconsequential ...

You might be right, but it's hard to be sure. It depends not only on the specific pickup arm and how much it is raised by that half-turn, but also on the arm length (the shorter the arm, the greater the change) and the stylus shape itself. (After all, there is no VTA at all when using a conical stylus.)

VTA on the fly is a handy feature, particularly if you will be adjusting VTA a lot.  But, it may also mean that the tonearm is not being held as rigidly as possible or that the VTA adjustment mechanism will become a source of unwanted resonant behavior.  Some arms, like the Basis Vector arm, have a micrometer for moving the arm up and down which can be adjusted on the fl, but, when the right spot is found, the set screw to the main pillar has to be tightened, and then the micrometer must be backed off so that this adjustment mechanism is no longer in the vibration grounding/damping game.

The ideal would also be something that allows for remote control of the mechanism raising and lowering the arm so that you can listen to the change from your chair.  I don't know of anyone who offers this, although Airtangent had at least a prototype for an arm with remotely controlled VTA adjustment.

I use the ability to change SRA (VTA) easily on the fly during my initial setup of a cartridge. I have found extremely small changes are noticeable once I am very close to my target... prior to being close to the proper target larger changes of SRA do not produce very noticeable changes in the produced sound. I do not change the SRA after spending the time to find the best setup in my system. My final adjustment increments are less than 0.1mm and can take a couple of days to finalize.

i suspect anybody with 30k records is more of a music lover than an audiophile. I suspect 140g to 200g swings in discs far outweigh disc to disc tweaking, but hey have at it if that floats the boat :-) I have clearly lost the “ arms race” with just three arms...ha

enjoy the music. 

I have found extremely small changes are noticeable once I am very close to my target...

Me too. 

My first experience setting VTA was a Glider on the Graham 2.0 arm. Starting from the recommended near parallel eyeball method I listened and it sounded pretty good. Impressively good! Awful lot of guys would be happy and done right there.

Because it sounded so good I assumed it had to be awfully close and so I lowered it down only a teeny tiny little bit. Way less than 1mm. It sounded a whole lot better. So I did it again. Better. After doing this half a dozen times I got the feeling this could take forever at this rate so dropped it down near a full mm. Better. Again. Better! Dang!

Eventually, sure enough, lowering made it worse. When high the balance was thin and tipped up a bit. Lowering brought more fullness. Until suddenly it brought bloat. So back up. Split the difference.

Back and forth, up and down, splitting the difference, interpolating, until finally the sound kind of snaps in with supreme focus, clarity and balance. Those last few micro adjustments were so small, there's just no way anyone gets there without VTA on the fly. No way. VTA on the fly is no gimmick. Its essential. 

Graham accomplished this with a side screw mechanism that came with the downside of being mechanically weak. So Graham added a set screw to lock in once VTA is set. Unfortunately locking the set screw changes VTA and is nowhere near as solid as if it wasn't there anyway. So much for the Graham.

The Origin Live Conqueror arm I have now uses a clever little mod bought from a fellow audiophile. It slides over the arm mounting tube and the arm rests on it allowing smooth VTA with no loss of mechanical stability. Only problem is it has no calibration marks, and causes the whole arm to rotate. So I had to mod his mod with my mod to finally have the perfect mod!
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367The brass ring is his mod, the acrylic ring, measuring marks, and teak wood peg are my mods, and together VTA micro-adjustments can be smoothly done on the fly and reliably recreated in seconds.

Its amazing there are so many audiophiles that obsess over so much of turntable setup, in the most minute detail, spending incredible sums on all kinds of gadgets and gizmo's, then gloss over this one that is probably more valuable than all the others put together.

Perhaps he just loves music and the equipment is just something he needs to get there.

VTA on the fly is ok, works perfectly fine on my SME V, small changes will not affect overhang or VTF, SRA is more sensitive with VTF. 

So to sum up, maybe the OP can answer the age-old question... "can you teach an old dog new tricks"?

small changes will not affect overhang or VTF...

small changes in VTA do affect overhang and VTF. Just in a small way 😊

“So I had to mod his mod with my mod to finally have the perfect mod“

Haha! Love it! You never cease to amuse me, and I always enjoy your comments, millercarbon.
Thanks for the laugh. :-)

Azimuth is also affected......everything comes into play.

Grace 707. Can't do it. Many records I like from very thin to very thick. They all sound great. Not that OCD.

Perhaps he just loves music and the equipment is just something he needs to get there.

My thought exactly. Hard as it may be to believe, some people just use their equipment to listen to music, without obsessing about other stuff.  Strange but true.

My Micro Seiki MA505LS arm on my 401 has VTA on the fly that is very easily and gently moved while a record is playing. It also incorporates a very secure locking method.
Check the arm out on vinyl engine or similar to see how this VTA on the fly works, it is a basic inbuilt feature of the arm design and not a later add on type of system.

While my ears are not as finely honed as drrsutliff, I can easily hear the changes depending upon the quality of the cartridge being used at the time.
The Koetsu Black Goldline and the Ortofon Black Cadenza were very audible to my ears with VTA on the fly change.

Vintage MM carts definitely not so much so.

I am in agreement that small changes do affect the sound.  My final adjustments are always smaller than 1 mm.  I know that, if you do the math, this represents a ridiculously small change in VTA/SRA, but, this can be heard in the way millercarbon described.

But, it may also mean that the tonearm is not being held as rigidly as possible or that the VTA adjustment mechanism will become a source of unwanted resonant behavior.

@lewm The Triplanar is pretty good in both departments. It has a knurled screw you can use to lock it into position. The main adjuster is also very precise. Most of the 'on the fly' VTA towers used today are copies of the Triplanar design which was the first to have it. 

So if the back of the tonearm goes up there are more bass, if the back of the tonearm goes down there are less bass or is it the other way around?
If I'm not mistaken, the high frequencies should also increase or decrease ... is this correct?

Tail up is brighter.

Right. Only its not so much brighter as the initial attack of transients are emphasized over the body of the fundamental tone. When its low its the other way around and you get the tone but not as much attack. So if its high the cymbals are like tssss, when its right on its tinggg and when its low its sort of dinggg. Crude exaggeration but that's the gist of it.

Ralph - agree - the Triplaner is a low resonance tour de force. No mucking about required.

I primarily enjoy vintage tables, and none of the ones I have owned have VTA on the fly. Its one of the features that I wish every table had.  You can get by with padding under the record or shims between the cartridge and headshell, but then every time you change VTA at the cartridge, you need to realign.  What a pain.

I have the vtaf from Pete Riggle on my OL conqueror mkII arm with Benz LPS and you can hear easily small adjustments .
The vtaf with conqueror arm got a v good review on 10 audio.

@millercarbon Yeah. That's what I meant but was too lazy to write. Luckily, you like writing! Spot on, man.

Certainly ’On the Fly’ is needed for perfectionism.

On the Fly VTA (Cantilever Angle) is actually On the Fly SRA (Stylus Rake Angle).

Angle of stylus tip is primary, angle of cantilever is just a guide, a starting place, ’good enough’ if not a perfectionist. You can see the cantilever, thus see VTA; very hard to see SRA, especially the refined miniature stylus tips, ML, Shibata, SAS .... So we start with specs, then listen!

This pre-supposes perfectionism regarding arm tube vertical mounting, tt level, pivot distance, arm/pivot height, overhang, null points alignment, tracking and anti-skating.

SRA, I have read, should be 92 degrees (view from side): top of stylus diamond 2 degrees forward of the tip of the diamond in the groove at the LP surface. Because, ’generally’ the cutter blade is cutting at 92 degrees, top of cutting blade 2 degrees forward.

Others: please jump on this if I have wrongly understood and stated this goal of 92 degrees!!!

Cantilever angles (VTA) vary, cantilevers are shaped differently, tips are mounted different methods/angles, degree of production accuracy vary ... in the end ’this tip’ is the one to align.

i.e. the Shure V15 are named for their 15 degree VTA. When new, that should get you close to SRA. Close, now perfectionism begins.

Old, suspension strength changes, angle changes. Cantilever shafts get bent, sometimes twisted.

Tightening after slight adjustments is required for proper evaluation, some ’on the fly’ systems are not easy to tighten/loosen/tighten.
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Now, thin/thick LPs, i.e. lower or higher groove surface,

IF SRA is correct for thin LP, then, to play a thick LP, the rear of the arm needs to be raised a speck to maintain perfect 92 degrees into the groove. How much typically? Or, set 92 degrees for an average thickness and enjoy.

The problem with averages, like chair or desk height, is that average only fits a small percentage of people, most people (lp thickness) are taller or shorter than numerical average.

My Acos Lustre 801 arm, removable headshell, has the easiest On the Fly system I can imagine, easily adjusted lp to lp if desired. Loosen lock with two fingers, raise/lower with 1 finger, re-tighten with two finders, repeat. Thick LP, change. Back to thin LP, change, takes a few seconds. Mono cartridge typically, or, easily change to an alternate stereo cartridge.

My Russian Blackbird arm includes a built in micrometer lift, wonderful, HOWEVER, the method of tightening/loosening/tightening the vertical post is a nasty and awkwardly positioned allen-head set screw, so it’s tedious bit by bit, PITA, that one get’s set and stays put. It is fixed, not a replaceable headshell, my primary stereo cartridge.

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Removable Headshells allow use of different cartridges (via multiple headshells, multiple cartridges pre-aligned for that arm) . Now, besides resetting tracking and anti-skate, verifying azimuth, we need to consider SRA of that cartridges stylus tip. Mt 801 both allows and excels at that.
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BTW, I happen to believe choice of null points makes more difference than perfection of a very close SRA. When deciding, you must listen to all tracks, outer to inner, and a few LP’s with a variety of frequencies here and there to decide which pair of null points to use. The 3 primarily recognized null point systems vary by their designer’s approach/conclusions.

Oh Yeah, easily adjustable Azimuth (and retention of Azimuth while tightening) is important, especially replaceable headshell use.

Ralph(Atma-sphere), I agree on the Triplanar, but I’m not sure why you think I needed to know how to adjust VTA on the TP. As you know, I’ve owned mine since the early 90s, at least. Built by Herb Papier in his basement factory. But I also these days use 4 other tonearms regularly. I find with all of them that unlocking and then re-locking the adjuster is difficult to do without disturbing the stylus in the groove during play. And to avoid such traumatic events, I prefer to stop play, do the adjustment, and then drop the needle back down on the LP exactly where it was. That’s just me.If my aural memory was so poor that I could not recall the SQ before the VTA adjustment to compare it to the result of the adjustment, then I really ought not to be an audiophile. That said, I would not own a tonearm that did not have the feature of easily adjusting the VTA.

I agree also that Herb’s design for VTA adjustment on the fly has been copied by many. Since the TP probably dates back to the 80s, I think we can now fairly say that it is a vintage design, and a classic one at that. Probably should be in any audio hall of fame.

@larryi 

for VTA on the fly remotely try Expressimo Audio .

for me it's stop everything , loosen the bolt that holds the tonearm 
and raise or lower then tighten the bolt circa 1985 Merrill turntable .

@lewm  Have you had your Triplanar updated since Tri Mai took over? If not you're missing a bet; he's improved the precision of the VTA tower and its effortless on the fly.

IF SRA is correct for thin LP, then, to play a thick LP, the rear of the arm needs to be raised a speck to maintain perfect 92 degrees into the groove. How much typically? Or, set 92 degrees for an average thickness and enjoy. 

92 degrees should be regarded as an approximation. I own a mastering lathe so I can tell you that the cutting stylus is only good for about 10 hours before it becomes too noisy. At that time, the engineer has to remove the cutterhead and install a new one. After that, he re-installs it and goes thru the procedure of test cuts until he zeros in on getting a silent groove to be actually silent. IOW he measures for noise in the groove rather than going for 92 degrees (stylus temperature, cutter height, tangential alignment and cutting pressure are the main variables). As a result, the actual SRA can be a bit off of 92 degrees, as much as a degree and obviously varies from LP to LP.

I love my Kuzma 4-Point and its VTA tower and locking device work beautifully, but the lines marked on the micrometer tower are not easy to see/read. It would be a dream if I could mark the tower for 150, 180, and 200 grams. Another problem is that my turntable is in a separate room from the listening room so dialing it in is very time consuming. Mine is set for 180 gram records and I play a lot of 180's, but over the last ten years since Classic Records and now Chad pressing 200 gram, I play a LOT of 200 gram records, along with a lot of oldies on thinner records. Stay Safe, stay home. Hard for a guy who has been working 14/14 offshore for the last 24 years. Peace................