https://youtu.be/3FnduAiBkt0?si=G8Ko3ZUw38A5zYYT
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So it sounds like you’re dealing with a room issue more than anything. If that’s the case and you otherwise like your speakers then playing with placement would be the first thing to do, and there’s no guarantee switching speakers will leave you any better off if it is a room issue. My guess is pulling the speakers further into the room could help a lot given you noticed an improvement pulling them 4’ into the room, and generally speaking getting the speakers 25% into the room away from the side walls is also beneficial to decreasing room modes. If you can’t mitigate this with placement then bass traps may be the next thing to explore if you haven’t already. At least playing with placement is free, so there’s that. Hope this helps, and best of luck.
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@soix
I completely agree. I would not give up. My fist thought was bass traps… and if you already have them then maybe one between the speakers against the front wall, and definitely keep working on positioning.
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I have Sabrinas and they produce enough bass to overwhelm a small room. The way I mitigated it was by placing GIK Limited Range tri traps in the corners behind the speakers in addition I have 204 bass traps. I also changed interconnects to Nordost Tyr 2 that are better balanced top to bottom without emphasis on any particular frequencies. Bass is right on at this point.
Take a look at my system pictures.
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@audphile1
Nice looking system.
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@audphile1
I noticed you included the puritan 156 in your system. I have the Sabrinas but with McIntosh SS amplification. Are you pleased with the results of the puritan? I'm considering installing it on my system.
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Big speaker in small room, wrong room treatment may be. Consult G-Acoustics who are in India for proper room correction. Go far stand mounts like Borensen which is well acclaimed for excellent sound staging and imaging.
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Ozzy62 thank you sir!
Gjohns - I sold the PSM 156. I found it limited dynamics even with just the DAC and preamp connected to it. Sound was pinched/too tamed.
Tried several power cords on it. No bueno. It might work in someone else’s system if that’s the effect they’re looking for but in mine I prefer the sound with all components plugged direct into wall. I am using Furutech GTX-D NCF outlets. Good power cords is all my system requires.
This is just my experience.
I would highly recommend running two dedicated lines - one for amp(s) and preamp, another for all digital. If possible.
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@sidvee My room is almost exactly the same dimensions as yours. My room has no treatments none whatsoever as it’s carpeted, extremely little to no echo, enclosed, and pretty well damped on it’s own. I feel extremely fortunate as I have Revel Salon 2 speakers in my room with astonishing results. What makes my Salon 2’s work so well in my smaller room, although they’re pretty darned good sized speakers is that, they have down-firing ports, the bass and tremble are adjustable, so I can dial them up or down if needed. I run my speakers with the bass setting dialed down one notch and the tremble left in the "flat" setting. By the Revel Salon 2’s being so adjustable, it allows me to place them closer to the back, allows for easier placement in the room, bass integrates in the room beautifully and not overwhelm the room. I crave big-time, deep, but musical, tight bass, and the Salon 2’s never disappoint. I’m shocked at how breathtaking the Revel Salon 2 speakers sound in my smaller room. I know the Salon 2’s have been around for a long time, but, man, they’re so incredible sounding, they’ve become my end-game speakers. You’ll find your perfect speaker/amp combination in time. Hang in there. Happy listening.
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Thank you all. Regarding the posts recommending bass traps, I have 6 x 244 gik traps, plus two evolution polyfusors which also help as bass traps and also some corner traps at the ceiling. Yes all of these help and having the speakers pulled out to 4' from the wall also helps and the room is currently fine - I am listening to these for the past 5 years in this manner. However as I consider an upgrade, my focus was on sealed speakers like YG/Magico, to do away with having to deal with too many placement issues. Anyways I will look into Revel and will also try to get a detailed audition of the YG peaks series.
Cheers,
Sid
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https://www.audiogon.com/systems/4761#&gid=1&pid=1
This is my current system pic.
Cheers,
Sid
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Sid…your 244 traps are full range. They are on the wall behind speakers and are not in the corners. You still have your corners accumulating bass and you still have standing waves. Your GIK panel placement is not effective as far as bass traps go.
What I was talking about is GIk tri traps with limited range. They go directly into corners and eliminate that extra space where bass accumulates, in addition to trapping bass and not affecting high frequencies.
Your 244s will be more effective at first reflection points but don’t do a lot for bass trapping.
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I have an even smaller room at 9x12 and I've crammed my Sopra 2's in there and also have had some bass node issues. I know your room is treated, but upgrading to actual bass traps helped me. I have 4 on the front wall, stacked floor to ceiling. The second set really did help with imaging and bass control. Not sure if you have concrete or wood floors, but with wood subfloors I was getting bass feedback like crazy so I purchased Herbie's footers and they have helped calm the bass quite a bit and now have much better imaging. I'm looking at other options to take it further now. I'm sure a new sealed speaker will probably help, but these small and affordable tweaks definitely helped solve some of my issues and made my listening experience better in the bass department as well as imaging and detail. Good luck.
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you need two of these for each corner floor to ceiling
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@j-wall exactly what I’m telling Sid as well. Those 244 aren’t actually corner bass traps.
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Let's fill your small room with more stuff; that'll definitely make the room bigger and solve the problem!
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There’s no need for more stuff fat daddy. All that’s needed is the right stuff to effectively remediate the problem. Curb your sarcasm.
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@sidvee
Smaller rooms are tough. I have a bigger speaker in a smallish room too. I think you will find you need more absorption than you think. Jeff at HDacoustics designed my room. He is very good and I would strongly advise a free consultation to see what he thinks. I think your Wilson’s can work just fine in your room. Good luck !!
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In some ways, the listening position<->back wall is a more important distance than the front wall <-> speaker to create envelopment, immersion etc, which is where your 14ft is very restrictive. But, you are not alone, there are guys with million dollar rigs sitting right up against the backwall.
Try to leave at least 4 ft between you and the back wall, which leaves you barely 10 ft to work with. I suppose you could set your speaker a foot or 2 away from the front wall and play with inter-speaker distance and toe-in.
Standing waves (peaks/nulls) occur between parallel walls. Set your gik floorstanding panels directly in front, behind and to either side of you. Since you are only worried about your primary listening position, you don’t need to throw panels all over the small room for now and consume all room space, as if you are an omnipresent entity listening from every inch of the room. These panels (even the 244) are not good enough though to deal with stuff under 100ish hz or so.
For that, you will need subwoofers. Get 2 KEF KC62 microsubs (since your room’s a bit on the micro side) and place it at the 1/4, 1/4 and 3/4, 3/4 room lengthwise, widthwise positions with a crossover of 80hz or so, as a starting point. Play with the phase and the peaks/nulls under 80 or so hz should disappear (get cancelled). In other words, subs will serve as effective active room treatment devices when set up right. For stuff above that, you’ve got your panels hopefully in the right places.
If you listen to a lot of classical Indian or hindustani music... sarods, sitars, santoors, etc, i.e., these are the type of instruments that typical western speaker designers never heard or don’t quite understand the complexities of...,If that’s the case, you may want to get rid of that Wilson and get a Yamaha NS-2000A, which is a trickle down from the NS5000. It should hopefully fit in your room and also do fine with rock or whatever... If you have more money, get something from Mark Levinson (Daniel Hertz), he’s a sarod player and did some thinking along those lines hopefully, i.e., talk to him first.
Good luck.
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Oh man that was funny as hell! 😂
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Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback. The rear corners of the room have 244 panels diagonally across with an air gap. Yes the front have panels against the walls, but as remarked above not much room available and the front corners I cannot place any bass traps as there is a door on the left, and the right has a book shelf. Anyways the most potent weapon in my arsenal is the Luxman CL-38uc preamp, which has tone controls with bass adjustable at 150/300/600 hz. Set at 150 and reduced the bass knob slightly, it works like a charm. Agreed purists may scoff but it works very well indeed.
Cheers,
Sid
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Another option would be to try a corner setup since your room is almost square
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Let me clarify a bit as to what I am looking for. Currently I have no issue with room nodes with my Wilson Sabrina. With the eq. on my Luxman preamp and adequate treatment with GIK 244 panels (and an Indian brand of tri traps type bass trap placed at the front ceiling) and current speaker placement, I am happy with the speakers with 99% of room node issues resolved. However the speakers are 5 years old, and I want to move on to a different sound, and am looking for sealed speakers in the $15-$20k range. In my research I have found only YG and Magico designing sealed floor standers. Hence was requesting if anyone tried the YG peaks series as they are available locally. TIA.
Cheers,
Sid
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During my backpacking days (many decades ago) in your country as a youth in search of truth, I stumbled upon a very old temple..Enormous structural stone pillars carved out of solid rock that played do re mi fa.... if you tapped on em (mind boggling). The ancient inhabitants of that land seemed to know something about Acoustics and some related matters that modern man has lost forever possibly.
Audiophiles are very scared of basic construction/remodeling in general. When the spouse is visiting the in-laws, just get a contractor, tear a wall and convert the 14 ft to 20 ft. The sonics can go up a notch from there.
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I have had YG Carmel 1s, Kipod Signature passive and Hailey Reference 2.2s.
The last is.of course the best. but too big for your room.
I wasn't impressed by the YG Peak series at Munich a couple of years ago. Have you considered a pair of used Carmel 2s. Plenty for sale and very good sound .
Should be very good in your room, particularly as it is a sealed box design
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@barry2013, thanks, I will look into Carmel2. Very difficult to find used in India, and if one imports the cost of shipment plus customs will make it close to new.
Cheers,
Sid
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My room is 11.5 x 11.5 x 9.5. I have the Sabrina X’s about 2 ft from the front wall and 3 from each side. no room treatments. They are powered by a Pass 250.8, with an ARC REF 6 pre and an MSB Discrete DAC and Premier power base, a REL S/510 and a full loom of Shunyata Alpha V1 cables. In my small listening room, they sound fantastic and I have no interest in replacing them.
Before you get upgrade-itis for new speakers, I would work with the room first, and maybe consider the Sabrina X’s, since you like your Wilsons, if you must get new speakers. If you are looking for a new sound, there are a ton of choices in your price range. Check out the Joseph Audio Perspectives . . . Very easy placement and sound great too.
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Just an idea, but have you considered just placing a thicker GIK trap directly behind your speakers, just on the floor, a couple inches from the wall? Take two from somewhere else and try it.
Leaving a gap between the wall and the trap will allow the trap to better deaden lower frequencies (and actually all frequencies). This also works with corner traps, btw, which are also an excellent idea.
Another idea is to put a slatted dispersion panel (typically hardwood slats on rubber) on the front wall behind the speakers and also the thicker trap in front of that. I did this in a literal bomb shelter and it worked wonders.
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Thanks moto man, yes even in my room the key to best sound especially tight and taut bass, is side wall distance. Currently I have them at 22 inches. If moved in to 36" they sound superb. Unfortunately my room is not 100% dedicated to music, it also houses a home theater and a pull down screen on the wall behind the speakers which is 106" diagonal and occupies approx 96" linear width. Hence I am a bit constrained on side wall distance and they are where they are. Anyways I am also leaning more and more towards the X, I think it measures better than the sabrina as per the reviews.
Cheers,
Sid
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