@tcutter If these are SS Amp's, I sense a little music heard as Background Music will make the optimisation period feel speeded up. If Valve Amp's I can only suggest keeping close and having 'eyes on' the Amp's when in use.
'Eyes On' has always been the discipline in my home, hence the SS set up for the Wife that is now being investigated / built for her purposes. Vinyl Source and conventional Box Speakers for the eyes on sessions. CD / Streamer for the mooching around the home, maybe for this a Wireless Speaker set up as well.
As somebody who has been to experience Cartridge Demo's using Same Headshell > Tonearm > TT and Audio System.
It is experienced on quite a few occasions that a Cart' that has been declared as not used for a period of time, takes a period of time to come on song.
Usually those doing the listening / assessing are needing to agree when the perceive it is performing at the point it is now worthwhile commenting on.
I have absolutely no doubts Cart's of the designs I am familiar with are needing a period of usage to offer a optimised performance, when the effects of Kinetic Energy on the Cart' has diminished.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest from my end this is a Bad Thing.
Mr J Carr has made known other inefficiencies about energies being encountered, which is what it is, the Cart' is not perfect as a mechanical device for using the embedded data it is designed to pass on to become electrical energy, much of the energy sent is dumped.
The energy dump is not discriminating, both Valuable and Not so Valuable are sent on as Signal and Dumped.
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I leave my equipment on 24/7, so never noticed any warmup.
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@pindac
My class A amps take over an hour to sound their best.
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As others on this thread have probably already hinted at, I would venture to say that it’s not necessarily vinyl that takes time to warm up, but rather your other components, particularly the amplifier, but also potentially the pre-amplifier. Both SS and tube components may take anywhere from 15-60 minutes to warm up to sound their best. Generally speaking, I think it’s a good idea to turn on your entire system about 30 minutes before beginning a real listening session. (I just power everything on, but nothing is playing for the first 30 minutes.)
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My phono warm up time is about 10-20 minutes.
when I walk away for a period of time, the Pro-ject DS 2 Tube Box goes into idle, it takes 5 minutes to warm up again.
See about page:
https://theaudioatticvinylsundays.com
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The Following is the Info added to a Very Well Respected Cartridge Producers Web Page about Dampers used in general.
" Suspension
A phono cartridge suspension is like the gatekeeper to success in a phono cartridge. The suspension is typically made with a compliant elastomer material that allows the cantilever to move freely in the dimensions the stylus requires, but also acts to damp resonance coming from the cantilever. It also to stave off micro jitters of stylus in the record groove, and holds the cantilever in its proper place relative to the generator. How much it moves is measure in ‘cu’ (compliance units). It is expressed as a number that looks like this: 10-6cm/dyne@100Hz, or in everyday speak, 10cu. The higher the first number, the more compliant the suspension. The lower the number, the stiffer the suspension (less compliant). The suspension is typically positioned along the cantilever so that it defines the pivot point of the cantilever assembly, and is located much closer to the generator than to the stylus. If designed incorrectly (too stiff, not stiff enough, too much rebound, too long a memory, or treated incorrectly), sound quality as well as stylus/record life will be negatively impacted. Tracking force and even room temperature are further considerations for a properly performing suspension. A correctly designed and applied suspension system perpetuates a stylus that can smoothly and effortlessly follow the record groove, allowing the moving structure at the opposite end of the stylus to interact with the generator in a uniform way. As the suspension is typically made from a variety of rubber, it is susceptible to degradation over time due to shear use, but also due to environmental conditions. A suspension system in a hot and humid environment will not last as long as one in a mild climate, just as a cartridge in a very hot and dry climate will also be adversely affected. If the turntable is in direct sunlight, it will shorten the life. Advances in materials over the years have provided more robust rubber compounds that hold up better, but the very small amount of material relative to the amount of vibrational energy it deals in makes for a very difficult design brief for engineers. In terms of performance, a consistent ambient temperature is the single greatest key to getting a consistently great result from a properly set up phono cartridge. Some audiophiles even place a lamp near the turntable to control the ambient temperature for the
cartridge, and many even keep a temperature gauge nearby. For practical purposes, a suspension too cold is not sufficiently compliant, a suspension too warm is excessively compliant. "
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Consider psychoacoustics, specifically habituation. As a test, have someone else play 4 records with you out of earshot, then come in on the 5th. See whether after another 4 you get the same sort of changes. If not, there seems to be some warm up, if it does get better, it's psychology.
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Mmm very possible. Never thought about that.
I however assume the rest of the downstream setup might actually warm up more. Are you using tubes anywhere (pre amp, amp or mono blocks?) I’d imagine that might have a bigger impact. I’ll try to see if I notice the same. Interesting post!
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Very typical and once you start hearing the difference one has to play filler records to get the system warmed.
i hear this warm up on the digital side as well and I will start playing music 1/2 hr before I sit down for serious listening.
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I can’t speak about the Ikeda cartridge (mentioned by @slaw as being similar to Londons and Decca in not having a mechanical damping material), but Londons and Deccas have a tie-back cord (running from just above the stylus back to the pickup body), the cord material being non-heat transferring in nature (it is some sort of thread I believe). Of course they both have normal styluses, and in place of a cantilever a wide L-shaped metal blade to which the stylus is attached. The blade is not run at an angle, but rather straight up to the cartridge’s magnets and coils. But while "normal" cartridges commonly have some form of rubber damper located where the cantilever is attached to the cartridge body, the Londons and Deccas do not. So while their styluses and cantilever blades may experience the same "heating" as do normal designs, because of being rubber damper-free there is one less cause of change in the cartridges sound as it plays longer.
My favorite hi-fi retailer, Brooks Berdan (widely acknowledged as a turntable set-up expert) "ran in" every cartridge he sold, putting (I believe) about 20 hours of playing time on it before releasing the table to it's owner. After those 20 hours, he realigned the cartridge, to compensate for any changes in the cart's suspension. Everyone knows a cart's suspension "relaxes" after a certain amount of playing time, just as does the suspension of loudspeaker drivers. 20 hours may not completely relax the suspension, which may take up to 100 hours. Deccas and Londons neither need nor benefit from run-in; they have no suspension, which puts greater demands on the tonearm (arm tube stiffness, bearing quality).
The above admittedly comes from one unschooled in the related sciences, so may be ignored. But I wonder how much heat is being produced (see below), and how quickly that heat is dissipated in the heat-conducting materials of the cartridge (stylus, cantilever).
What this topic brings to mind is the degree to which the stylus riding in the LP groove may be heating up the vinyl. Walter Davies of The Last Factory (makers of Last Record Preservative) claimed that the heat created by that stylus/groove contact is the cause of record wear, the heat causing tiny chips of the vinyl to be dislodged from the groove wall. I personally am more concerned with my LPs than I am with cartridge warm-up time. But that’s just me.
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Solid state devices have an ideal operating temperature, just like tubes. Even if you leave your SS phono stage or preamplifier in "stand by" mode when it is not in use, the audio circuitry still has to warm up a bit after operating DC voltages are applied. In my main system, I alternate between an SS and a tube preamplifier. Warm up of the SS device,before optimal performance is achieved, is as obvious as it is with the tube device, even though the former is always in standby. It's not just transistors and tubes; it's also capacitors, resistors, diodes, etc, that benefit from a bit of warmup.
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The Technics SL10 and SL7 warms up the record and stylus..
To me that makes the music sound smoother.
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I can see tube's Amp warm up time...but SS...I never thought about it.
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@joeycastillo stated " Anything on the chain can be doing except you pre and power as you mentioned that Streaming is not affected, leaving it happening on the analog side. "
Under the guise assessments made within this thread are based on End Sound being subjectively assessed.
None of the devices referred to in the quote are producing Sound, they are managing an electrical current, either as part of producing the signal to be sent, or Amplifying / Adding Gain to the sent Signal.
The Signal only becomes sound after having left the Xover in a Speaker, where at such a place electrical energy is converted in to Kinetic Energy, that is to move a device that moves air, hence, Electrical Energy from the Source is transferred to sound and Sound Energy is migrating into local structures.
There can also be the suggestion Migrating Amplitude, can effect the local structures where certain materials being effected react in a way that is bettering the End Sound being heard to the environment. Improved Absorption or a less harsh reflection could be the effect on a material being exposed to energy from sound.
A Driver that is creating the movement of air, is made up of a variety of materials that have a mechanical function and also are assembled in a way that interfaces between the materials that are used.
In the same way the Cartridge requires the effects of Kinetic Energy to warm it and enable the selected materials to become optimised in their function. The Speakers Drive Units are requiring very very similar from the Kinetic Energy being produced.
Nearly all users of all speaker designs will inform on a Period of usage being required before the Speakers reach their Sweet Spot.
As for Amp's try explaining to a Amp user where Valves are in the Circuit that a period is not required until the Sweet Spot is the manifest.
I am to start using SS again in my system, I can easily add a SS Device when all other items are discernible for their having reached an optimised function. It will not be long before I learn if a SS Device benefits the End Sound being produced from a period of being in use.
I would not myself encourage anybody with a Very Expensive Cart' and having heavily invested in getting the Set Up for the Cart' dialled in to near perfection, to remove the Cart' and bring in a much lesser model to see if their Cart' is faulty unless it is exposed to a period of Kinetic Energy effecting the critical mechanical interfaces.
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Joey, baby, a phono cartridge is most apt to "warm up" before sounding its best, among all other audio gear, IMO. It has suspended moving parts, and the suspension is made from organic materials or synthetic versions thereof. Those materials have to flex in the course of doing their job. Initial flexing is beneficial for literally warming the materials to operating temperature and also making them engage in their full range of motion and remove any residual stiffness.
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Warm up is real for me IMO. very obvious with my Pass gear and DACs from Denafrips. but for a Phono cartridge, first I heard huh.
If it were me, I would get another used or inexpensive cart and swap it. Then see if the changes are real and not imaginary. Anything on the chain can be doing except you pre and power as you mentioned that Streaming is not affected, leaving it happening on the analog side.
If you find that it's your old cart that is having the issue, then time to get a new one. I don't know if you can have the motor replaced
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I also find that my analog playback sounds better after a few records and goes from a little harsh and edgy to a smoother and more coherent sound. I use the DS Audio S003 system and I think it’s the cartridge because I can have the equalizer "warmed up" for 24 hours and it still takes a couple of records. I did not notice this with my previous moving coil set up. I wonder if it's because of the suspension loosening up.
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@bdp24 I read your short post, the antithesis of my own posts produced.
The content clearly was a response to having understood a Damper and Tension Wire requires a period of time of receiving Energy to become Kinetic Energy and create Heat for the parts to become optimised in their function.
I get the recommendation, for those that don't an analogy to help could be:
If you can't stand the thought of a Dog leaving a turd on your perfect lawn, then why have the perfect lawn and own a dog  .
Making a Pet of a Robotic Lawn Mower makes more sense.
If one feels silly doing this, the Link might be offering a more fitting solution.
https://www.robopets.co.uk/?msclkid=5b64bdb2db7619c2ec82d5c320c84424
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@lewm: Did I miss someone else's mention of London (and/or Decca for that matter)? When someone has already mentioned a product I make a habit of crediting them. I took a second look, and still don't see London or Decca.
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Time of day/night can be critical for some
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Two sides before critical listening.
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Proof that no one reads anyone else’s post.
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Get yourself a London pickup. No suspension.
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I would suspect the stylus suspension. It might be time for a cartridge rebuild.
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A Cartridge that has been sat idle as a Nearly New or close to its End of Usage Life, that has idled for a period, will have lost the effects of Kinetic Energy on the properties of the Damper Compound.
The Damper will Only Optimise and hence Tension Wire only Optimise, as a result of receiving Energy, which is converting to heat, hence the name for the Part is a ( Damper ), the Part Damps Transferred Energy.
The Stylus effectiveness at producing a Facsimile of Groove Modulation to be sent for conversion to a Electrical Signal, will be much more beneficial, when other Parts that impact on its function are at their Optimised working condition.
Energy never dissipates, Energy Transforms to a different form of Energy.
Amplitude that is carrying Energy Dissipates and materials with Intrinsic Properties suitable to manage Amplitude, when carefully selected will substantially reduce Amplitude.
Cartridges are uniquely voiced by how a Design is able to Treat Amplitude. A Cantilever > Damper Marriage are quite important considerations.
Cantilever Mass / Material, Damper Material/Materials, Tension Wire Type, Tensioning of Wire and Cartridge Body Material, are where a Cartridge becomes uniquely Voiced.
Other Parts are more generic and will pass on their unique influences within a range of Cart's, (Family Voicing / Sound ) it is the above that brings the differences to the Siblings in the Range on offer.
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Thank you, Pindac, for a great explanation of what I have believed for years. I always play one album that I don’t plan to listen to as a cartridge warm up. Then I play the albums I have set aside for my session. I have always felt, and would say proven, the cartridge needs to loosen up to sound it’s best. Much like warming up with exercise before a workout to limber up, not that I’m physically active, but I feel the comparison is very much the same.
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It sounds like your phono cart has enough time on it so its fully broken in. Just be aware that when it comes to break in, nothing is like a phono cart. The difference is huge. I've had brand new units that I thought were defective because they sounded so bad right out of the box. For the first 20 hours, or so, I can hear a difference from record to record. As for cables, they break in too, and one of the difficult things about vinyl is to break in a tonearm cable, it has to be done manually with records. Its not like a CD that you can leave on for a couple of days. For me, I like Audioquest cables with the DBS system. The DBS system was designed to make break in faster, and stay broken in for longer times. While possible, I don't think this is your problem either. However, if you try a bunch of things that don't work, maybe have a look at the cable.
I would start off with 2 things. The first is to make sure the problem is TT related, and not something else in the system. Does the issue only occur when you play vinyl, or will a CD player or streamer show the same problem, as well? If so, the problem lies elsewhere. If it is isolated to the TT, I would go over all of your alignment angles. You may be right at a threshold, and putting all of your angles back into spec may fix the problem. If everything is in spec, look at the values for each angle and maybe try some small adjustments while still keeping everything within range.
If you want a really good setup guide, Brooks Berdan did a complete setup process that was published in The Audio Perfectionist Journal. If you do a search, you should have no problem finding it. If not, go to Vandersteens website. You'll find every APJ issue to download for free. Its a really good guide. I thought his comments on VTA/SRA were particularly helpful.
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Warm up is a real thing and one need not resort to fantasy in order to understand it. Neither tubes nor transistors are at their best immediately after being awakened from cold (which is an argument in favor of leaving SS gear powered up at all times unless you’re going on vacation for an extended period). Then too, cartridges have mechanical parts that obviously benefit from exercise and flexing. Speaker diaphragms also loosen up when signal is applied over time. There should be no controversy on this subject. My systems require 30 to 45 minutes before they “sing”.
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Forgetting so called Electronics Warm Up / Burn In - Optimisation through being exposed to Power On and functioning in the working environment and attaining a ideal working Temperature, forgetting that sort of stuff.
A Cartridge is a Mechanical Device with a few Interfaces between different Parts in the assembly.
The Stylus can only interface and perform at its most optimised when tracing the Modulation in the Groove, when other Interfaces usually found within the Cartridge Body are able to perform at their optimised.
A Damper is a Rubber Compound / Viscoelastic Compound that will change its properties through Heat being generated as a result of Kinetic Energy being received through the Stylus / Cantilever dancing around joined at the Hip.
Think of the early stages of the Dance in the Groove as Amateurs performing, this is due to their needs to improve not yet having found a Teacher.
When the Damper is Optimised as a Temperature, as a result of the Heating through taking on Kinetic Energy, the Tension Wire also responds differently, and will be once more at a Optimised condition for the Role is has to perform.
Think of the Optimised Damper / Tension Wire as the Ultimate Choreographers and Dance Teachers.
The Dance of the Stylus / Cantilever becomes Broadway Quality when the Damper / Tension Wire are Optimised through their functioning at a Optimal Temperature.
When it comes to Damper Technology, Ortofon are World Leaders with their Subsidiary Companies R&D carried out, along with Manufacturing numerous materials, which are very very stable in the typical environments, certainly not degrading / Cracking / Dissolving when exposed to Ozone. Many of the Products produced under the Ortofon Brand are suitable as a Damper Part.
Where Ortofon Wins is they choose the Parts with a extremely long user life to suit the Voicing they want. I understand the Verismo had it own bespoke compound produced by Ortofon.
A Budget Option is in the Link, but a Stylus as already discussed is needed to bring out a little of the magic hidden within!!
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=48131.0
The Following is from a Thread created by an individual who commands respect in the World of the Phono Cartridge, those with the highest regard publicly converse with him.
A incorrect Zenith Mounting for a Stylus on a Cantilever might just be a trivial problem where some Cart's are concerned.
It is easy to Spend Big and get a Bum Deal - Caveat Emptor
" The most honest and most problematic of modern cartridges.
I have always liked and continue to like the sound of ZYX, but since an indefinite time there has been a change in the damper material, which led to a terrible effect. The damper no longer holds its shape under the powerful pressure of the magnetic field, which turns the coils inside out.
Damper deformation leads to a terrible channel imbalance, which reaches 3 - 6 dB.
I repeat that the cartridge has a very good sound while it is young.
I would require that the product's production date and expiration date be marked on the packaging, just like in the grocery department of a store.
Does the ZYX company know about this? I think they know, at least the dealers who get rid of expired products at reduced prices are well aware of this. "
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Yes, it is hard to dismiss the possibility that the benefits are all in one's head, but, it might well be that it takes quite a while for a cartridge suspension to soften from use or physically warming up. The suspension becoming more compliant from use could not only affect the sound, it could make the cartridge track better and also affect the resonant characteristic of the tonearm/cartridge system and this too can affect tracking and other behavior.
The difference between your experience and most other listeners is, as you stated, how long you must play records before you seem to reach optimum performance. I tend to not listen that critically so I don't try to listen for improvement beyond the first ten minutes or so of play where the sound becomes good enough for my ears.
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Be honest, was whiskey involved in this at all?
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@larryi
Thanks for the suggestions.
Yes, I have tried replaying the first records again and they usually sound better once the system is warmed up.
In the past, I’ve always been sceptical about warm up. But it does feel like a real thing. Maybe, it is all psychosomatic or a matter of getting in the right state of mind for listening.
A curious thing, it doesn’t appear to apply to streaming.
I’ve seen mention it it taking a side to warm up, but never a few albums,
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@mahler123
I am using a Linn Urika II phono stage. Thank you.
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Did you go back to the first albums you played in a session to confirm that they sound better after the several hour warmup? Even that basic test is, of course, not really strong verification, but, it is at least better than comparing the sound of playing different records? Have you tried recording the playback of the same record to directly compare the sound of first play and play after several hours?
It might be the case that what is warming up is not only the gear, but the listener as well, so it is hard to trust such judgment. I am not saying you are wrong on how long it takes for your system to warm up, I am just saying it is hard to verify that this really is the case.
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What Phono Stage are you using?
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