Update on good Ethernet switch

@rjmcinnis I've found that IT professionals can be the last ones to understand digital audio because it is so different that the stuff they have done their entire career and they contribute a lot to the slowness of adiophiles to figure it out.  I recommend keeping an open mind.  

Jerry

Big +1 @carlsbad2 They let dogma prevent their ears from hearing.  Their loss.

Enterprise networks have nothing to do with sound quality and give you exactly zero credibility here.

+1 -- Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking when I read the post. 

Luv a good pissing contest...

@soix so if network professionals have 0 credibility, than would land you and the rest at negative at least a million, meaning run, do not walk, run the exact opposite way of what you recommend.

@soix $30 switch marked up as “audiophile”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMFQ3YvR3Eo&t=1012s

the Uptone Etherregen components are cheap and add up to less than <$30 too, so more than 2000% markup.

@jerrybj  curious, how did you add a clock to a switch that doesn’t have an input for a clock?

That's not curiosity. Is rather, a subtle questioning of intelligence. 

Research does wonders when you don't know the items/upgrades discussed. 

@jerrybj  do you know what the clock is used for in a switch? 

For everyone saying that network professionals can’t provide value, do you realize what you are saying is that when you are sick (network issues), go the doctor (network professionals), but when you need a specialist (audio applications), go to your plumber (anonymous people on a random Internet forum).

commercial audio applications never use these products, simply because they don’t make a difference.

I have to wonder why these “IT Professionals” who obviously are not into audio peruse and troll these pages. I doubt any of them have actually designed and spec’d networking components. More likely they sit in windowless rooms building PCs for employees, push software updates to company PCs, route ethernet cables across the plant and office and install new data servers. The closest they get to an audio application is plugging in new network phones. (Which sound awful).

None of them have yet to rationally explain using math or measurement data why digital transmission of music is not affected by the gear or cabling whereas measurement data can show faults in the data stream due to power supply issues, EMI and affects of wire capacitance, etc. (They will deny the facts as quickly as they deny we hear a difference). Instead they always take the agnostic approach claiming we cannot hear what we are hearing and it’s impossible to alter the sound of digital. They can beat that drum all they want but this audio hobby will continue to press forward with new ideas and new discoveries. I’m reminded of the derision people faced for buying “fancy” speaker cables in the 1980s.

Maybe we should all pitch in a buy them a window.

I neither wish to converse with you nor answer what I find irrelevant questions.

You knowledge is of no use to me.

I find your arrogance very disconcerting and bothersome, and of no help in any way.

(And this time your attack on my intelligence was a little less subtle).

Good.  You’re finally getting it.  But let me help you understand the meaning of arrogance.  Babe Ruth was a baseball player.  Perhaps you have heard of him.  When he stepped up to the batting plate he would point his bat at the stands indicating where he was going to hit the ball.  More often than not he would put the ball right where he pointed.  That is confidence.  Other ball players would step up to the plate and point their bat at the stands too.  Only they had very little chance of hitting the ball let alone putting it into the stands.  That is arrogance.

From my point of view you are arrogant because you have neither shown us your stereo system or demonstrated any knowledge of audio or acknowledged that someone can hear a difference in streaming audio.

Fred, unless you have built stereo systems for yourself or others or worked in the audio industry your IT related comments are not relevant. 
it is like me asking my plumber which power cord to buy for my amp. 

Unless, of course, my plumber is into audio. I’m sure he can afford it.

it is interesting, when ’one trick pony’ trolls like this come on forums and denounce the value of certain hifi gear based on their 'experience' elsewhere, argue endlessly and defensively, i believe the net result is actually more interest is developed in the thing they are putting down by those whom are evaluating the product...

what happens, as we see here is more actual hifi enthusiasts feel compelled to openly state that they have tried xx and have gained positive value from it

funny how folks don’t think through the consequences of their statements and chosen foodfights... or maybe they live in their own world, only feel the need to spout what they (believe they) know and it is pretty much as myopic as that...

"Network professionals have 0 credibility".

Who, exactly, designs the network interfaces for every music streaming device?

Incoming ad hominem attack in 3... 2... 1...

"None of them have yet to rationally explain using math or measurement data why digital transmission of music is not affected by the gear or cabling whereas measurement data can show faults in the data stream due to power supply issues, EMI and affects of wire capacitance, etc."

You are completely missing the point, or you simply do not understand the difference between analog error propagation and digital error correction. NOBODY is arguing that the digital data stream is unaffected by noise. The point is that the numerous layers of error correction all along the digital signal pathway, which includes dozens of commercial switches between the music streaming service and your home ISP gateway, detect and reject damaged data packets, and request that such packets be resent.

You are missing the point that DACs and music streamers are affected by electrical noise carried in on the network wiring.  It is not just about the 1’s and 0’s.  There is an analog component to the ethernet.

It's really disappointing to see how some members treat others. There are members with vast technical knowledge who post beneficial and accurate information to help us efficiently improve our audio systems and they are attacked and dismissed. It reminds me of people who believe the earth is flat - no amount of proof, technical knowledge, or patient explanation is sufficient.

I heard the flat earthers have members all around the globe.

OK, how about this solution then? Get rid of your switch altogether. Get the best Cat 8 cable you can afford, and hook it up directly between your ISP gateway and your streamer. If it matters to you, hire an electrician to move your gateway as close as possible to your streamer device. Don’t forget to create a Faraday cage around all of your equipment and cables. An aluminum faraday cage hat atop your head will also work wonders by intercepting communications from Planet Audio Malarkey.

"You are missing the point that DACs and music streamers are affected by electrical noise carried in on the network wiring."

So, you’re saying that the analog domain of your DAC/Streamer is unshielded?

No one said unshielded.  

I think dalek is mocking us audio hobbyists.  I'm not sure.  Still looking in the galactic registry for a planet called Audio Malarkey.

@tonywinga @carlsbad2  Thanks for the information. I apparently wasn’t clear in my question.  ALL of my audio system connections are hard-wired.  The network dedicated backbone, i.e., router to router only, is a 5 GHz high bandwidth wireless connection.  The audio streamer/server is connected by Ethernet to a router.

 I can’t use Ethernet for the router to router connection due to the house design without incurring an unacceptable cost.

 I have a separate home theater system with an Apple TV 4K.  I’ve tried both Ethernet and wireless connections and prefer Ethernet because I get zero dropouts on 4K Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos sound movies.

‘I’ve never had a dropout or glitch in the separate audio system music streaming.  I’m just looking for best sound possible.  

If any of you guys maybe considering this SW-8 Ethernet switch contact me and see the size picture-difference between a netgear switch 4 lbs vs 8 Oz .and any other info .

I just upgraded the power cord  the synergistic fuse I already have in my 12v LPS to my Motorola  8702 modem- router which is a nice Sonic upgrade vs the stock wall wart.but This new switch with power cord and much less $$ Hifi tuning supreme fuse which I already had a 1.25 amp slow blow  fuse  well worth the purchase and iowned several Audiophile switches 

@rjmcinnis 

Please save your breath.  I understand your frustration.  I have also worked with networking 20+ years and you are trying to teach calculus to crocodiles here.

Save your breath.

I only visit this site to have a good laugh these days and that is all.

Oh, another sun starved worker from the IT Crowd here to mock us.  

Do you guys ever do work or just entertain yourselves with these forums all day?

I recall an IT worker around 1990 at work who liked to play DOOM.  With a keystroke his screen would jump back to DOS.

You know, I was an Engineering Manager for many years. The four letters that caused me the most headaches were HR and IT. HR, well I won’t go there but IT had two favorite phrases: "We can’t" and "You can’t". They have developed a culture of oppression in the corporate world and so it should be no surprise that they would migrate to these forums to spread their oppressive culture.

I retired and still can't get away from them.  

PS.  My home network is great and reliable.  What was all the fuss about at work?

My previous experience with ~$1K switches was rather meh. I tried English Electric 8Switch and EtherRegen and was underwhelmed. I had all but written off switches but a recent experience with the Ansuz power switch and a Telgartner M12 switch (borrowed from a local friend) convinced me otherwise. Like most things, the difference is not night and day but once you experience the positive changes it's kinda hard to go back. Based on my experience, you really need to go higher up in the food chain to realize the benefits of audiophile grade switches. But, who knows, perhaps the SW8 switch is as good as the more expensive ones?

@tonywinga No need to feed the trolls. They will simply never try anything different and continue to overstate the 'reach' of their knowledge. Remember the cable wars? You don't hear much about them anymore, right? 

Arafiq, you are right.  I know I shouldn’t but I do it in jest- except for my tirade about my work days it’s fun banter but I guess I need to stop.

Not cake hole again? 

The best advice he gave?

People like me should ’stand in the corner and bang their head against the wall’, for believing switches, ethernet cables, power cables, pricier Dacs make a difference.

I may be a crocodile, but at least I’m not a dinosaur like him.

@txp1 

I had a problem where I was unable to run ethernet to my system.

One suggestion was using a wifi extender, and then its ethernet out to my streamer. I did this successfully, and it was an improvement over wifi transmission to the streamer.

Since the improvement was audible, I then bought mid priced/reasonable quality ethernet cables. Meicord Opal on the modem/router end, and Triode Wire Labs Freedom on the streamer end.

From what I read on different forums, your best ethernet cables should be last in the chain.

jjss49

... when ’one trick pony’ trolls like this come on forums and denounce the value of certain hifi gear based on their 'experience' elsewhere, argue endlessly and defensively, i believe the net result is actually more interest is developed in the thing they are putting down ...

That's true in my case. Once I got serious about audio streaming, I had an ethernet line installed to run to my streamer and I've been very pleased with the results. But I may try one of these switches on a 30-day return guarantee - after all, I've been surprised with audio experiment results in the past. But until I have that experience, I don't challenge what others say they hear.

I do think there's nothing like a hard wired network. There's also nothing like a pro who knows how to snake wires - I've been amazed at what they've been able to do in my house. It's really not that expensive and it eliminates a lot of potential issues.

@jerrybj Thanks!  You addressed and resolved both of my concerns with actual experience!

The LHY-8 switch has a bunch more inside then the eastern electric switch 

we compared them and loooked inside for your monies nothing better under $1k 

You all know that banks and the military all depend on the exact same network protocols that we use to stream music, right?  And the switching and routing technology is all based on the same protocols. 

If the data was altered in any way in transit, the numbers would be off.  There are billions of financial transactions that occur (probably daily) involving billions of dollars and if the numbers didn't match our banking system would collapse (because you wouldn't trust it).  

Professional switches and routers are built to handle more simultaneous data, or have more ports, or have better management capabilities, plus you pay for the vendor's support which is crucial when something goes wrong.  But a nice Cisco switch is going to follow the same protocols that the cheap Linksys switch follows because, ultimately, you need to be able to connect one to the other and have them work.  And they do!  Because the ISPs, the backbone carriers, and whoever is hosting Qobuz or Tidal is using those very expensive Cisco switches (or some other enterprise-level brand) and many of their subscribers are using Linksys (or TP Link or whatever). 

There are a LOT of switches/routers between Qobuz or Tidal and your streamer.  Qobuz is NOT using some esoteric audiophile router/switch because their IT needs to be able to get 24/7 support from vendor experts if anything goes down.  

The data in a TCP stream arrives exactly as it was sent.  However, if you lose packets, you can have problems and that is a real issue, but packet loss is most likely going to occur on the Internet between the Qobuz servers and your ISP router and not on your internal network.  But it could.  And wireless adds a whole other avenue for things to go wrong where the data has challenges getting from the transmitter to the receiver.  But if the data gets from the sender to the receiver, it should be exactly the same ones and zeros.

So what I'm saying is that, as long as your network is working like it is supposed to (and better hardware can help ensure that), it should transparently transport the sound.  Better hardware could help make sure that the data gets transmitted properly.  I suppose. 

I am not arguing that you don't hear a difference.  But why are you hearing that difference?  Anyone have any insight to that?  What does that audiophile quality switch do that makes it better?  Do they guarantee no packet loss? 

I guess in the end if it sounds better to you, than that is all that matters.  And that is fine.  It's like buying a more expensive rack to support your gear just because it looks nicer than another one.  Perfectly valid.  But at least you know why the nicer rack is nicer.  I think the challenge here is that no one can quantify why those switches sound better.  

I am not arguing that you don’t hear a difference. But why are you hearing that difference? Anyone have any insight to that? What does that audiophile quality switch do that makes it better?

@charliech What you’re completely missing here is noise, among other things, which is critical in an audio application and not as much in industrial applications. Add a better linear power supply to a switch, router, or streamer and you’ll almost certainly get notably better sound quality than using an onboard SMPS. Also, audiophile switches, streamers, etc. employ other components to keep noise, jitter, etc. to an absolute minimum because in streaming minimizing noise and using better clocks is huge. Full stop. I know on its face it seems a bit odd that these things should make such a significant difference in getting better sound, but they just do and there’s really no getting around it. Embrace it or deny it, that’s entirely up to you.

It all matters in audio. Besides, if part of a $1 million wire transfer arrives a little late but still arrives, its still money. If parts of your music arrive a little late....who knows right? I can state emphatically though that large amounts of money with embedded jitter causes some trepidation when trying to spend it.

@ghasley Heh heh. I agree that many of my larger audio expenditures were accompanied by a good amount of jitter on my part.  I just don’t wanna hear it is all.

I love analog audio logic applied to not just digital audio, but network stacks and data transmission protocols. My car works a lot better when I feed her sugar cubes and loosen up the bridle too.

Edit:  Ok that was uncivil.  I had a rough day and now I feel better.  But sorry.  

Bottom line, we don’t know what to measure and/or there’s a poor correlation to what we can measure and what we “subjectively” like to hear.  Measurements are no substitute for demoing to find what “you” like.  Our hearing acuity is much more complex than current science can measure.

Some come on this forum expecting us to “prove it” before they may even consider (if at all) to purchase.  Many don’t bother to try themselves which is the only way to find “their sonic preferences”.  
 

Also, a few seem to have preconceived notions such as “it’s false until proven true”, “it’s true until proven false “, “my reasoning is universal truth for all”, “my perception is universal truth for all”.  
I simply look at the information, and if enough people are experiencing improvements with an audio component or tweak, then “chances are” I’ll get a similar result- there are no guarantees.

For network switches, I’ll probably settle with Network Acoustics’ switch, filter, cable.  I also read good things about Synergistic Research switch and Ethernet cable.  Reports that additional switches have offer sonic upticks but at diminishing returns.  Not sure if I want to spend additional $ down this rabbit hole.  I’m not a fan of messy looking extra eternal linear power supplies, external master clocks, and the cabling needed for them.  

@kennyc : According to the Network Acoustics website, the Rubicon network switch is no lomger available. Do you have any info on this that's not been published?

via email correspondence to Network Acoustics:

I can confirm we are launching a new reference switch and timing-wise we are still on target for June and if you’d like to kept up to date I can add you to our newsletter.

 

In the meantime, i can give you some headlines:

 

• 6 x universal 1Gb/s rj45 ports
• 2 x dedicated 100mb/s rj45 ports
• 4 x SFP ports
• Features proprietary power and ethernet filtering systems
• Case machined out single piece of Aluminium and available in silver or black
• Supplied with our own reference 12 v power supply developed specifically for the switch.
• Dimensions: 300 (w) x 47 (h) x 215mm (d)
• Guide Price £3500 (final price TBC
• Free worldwide Fedex express shipping
• 30 Money back “try-it-at” home no quibble guarantee.

Not sure if off topic, but I’m guessing many are interested in audiophile switches to reduce noise.  

Fiber isolation has been favored by many to reduce noise, but I’m hesitant as I’m not fond of visual setup and some say that fiber may degrade sonics.  If I do try fiber isolation, I like the one box solution:

https://ediscreation.com/product/fiber-box/

@kennyc 

Teradak has a couple of all-in-one solutions as well

@jerrybj 

thanks for the tip 

https://kamaudio.com/TeraDak-T-S211-media-converter

https://kamaudio.com/TeraDak-T-S212-SFP-media-converter

@jerrybj   How does this T-S212 work? Ethernet signal in and out of the same box to filter it and lower noise floor or do you need 2 of them connected on both ends?