Upgrade to McIntosh

The DAC2 module uses the ES9028PRO chip which is well respected. Same as benchmark DAC3 that goes for $1800. Having heard both I would stay they are comparable with the Mac having more natural sounding highs to my ears. I have not heard the DA2 in the Mac as a stand alone unit so I can’t really comment on soundstage and finer details as the preamp plays a big part. 
 

I owned two MC275 MkVIs bridged as monoblocks paired with MC52 pre.

Excellent in all respects; drove my vintage Infinity RS IIs no problem.

Traded them  for MC830 monoblocks for more power and to avoid the tube warmup situation.

I really like the DAC2 board in my C2700, I also have my TV in the same room and the ARC input is a godsent for integration of the TV into my audio system. As for if its better then the DAC1 board I cannot say but everything i read says is an upgrade.

I would not hesitate in getting a MAC per-amp with the DAC2 board if you have digital in your system. It was better then the Schiit Gumby multi bit DAC I was using prior ( $1300usd) and better then the Aurender A10 internal DAC i have now. Its quite lively sounding and has good detail and sounds like music, i found the Aurender A10's DAC to be quite dark sounding in comparison. the Schiit DAC is a great value for the money though but not quite up to the DAC 2 board specialty when taking into effect the ARC integration and inputs available. 

Regarding the originator’s question about separates, I primarily use a McIntosh C2300 (the last, all-analog, tube preamp; I don’t listen to digital files, and wouldn’t want a built-in DAC if I did!), coupled to a McIntosh MC402 amplifier. Although the MC402 is a solid-state amp, it uses Autoformers whose output impedance is similar to a tube amplifier. I have this pair coupled to a pair of B&W Matrix 801 Series III loudspeakers. This combination provides tight, solid bass and warmer mids and highs, Great sound!

Previously, I used a Sunfire Classic Vacuum Tube Control Center (tube preamp) with Sunfire 300 amplifier, coupled to Innersound Isis loudspeakers, so I definitely prefer the tube/solid-state combination. I still own the Sunfire tube preamp (sounds so good I couldn't get rid of it), and occasionally pair it up with various other (solid-state) amplifiers I still own to listen to for a change!

Go with separates, it gives you more flexibility and options.

One of the incentives the dealer offered me was full trade up value for my purchase. Said it was a mac thing. Something to look forward to 

I ordered my McIntosh C2700 yesterday. Did I need it? Probably not but I had permission from the boss sooooo! Will just sell my C2600 at that point. 

With McIntosh being roon certified I wonder how much more it would have cost to add full mqa? There’s a lot of albums I’ll pull up on qobuz with most of the songs unavailable and tidal will offer the complete album so without getting into a mqa vs flac debate not having mqa does limit what’s available. If asked I think more often than not the recording itself makes a more audible difference than the format, and it would be an easier decision if buying a da2 made more music available to me. 

MC601’s and C2300 Pre with Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7 for both Phono and Line stage driving my Vandersteen 2CE Signature II and I couldn’t be happier.

I’ve owned one for the past year with the D2 DAC installed. If you’d like more details about it, send me a message.

@jeffreyw Thanks for posting that comparison. I’ve been curious what level I would need to be looking at if I ever decided to go back to using an external DAC in my system. This eliminates a lot of guessing. 

Just be aware of one of the most remorseful decisions involved in choosing your hi-fi gear:

Purchasing a less expensive piece of gear instead of what you really wanted!

Best of luck

@steve59 

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac 

I can comment on how good the DA2 module is. I run an additional Aries Cerat Helene DAC in my system ($17K). The Helene is clearly better in every aspect. However, what most impresses me about my system is just how good the DA2 is when I do an A/B test. DACs have become so good for so little money. I really think you would need to be in the $3K range to better the DA2, and that improvement wouldn't be jaw-dropping; $10K would be needed for that reaction. This is just an example of how good of a value the DA2 brings to the table. 

Interesting you ask. I went down a whole rabbit hole trying to go with bookshelves on speaker stands, + a wireless sub, due to my room limitations. and I was very disappointed by the sound - it was very “small and narrow”. My room is about 20x18. I found the spendor A4s and went with those (the footprint of the A4 is **SMALLER** than that of any speaker stand base). I personally am deeply satisfied with the A4 (could have gone A2 but I got a deal) + subwoofer combo. Depending on what I am listening to, I will or won’t use the sub. The splendors powered by the M352 provide a wonderful, lovely, crisp sound. For “critical listening” I use the built-in headphone functionality with my focal MGs.

 

how big is your room?

 

it goes without saying, part of the appeal of the 352 is the simplicity, and the look, which in my case this is my living room, I don’t have room for 2-3 components and it’s wife-approved, were also key. But IMO, the 352 provides specTacular sound in addition to the aesthetic.

@jeffreyw 

I second what you said. I'm running a C2300 with MC601's and I get wonderful, warm tube sound with lots of bass. I also have an MC275 in my system and I can switch between the 601's and the 275, and the difference between the SS amps and tube amp is definitely more subtle than when I had a SS preamp with the same amps.

I have been a long time McIntosh fan and have run MC352, MC601's, MC75 III, and currently MC275VI.  Surprisingly, a Don Sachs II pre amp absolutely out performed my beloved C500T pre amp.  Suspect 6SN7 based system is just better than 12AX7 to my ears.  I ran Cremona Auditor M's, then Guarneri Evolutions and both were excellent.  A move to a much larger room allowed me to run Cornwall IV's and I have no interest in changing anything.  Don't overlook the Don Sachs / McIntosh synergy.....a wonderful match.  Have fun!

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac I haven't compared that DA2 module to other higher end (above $1000) DACs. I've only owned a couple of the Schiit Audio DACs (Modi and Modius) and the module in the C2700 is certainly better. 

This will certainly be a personal choice and I do understand the dilemma. McIntosh does sell the C22 tube preamp without a DAC if a McIntosh tube preamp is your interest. Then you are not tied to a built in if you want to try out others. I might eventually switch to another DAC, but the DA2 was a big improvement for me over what I currently owned.

All tubes here. I have the MC275 VI paired up with a C2300. Listen to it most everyday in my office. I added a RME DAC so I could hook up my streamer. I have a 10x10 room and while I don't listen at reference levels (more in the 70-80dB range ), the MC275 has plenty of power and low end for my Paradigm Studio 20V5s. Whatever you pair with the MC275, the MC275 will not be the weakest link in the chain and is an amp you can keep and enjoy for years. 

 

@femoore12 I have my reservations about the internal DAC2 installation. You see the DACs keep improving so do the connection types that come with them. Is it really worth the extra $1000 McIntosh internal DAC2 rather than trying out different external DACs giving you more freedom and opportunities.That is a dilemma.

@icehawks18  I heard the A4s. They are pleasing speakers.I think the room size/speaker choice is crucial in achieving an optimum sound. I am trying to pair bookshelves with a good sub which takes a lot of trial. Some brands integrate better. REL,SVS micro 3000,Rythmik F12SE... Still hard to make a choice.

How is the low end response with the MA352? Since its SS on the output, I guess youa re satisfied with the bass?

I have the 352 running through some A4’s, and an MT5 with a clear audio charisma v2 cart, it sounds incredible and looks amazing. 

I don't normally recommend anything, but my experience is to try it in your home and as part of your system and hopeful against others that you like, before purchasing.

 

Really!  It extends your "journey" but I suspect that you will be happy that you did.

Enjoy!

Thanks for the quick reply, right now everything’s new and I’m stoked.

@steve59 My C2700 came with the DA2 module. I haven’t heard the DA1 and cannot give a comparison, but I have zero complaints about the DA2. I stream quite a bit and use Roon all through that module. It’s been fantastic so far. 

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac    I was referring to the change in the stock tubes in the MA352 hybrid integrated amp, not the MC275, as  mentioned by willg 1985. I assume one changes the same type of tube but of a different brand.

Those of you who have the DA2 did you upgrade from the da1? I ask because my dealer is offering the da2 upgrade, but with all my digital sources being redbook cd or a max of 24/192 streaming. I would like to know if your impressions are of A clear upgrade in sq across the board and what you like about it? Day 5 I’m streaming brain salad surgery and pushing around 5-10 watts (luv the meters) it doesn’t stop getting better.

Now that I’m hearing what these blade’s can do I’m a little embarrassed that I waited so long.

Separates are always better sounding than Integrated amps.....because everything is not being stuffed into a single box...Physics. Tube pre with SS power amp is always the most effective way to go....That gives you the Best of both worlds... MAC amps are ALL assembled in NY.

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac Admittedly it is hard to answer your question re. the Revel F328Be (I initially owned the F228Be but after about a year, upgraded to the F328Be).

I have a smallish room 13’ x 13’, well treated with panels, diffusers, and small bass traps. Additionally, custom length bluejean speaker cables, after market power cord, dedicated power to my room, power conditioner... The F228Be bass port is in front; the F328Be in the rear. You can surmise the rationale. Interestingly, (using the Wilson placement process AKA the mirror reflection) I’ve found I have to be closer to the "center" to have optimum sound stage. 99% most likely my room, not the speakers. Imaging is incredible. At times, I hear the drums "on my right knee" and others there is no L or R depending on the music source/recording, etc. Re. your questions of euphonic / dynamics, all I can say is that the power match with the MA352 (integrated / tubes) creates a wonderful warm presence. I hear things I've never heard with these speakers. Fine nuances, Goldberg "humming" as he plays, the singer's breath... I mean at times, it seems better than if I'd been in a symphony hall. Bottom line, these are my last speakers and will likely move homes in the next few years hoping to have a bit larger listening room. As I noted, these and the MA352 are my anchors. I may upgrade other components, but not the amp or speakers. Sure, there are better options but for my budget and enjoyment, I could not be happier. BTW, shop around. The Revels weigh in around $16-17K for the pair but you can find sources that are closer to $10K if you’re patient.

Good luck and as Hans says, whatever you do, enjoy the music.

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac 

You don't have to replace the stock tubes. They are good stable tubes that will last thousands of hours. I decided to swap mine out after roughly nine months of listening with the JJ tubes. I was curious if a higher grade of tubes would make a difference. I learned that it did make a difference. I purchased mine from Tube Depot and Upscale Audio. Good experience with both stores. 

Wolfgang………. Yes many of us buy online. I usually stick with a couple bigger ones. Tube store. Tube depot. Are two I’ve used often enough with no disappointment from either. 

@dreas I hear hear great things about the Revel F328Be speakers though I haven not auditioned them. How is the soundstage and imaging ? Would you say the sound is on the euphonic and dynamic side than accurate ? Three 8" woofers must be giving you a big, full sound I guess?

@styleman @glennewdick @femoore12  So the stock JJ tubes in MC275 better be replaced? Do you guys purchase those tubes online usually? 

@willg1985

 

Can you be specific on the Tung-sol tubes you replaced the stock tubes with.  I'd like to try it.  Thanks

I, like @styleman went from a 6900 to a MA352 and really love the sound of the 352. I have rolled a couple of tubes in it. Currently using some Tung-sol’s and they have added a thickness to it in the best way possible. I like the combo of SS amp and tube preamp. I feel like the MA352 gives you a lot of flexibility. The MA352 is a winner in my book. I haven't noticed any harshness in the mids. I'm running mine with the JBL L100 Classic 75's. Amazing combo. Let us know what you end up doing!

@jumia Wrote:

Mc 611 monos work very well with a tube preamp.  Monos a lot better due two separate power supply and more power.

I agree. I will also add that monoblock amps have better left and right channel separation and the ability to keep the speaker cables very, very short plus each monoblock amp can have it's own AC dedicated circuit. Lastly, the mono blocks do not take up any real estate in my listen room as I have each monoblock amp under each speaker. 😎

Mike

Very new to Mac. I brought home a pair of 611’s and a c49 this weekend to drive my Kef blades. These are the store demos and I expect are indicative of what a run in system will sound like. The system has exceeded my expectations and I’m buying them. My Mc dealer says I’ll like the tube pre better, but he also says I’ll get full future trade value so I’m going to keep enjoying the c49 awhile. I expected the amps to sail through chili peppers turned up to 11 and they do. What really surprised me is how open, detailed and dynamic they sound at low and moderate volume. I just need a couple bases to get them off the carpet and I’m set. 

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac 

I stayed with a tube preamp (C2700) and SS power amp (MC462) setup when I upgraded to separates.  I'm very happy with the combo.  Best of both worlds.  The C2700 is a fantastic pre, IMO.  Regarding the MA352 - To be fair, I think it just wasn't a great match with my speakers.  It's a nice, solid unit, and most owners are very happy with it.  I definitely seem to be in the minority with my experience.

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac and @glennewdick

I swapped out the JJ tubes in my MC275s with Gold Lion and Mullard. Nice improvement all around, but especially in the mids range and bass. I changed the tubes in my C2700 with Telefuken and Mullard. Good improvement on the upper range with the Telefuken tube.

I demoed the MA325 prior to getting the C2700/MC275 combo. It’s a really good hybrid integrated amp. If you pair it with some decent high efficiency speakers you will not regret it unless you want the flexibility of separates. I listened to the MA325 with Cornwalls and it was a great setup.

No right or wrong answer on pairing Tube with SS or Tube with Tube. It all comes down to personal preference. I will say that adding subwoofers will also provide better bass than what you can get out of typical speakers.

Mc 611 monos work very well with a tube preamp.  Monos a lot better due two separate power supply and more power.

EH tubes are much better 

I have a c2700-275 combo and its quite nice. I'd definitely move up to the c22 or c2700 over the c8 unless you really like that look.

dac2 board is quite good for the money as well. ARC in the dac 2 board is also very handy if you have a TV in the same room. the options on the c2700 make it the best preamp I've used for options and flexibility.

The 275 runs hot.

both need better tubes then the JJ's ( i believe they are JJ's) MAC supplies as OEM tubes not bad for new tubes but lacking in so many ways. almost every negative I've read above for the mac tube gear can be related to those tubes IMO.  

@wolfgangamadeusaudiophiliac This is most definitely a great conversation from everyone.

I play with vintage gear all the time. I prefer warming sound, I also like fast detailed tight bass.

I’ve bought new gear solid state power amplifiers and preamplifiers. What I found is I’m not a big fan of modern solid state amplifiers, I don’t like class D which is where the industry is going, due to cost savings.

Preamplifiers have improved low noise floor. Modern Solid State preamplifiers have that quality.

I have two very good vintage tube preamplifiers recapped restored. Marantz 7c & HK Citation 1. 

Both tube preamplifiers sound very good.

I’ve tried Marantz 7c tube preamp with Marantz 15, Marantz 16 Marantz 250. All solid state with Marantz sound. All been recapped bench tested. Marantz 7c took it to another level with them.

Mixing Mcintosh would be the same thing,

I’ve also tried Citation 1 preamp tube with HK Citation 16 150 watts Solid State amp. That combination sounds very good as well.

All tube amplifiers are not the same as like solid state amplifiers. Some are warmer tube sounding others can be cold and harsh.

Marantz 8b tube amplifier and solid state marantz amplifiers sound very close. Marantz 8b in its power range 35 watts, almost solid state sounding, tight bass, fast response, detailed highs etc.

If had power hungry speakers and wanted high volumes. Marantz 7c tube pre and marantz 250 or 500 amazing fit. But I only need 35 watts, sounds little more airy detailed to me.

Harmon Kardon Citation 2 tube power amplifier sound more like a tube amp to me. Still very wonderful. I would say If I need more power Citation 16 with 150watts fits the bill!

Now Marantz tube pre amp and power amplifier have a lower noise floor then the HK Tube system. I have La Scalas speakers, you will hear noise with tube period.. HK system I can hear hiss, completely normal.

I have a modern rotel RC-1580 preamp "wonderful preamp" sounds very good! Cheap, doesn’t add anything and it doesn’t subtract, Has tone controls, remote etc. One big positive it is silent, any amplifier i connect to it is silent or almost silent. Great with horn speakers.

If you want a low noise floor modern solid state preamp way to go, match it with vintage or new tube amplifier great results.

Based on what you want to do, what speakers you have. Mixing tubes and solid state have there benefits.

Mcintosh is great! I’ve had mc275 wasn’t for me, older McIntosh amps great midrange. I did a complete restoration on Mcintosh MX110 Jason Momoa has it now lol. Did a restoration MC240 and MC30. Build quality is wonderful! But wasn’t the sound I was looking for. Roger Russell is an amazing guy at Mcintosh.

Don’t be afraid to branch out, I have 1952 Pilot amps AA-901 sounds amazing, tried them with the rotel and Citation1. Wonderfull wonderful amps.

Back to new amplifiers, If I was going with new one it most likely would be tube.

Cheers

 

Casey

Dang it wrote too much lol.

 

 

 

All Mac. amps are U.S. hand made in Binghamton,N.Y. Parts are probably made in china and places around the world. But thats with every stereo manufacturer. As for your post . I'm using MC70 tube preamp thats a reintroduced MC22. Power is a SS MC452 and it's a beast. Soundstage is huge and crystal clear. MY speakers are Cornwall IVs and  I'm very happy. My only change to my setup would be to BI-AMP with a MC275VI tube for the uppers and the 452 for bass. Good luck

You guys rock! priceless input from all of you.

I was wondering if the general consensus about the ideal setup is tube preamp+solid state power amp, among Audiophiles, for reaching a warm,tuby sound without sacrificing controlled,tight and fast bass? Bu the lack of bass can always be compensated by a pair of subwoofers when running tube power amps?

On the other hand , a combo like C8/C22 tube pre and MC275 tube power amp seems to make many happy. I like listening music loud. I am eclectic.I love the 80s like Alphaville,Depeche Mode. I also listen to Jazz,Blues and Classic.

If only I could hear the MA352 tube pre+power amp hybrid. They dont have it where I am located at. @bjp9738 mentioned they found it a bit harsh in the midrange and lacking top end detail.

Should I hang up on the notion of tube pre+ SS power ?

 

 

My two cents: My instincts are to go with the separates in this case and, for that matter, in most cases, in general. However, either of these 2 power sources would me more than adequate for the speakers involved. I haven't heard the MA352. However, a friend and I spent approximately 4 to 5 hours of contiguous, concentrated, serious seat-time with the MC275, critically listening to several pairs of tower speakers I was in the market for at the time. I can't recall what pre-amp was being used but it was a MAC. There is no question, IMHO, that this is an outstanding sounding amp. I would expect that the MA352 would be just as impressive with the speakers involved. In the OP's position, I would plan to schedule some serious seat time A/B'ing both power sources and insist upon doing this with the speakers involved (e.g.  not something similar).

McIntosh has been having their hybrids made in China and  then reinspected in the U.S and  some amps That Don’t have the autoformers .  It’s now more about business and $$ profit  the original owners were Audiophiles 

now I believe S Korea owned .

@perkri 

I don't think any of the McIntosh amps preamps power conditioners receivers cd/sacd players are made in China. It is only their small powered speakers and some speciality items. 

Vintage is the way to go! Marantz tube gear is great! mc30 and mc225 are my favorite Mac amps. I’m tinkering with HK citation 1 and 2 sound really good too! 
 

@audioman58 I’m not surprised! I don’t like how McIntosh uses circuit boards in mc275. That type of money should be point to point. They must get parts from China because most manufactures do. Assembled in the us. 
 

glowing green leds under the tube are kinda silly. My wife didn’t like that at all. Happy wife happy life lol
 

overpriced, McIntosh vintage gear sounds good. Mx110, mc30 mc225 mc240. Not my favorite can’t beat it if you get a good price for it.  

You cannot go wrong with McIntosh separates. Ignore all the ridiculous naysayers on this site that claim otherwise or who make up rumors they cannot defend. I have a C2700 with the DA2 module feeding into two MC275s for my LaScala speakers. It sounds fantastic for everything I play on my system, and I play almost ever genre of music out there. The bass with the MC275s are great. You do not need a SS amp for good bass. However, if you really desire that deep heavy bass, get a subwoofer to supplement.