@jjss49 for your information I never said it's my business how anyone spends their money. What I said MANY TIMES was the exact opposite and that I am happy for anyone to have the wealth to buy whatever they please
un-becoming an audiophile
Yes, the title is what is sounds like.
I remember long ago, as a boy, I used to be able to enjoy music without picking apart a track. is the bass tight? is the midrange clear and life-like? is the treble resolution spot on? What about imaging/sound stage?
Most people have this very same superpower - not being an audiophile. They can play a song from the worst earbuds, laptop speakers, or even computer speakers - and enjoy the music; even sing along. They aren’t thinking about "how it sounds" or scrutinizing the audio quality. Actually, they couldn’t care less. They can spend their time on other life pursuits and don’t feel a need to invest big money (or much money at all) in the hi-fi hobby.
Any psychologists or scientists in the building? (please no Amir @amir_asr ) since you are neither! ...despite the word "science" being in your domain name - audio science review.
Please, I beg you. Help me get away from this hobby.
Imagine - being able to enjoy all of your favourite music - while still achieving that dopamine rush, along with serotonin, and even oxytocin - the bonding hormone, which can be released while listening to songs with deep emotional messages, or love songs.
We’re very much like food critics or chefs in a sense. We want the best of something (in this case, audio) I’m sure michelin star chefs face the same thing in their own right...can’t enoy or even eat the food unless it’s up to a certain standard.
When we audiophiles want to listen to music, we often play it on a resolving system, so as to partake in a a "high-end" listening experience. We often pick apart music and fault the audio components in our system, cables etc. All of this takes away from the experience of enjoying music as a form of art/entertainment. It has been said that some famous artists don’t even own a high-end audio system.
I gained a great deal of wisdom of from the documentary - Greek Audiophile. In it, we have audiophiles from all walks of life. Their families think they’re crazy for spending all this money on audio. They say it sounds "nice" or "real" but still can’t justify it.
I think it’s all in the brain. If we can reset our brains (or me at least) I can still enjoy music without needing a great system for it.
- Jack
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@grislybutter +1. I would certainly NOT recommend Audiogon as a forum for anybody young or any age just wanting to learn about fine audio for music listening purposes... much too often I see a "how much money can I spend on something to achieve an (at best) incremental improvement (if that)" rather than the other way around, namely "how can I spend money wisely to achieve rich and beautiful sound quality to listen to music?" A money-is-no-object attitude really is a disservice. Grisly's point is well-taken, by me anyway. I suspect much money is being spent more on "bling" and "shiny objects"... and, as my reading buddy Suze Orman says: if you need things to validate your self-esteem, then you ought to be working on your self esteem first, and not your acquisitions of objects. |
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the fallacy expressed by some, like the comment above, is that many/most experienced, dedicated folks here with money, spending fairly decent money on this pursuit are doing it stupidly, and for all the wrong reasons (bling, self aggrandisement, impress others, what have you...) hint -- you are wrong can’t speak for all, but for many, many here whom i know personally, who post regularly to share their experiences, learnings, observations, advice ... are sharp, invariably accomplished (and very nice) people -- who as far as i can didn’t get here by being shallow, tin-eared chumps. throwing good money in after bad... here is a well articulated view for both side of the coin ... skip to 3:00 if you are tight on time |
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In the car, with the factory audio (old BMW), the music sounds great. In the gym, with ear buds, the music pushes me a little harder. Sounds great. At home, with huge Magnepan 20.7s, which my wife insists are too big and I have to get rid of them, I spend half my time tweaking their position or mine. I also find that some of my favorite old music (1950s and 1960s) was poorly recorded and/or too compressed. Not a problem with ear buds or in the car. Go figure. It's always something. On the hobby side, I enjoy all the You Tube videos for audiophiles. Better than most everything else on TV. To sum up. It's the music and how it makes me happy.
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@jjss49 Just watched your attached video. Excellent, thanks for posting. It puts into clear focus what crops up on far too many posts. Maybe it should be made required viewing by all members. 😂 |
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Luckily for me, my memories including thinking back to the 'good ol' times' are actual proof that even at the young age (say 16?) I already WAS and audiophile. By the age of 18, had become full blown. Proof: even as teenagers, we listened to - gasp - CLASSICAL music. Not because we LIKED the music (hell no), but rather because the pop music of that time (1980s) was recorded by sound engineers in appalling and disgusting fashion that made it USELESS for 'qualfied' listening. Unlike classic audio engineers, who had mastered they recording over decades. So still (or better: again, reviving the hobby after a 30 year absence) , music is still pretty much a means to judge and enjoy the hardware. |
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Good thread, and it describes my intermittent struggle. The yin and the yang. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Does the audio system exist to serve the music and is it the means to the end, which is listening to music? Or is the gear the goal? There is no wrong answer, and each varies with the individual. I remember stealing my older brothers' 45 rpm records and listening to them on my crap turntable in the basement (The Everly Brothers), and it was about the music. Then, 12 or 13 years old, lying on the floor between the speakers of my parents' big console hi-fi ("audio furniture") listening to Dionne Warwick (mom's records, which I still love) and The Association. It was always about the music in the beginning, and still is, I think. Music creates powerful emotions in me.
I go through phases where I renew my subscription to Absolute Sound and get sucked into the black hole of looking at expensive gear I can’t afford but still fantasize over and against which I measure my own modest system. Or, gear that I can afford, thinking of change for its own sake, incremental improvements, And I find that sometimes diminishes my enjoyment of my system. And then I let my subscription lapse and occasionally read audio reviews online but mostly focus on listening to what I have and reprioritizing the music. The music has always been it for me though—the music is what got me into buying hi-fi gear in my teens and early twenties, to try and improve the experience of enjoying music in my home. I love live music too, though I hate big venue stadium concerts and the like. Personally, I love listening to artists in smaller clubs and more intimate venues, but not everyone plays those venues. I love being able to almost synthesize that experience at home.
I went to the audio show in Seattle last summer (after not going to shows for 20 years) and listened to up to million dollar systems, and I have to say it did not create too much envy. I’m able, in my golden years, to intellectualize it, knowing that if I had more money, I might spend more money (no, I would, to a point) but my frugality would hold the law of diminishing returns in check. The 80% that you spend to get that last 20%! I don’t fantasize about a million dollar system, but a $100-200k one, with the perfect listening room, would be awesome. If audio is one’s main pastime—considering what some people spend on cars and boats—that doesn’t seem to be an outrageous sum. $50k for a lifetime of pleasure? A bargain! "Honey, it keeps me at home and we can do it together!" Her: "Turn it down!"
I’ve known people who absolutely love music but are always chasing that last 10 or 20%. At some point, it’s important to be able to look at yourself honestly and wonder if you’re the dog at the dog track chasing that rabbit, which you will never catch. The finish line always gets moved. If the kids are going hungry or your spouse is threatening divorce because of the money and time you spend on your obsession (whatever it is)—re-think and re-balance your life. Obsessions can be unhealthy.
One thing that has fundamentally changed my listening habits and perspective is my subscription to ROON (with Tidal). I have discovered more new music and artists in the last 2 years than I have in the previous 20, and it’s been glorious. I highly recommend it. It has made me refocus on the music, and again the system is just the tool for enjoyment. I can also enjoy rocking out in the car or on the bluetooth speaker almost as much as listening to the "big rig" system, though it isn’t the same. Almost. My brain and memory kick in, I sing along, and add to the experience to fill in the gaps that the listening device doesn’t supply. The brain works like that. I’ve been told that many really good musicians don’t have exotic audio systems, because their brain supplies them with much of the music experience, augmented by their ears. Fascinating—people hear differently. |
I think the solution for you may be to go to live concerts. Your brain will focus on enjoying music, not sound. I find it hard not to listen to the music in a live concert. In my opinion, many audiophiles do not enjoy music and are shallow in their appreciation. Sound quality is an important but secondary concern. |
Wow!! I've been "on the verge" of coming to the same conclusion, but never "got there". You have verbalized (and made real) what's been going on somewhere in the part of my brain that helps me come to rational-----heartfelt----conclusions. You have hit the nail on the head----so very simple----yet, I had been subconsciously avoiding "going there". Thank you so very much-----free at last to simply enjoy the music---- then again, the reality is that I always was!! |
Nonsense, you don’t need any psychological or scientific help for your problem, probably philosophical approach would help. Audio itself implies feature of Quality, so you can’t separate that feature while you consuming audio information. Yes, I can agree that some times audio could become too fatigued for perception due to complicated high quality reproduction. If it bothering you too much and often, but you still want to enjoy tracks without picking them apart you can switch to phone listening or lyric reading. |
You analyze yourself very precisely here. Maybe you are stuck in an analytical approach to life and not just to music. Directly experiencing music means escaping that analytical mind. Like when we hear a live band and feel like dancing. The music goes directly from our hearing to our feet and avoids the frontal lobe. So get off your couch and move. Hum. Sing along. Remember when you would sing Bohemian Rhapsody at the top of your lungs in the car? Or play air guitar to Van Halen? Do whatever you have to do to feel the music. |
One way to look at this is nothing man made is perfect. And if you think it is, that is in the ear of the beholder! I personally after growing up as a musician, audio enthusiast know what I think sounds accurate. There are so many aspects to building a great audio system this varies with your ears, your taste, and your budget. In my case. I am gifted enough to build my own speakers. I can change anything at will to Taylor the sound to my liking. I actually have them so close, I have little, if anything I want to change. I built them with a 101db capable compression tweeter so as my ears in my older age, I can infinitely tweak it, or the midrange. I tried to think of obsolescence avoidance when I designed them. My point is that if you love music, continue that. Being an audiophile in my mind is someone who has the resources to collect music, audio systems worthy of reproduction close to the original recording, and advancement of technology to people less educated in the matter. I am only partially audiophile because I branch off from the normal with DYI, and a limited budget. The aspect I do qualify is my excitement in audio electronics, seeing quality equipment, enthusiastic, and most of all a love for music and its relative accurate reproduction. |
When I started buying decent/better equipment in college I spent a WAY higher percentage of what I had on it and records than I do today. The equipment especially bordered on obsession, constantly swapping equipment. Looking back, much more than I should have. Now, I think I should spend more, but I just can't justify it. My system sounds fantastic and I am always caught by surprise hearing something new or better. When a small (or big) change improves things a lot, I can appreciate it, it is just harder and harder to do. I will continue to try to buy records I will listen to in my normal playing rotation (not "collecting" ones I will never listen to) and only buy equipment when something breaks irreperably (thankfully an extremely rare occurrence) or the stylus burns out on the cartridge (retip or get a new one) or I get some "mad money" that I feel compelled to spend on new speakers or an amp. My expectations of the improvement/returns on the investment are diminished, as they should be. A much bigger change would be moving my system into a new room, which isn't happening. The people who are into the equipment as a hobby and are still like I was in college are free to do what they want, always trying to improve. But once you see the light, it is a relaxing comfort. I think as you get older, that is how it should be with pretty much everything. It is called wisdom. |
I've been running the same loudspeakers since 2006. The thing which always struck me about the Linkwitz Orion DIY open baffle system is how true and real they are in the mid-range. They especially excel on voices and piano, and that's saying something. They've always imaged pretty well, though there are other systems which image better, but most of my listening is done while I cook dinner, so I'm not terribly worried about imaging and such. It's just a pleasure to listen to. |
Dennis Had Inspire Amplifier and Preamplifier, purchased used. Pass ACA Class A monoblocks Marantz 1S51 turntable and Benz cartridge. 200 mainly classic jazz albums. |
Absolutely. 99.45% of the population enjoys the music that way. Nothing wrong with that. I probably spend more time listening to the music in my car in my daily commute (I have to work for a living) than in my audio systems at home. My question is why are you in an Audiogon forums if spending a dime more on audio than that 99+% spends is outrageous? Throwing Grisly Bear type tantrums. Relax. Chill. Do whatever is good for you. Don’t judge the others. And always pay the gas bill first before spending any money in discretionary items
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6 digit income is poverty in certain areas of the country/world. it’s not that hard to make a 6 digit income since the year 2000. It also doesn’t mean you will spend a $200,000 on an audio system or $200,000 on a car. Why spend hundreds of thousands on an audio system or a car when you can invest the money and make money, then use the money you make to buy your desired audio equipment, car, and house with cash |
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It reminded me of a friend who owned two cafes and then opened a bar and she said: when people buy a coffee, they sit down and drink it. When they buy a beer or a glass of wine, they drink it and come back for another one and keep buying. She turned the cafes into bars as well. |
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not to be argumentative, but just to offer a contrary point of view on this statement above... because life is short, money isn’t everything, you can’t take it with you... investing money has its risks too... and most importantly, a good life lived is about creating wonderful experiences, memories and good feelings that money well spent can afford us... |
My impression of many of the contributors to Audiogon is best described by the word "addiction". I have been monitoring this forum for over three years now - and sense a prevailing "dissatisfaction" amongst the members here. This is particularly evident when comparing Audiogon to forums like Audiokarma,, Vinyl Engine, and HiFi Engine - where maintenance, repair, and upgrade of beloved components are fully addressed. I must admit that I have been involved with this hobby for over 65 years - and thus have a special interest in "vintage" components and recordings. Please note that the greatest advances in high fidelity recording and component audio engineering occurred in the 1950's and 1960"s. Early stereo recordings made by RCA and Mercury still "hold their own" compared to the prevailing "digital" techniques used today! Also note that monophonic LP's comprise some of the most treasured items in my extensive vinyl collection. The music itself is of primary importance; as some of the contributors to this thread have emphasized. Let us not be turned away from the music in a desperate search for the latest $5000 power cable that will not produce an iota of true satisfaction.when listening to a reference recording!
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@vinylguy2016 I think there are two types: the high rollers with money no object and the hobbyists here. When the two mix (hobbyist ask a question, high rollers make costly suggestions/suggestions down a spending path or hobbyists comment on a "which one of my 55 cartridges, or do I need a 56th") - there is friction. I find it awesome to learn from people with a lot of gear and experience, but I still am in a completely different, removed world, |
I guess I've always thought the this whole thing was about the music. It is for me. I grew up in a musical family, listened to lots of music, played music and a youth and at age 72 am constantly seeking out new music to listen to. I would rather listen to good music badly reproduced than bad music played on the world's finest system. That said, hearing as much as possible of a piece of music as close as possible to the way it was performed is great. More to hear, more to learn more to love.
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There are certainly more than the two extreme types @grislybutter refers to. I think a larger (probably the largest) group are people looking to get the most bang for the audio buck somewhere in between the cost no object @mikelavignes of the world (if there are any more) who is extremely knowledgeable and invests time and funds and is generous with his experience, and the extreme tinkers/hobbyists/tube rollers like @millercarbon and misers like @mahgister(although haven't seen their posts lately) looking for any, even the most questionable tweaks that can make the most minimal of differences, if any, on a "highly resolving" system, whatever that means (expensive?). There are the prove it to me on paper ones, who if they can't measure it say it doesn't sound like anything or of it is measurable it sounds like something. There are the close to cost no object ones that share their sometimes biased or myopic opinions which may nonetheless be of value, and lastly the ones just here to read the humorous comments. So that's at least 6 types. You can also add the vinyl only, tube only (who frequently intersect), digital only, electrostatics only, McIntosh lovers and haters, etc. etc. And don't forget the trolls. |
@grislybutter I'm sorry that has happened, it certainly isn't something I advocate as I believe in free speech. Here is the problem with your supposition about why your post were deleted. I am not a rich man by most standards; then again, I believe rich is a fluid term. I am rich to some but the poor in our country are considered rich by the rest of the world's reckoning. Twenty-five years ago I was a homeless man on the streets of New Orleans. There is an economic ladder, a legal one, available for any who care to climb it, at least in our good ol' USA. Like any ladder it has two directions based on the choices you make. You know how I display my compassion for people? I provide them jobs where they can earn a paycheck and have dignity and ambition. I probably make less than 70% of the members of this forum. I admire them. Guess what? People who have money are the most charitable! I have no children to depend on me, that helps. My wife and I care for my mother who has Alzheimer's. We feel as if we know best how to spend our money on what we need and what we want. Always amazed at people who feel the need to decide for other's how their money should be spent. Point is, they didn't remove it because I'm rich! |
@dadork the word rich wasn't about a number but about an attitude.
for one, I disagree with this sentence, I donate a much bigger percentage of my income than the most charitable rich people, not to mention I pay way more taxes. I won't repeat my points, other than: people in the US have opportunities to become rich. In the rest of the world (aside from a few other countries) they don't. People commenting here often display an attitude which ignores the fact that they can afford things because they are lucky (to have born here/be here). They have typical rich people attitude. (I have no problem with how they spend their money - NONE OF MY BUSINESS, I have a problem with how they think they deserved it) At the end you and I disagree 100%, and we can leave it at that. |
@grislybutter "not to mention I pay way more taxes." This is a somewhat silly comment that gets brought up a lot. A person who earns more pays more taxes. You can argue about the percentage of gross income that is paid but it's just not true that rich people don't pay more taxes. An estimated 72.5 million households -- or 40% of total households -- will pay no federal income taxes for tax year 2022, according to an analysis from the Tax Policy Center. |
@bigtwin Silly? Really? I think you could have made your point without the degrading adjective. PERCENTAGE is what’s what I said/meant, but if you want to misinterpret it, whatever... "bigger percentage of my income" applied to my taxes as well. I think I have a better idea about what I pay for taxes (relative to my income) than you do, so I am at a loss with your statement.
A person who reports more, to be correct, And I know exactly how many households pay 0 federal income tax. I am paying ~40 cents on every dollar to federal, state and local taxes. Not including sales tax. My wealthy acquaintances regular brag about how little taxes they pay with accounting tricks and feel sorry for me to have to pay my dues in full. I find absolutely nothing silly with my statement but it seems to me I am the punching bag here, you guys attack my character and disparage my statements rather than arguing the substance of what I said. As I said we live in our own bubbles and agree on practically nothing regarding this subject. |
I've never attacked your character. On the other hand, I've been called an uncaring rich guy because I spend money on something I like when it's mine to do with. You elect people who vote for the tax policies you abhor. The larger the government the larger the bureaucracy hence the larger the cost to all of the taxpayers and more people will be able to enjoy less and less. State government laws that were passed in California are pricing people right out of affordable housing for all economic brackets except for the wealthy, Rich people aren't the problem; an overgrown and unwieldy government is. If waste, fraud and bloat were eliminated people could live comfortably without others bemoaning our choices. |
@grislybutter Don't get your shorts in a knot. For starters, I said it's a silly comment that comes up a lot. Indicating many people like to say it. I was not meaning to disparage you directly, I am not calling you silly, sorry if you took it that way, but I am am calling that particular comment silly. And you did not state you pay a larger "percentage" in tax. You made that claim about your charitable giving, and I applaud your generosity. You exact comment on tax was "not to mention I pay way more taxes." My issue with that statement, and all those who repeat it, is the simple fact, people who earn the big incomes pay more total tax dollars than those who earn less. Your words "A person who reports more, to be correct" indicates people who are dishonest and lie to the tax department are the ones who pay less. That's a discussion for another day. As for your "rich friends" who brag about paying less tax than you, I can only suggest they are full of s-h-i-t. Some of the biggest lies people like to tell is who much they make and how little they pay. Anyway, this is supposed to be a forum about music. Sorry again if we are getting off track. Usually happens by the time any thread hits page 3. We are both entitled to our own views. |
