Turntable upgrade recommendations: SME vs AMG vs Technics vs other
I've recently upgraded most of my system, but I still have a Rega P8, with Linn Krystal cartridge, which I like, but I've heard that there may be better options.
I have Sound Lab electrostatic speakers, Ypsilon Hyperior amplifiers, an Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 pre-amplifier, and am thinking about an Ypsilon phono stage to match with my system, and a turntable/cartridge. I listen to almost entirely classical, acoustic music.
Based on my very limited knowledge, and simple research, I've been looking at three brands, each of which is a different type of turntable: SME (suspension), AMG (mass), and Technics (direct drive).
What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different types of turntables, and of those in particular?
@ivanj, I have 645-8s. They were a custom job as I could not tolerate the width of the standard 845. I am definitely in agreement with most of what you are saying. Turntable isolation is critical. However, wall shelves can be a detriment under certain circumstances. It is not like walls do not vibrate. They can vibrate more than an appropriate built in on a concrete floor.
Yes, phono cartridges are inherently balanced devices. But, I would never put a long cable on a tonearm. I would put it on the Phonostage. Many now have balanced outputs.
Absent the ability to put the turntable in another room there are other ways to lower sound pressure levels around the turntable and cartridge. Using a suspended turntable under a dust cover is one solution. Mark Dohmann told me that he is working on such a solution for the Helix.
I have listened to Peter's Strain Gauge on his system and I was duly impressed. The only stick in the mud is it's tracking ability. I never heard it misstrack but the measured data is not complimentary. If you do not tend to play difficult records it is not a problem you would notice.
NB: I am a Sound Lab dealer. I have U-545s and M-745s. I've heard just about everything phono-wise including the early Goldmunds. I guess I am a kindred spirit who is not trying to sell you anything although I am sure I will get brick-bats on that one. Frankly, I just don't need the money for the aggravation - turntables are a special business. Don't do home theatre/automation either for the same reason. That being said....
Spending $ on equipment is fun but:
1.For the biggest sonic improvement, if you can, I would move your phono system into another room from your control preamp. Since Ypsilon is balanced equipment, they claim/one of their design nexus is to be able to run long runs of true balanced cables. (There are places that sell inexpensive end of record arm-lifters so you don't have to worry about sprinting to pick up the arm.) Benchmark Media Systems makes custom balanced cables that have a lower noise and interference floor than expensive 'magic' cables.
2. If you can I would hang the TT from well-anchored studs in the ceiling or a wall stand. You might want to try this with your Rega so you have a performance baseline. Since I take it you are an MD you realize what I am implying.
3. I find with the high-priced MC cartridges, eg Koetsu, is that they have a roll-off beginning at 10 kHZ. Very euphonic but not very accurate. Cartridges used to come with frequency response and channel balance print-outs but few do now.
4. I think the strain-gauge Peter sells is transparent and is flat in the bass unlike the strain gauges of the past that had a 'built in loudness control'. I'd also consider that latest AT ART 1000-series cartridges especially if you can get someone to set it up properly, electronically. I surmise it might work well in one of the damped arms. I also like certain EMT and Dynavector MCs. Arms that set their tracking force and anti-skate with a spring are superior IMHO.
5. Since a MC cartridge is a true balanced system, an XLR tonearm cable and phono preamp with balanced inputs are worth considering.
Yes, there is always some "cost conscious snobbery of high-endism", but I find that there is also a performance difference with the coat as well. I have a 35 year old Krell KSA-100, which would only cost $1500 today, and it sounds really good, and while listening to it I am left wondering, "How could things sound much better?". . .but then I compare it to a newer $35k amplifier, and the newer one definitely sounds better, but then the next question is, "Is it worth it?" I suppose that’s the question each individual must answer for himself.
Yes, no doubt the SOTA clamp helps with warped records alot, insofar as holding them down, but the sonic difference is very significant even on flat, non-warped records: *everything* is much clearer, cleaner, and more detailed.
It looks like the screw-on clamp (marketed as the I-clamp) is quite a bit less expensive than the clasp-on clamp (marketed as the reflex clamp). I don’t know what the sonic difference, if any, would be between the two. . .
@drbond - I spoke with a Rega dealer who is also a SOTA dealer and asked him about the clamps for a P8 and they have two models, the reflex that is 8 oz and the screw down is 4 oz. He thought it would help for warped records, and he only had the 4 oz one in stock, which I guess he recommends because of the lower weight.
Since probably 97-99% of my records are not warped, I didn't go ahead and get one.
Do you find it helps for all records, or primarily warped ones? Also, as an FYI, he prefers Rega to SOTA tables.
Funny story. To prove in principle that my contention he needed more gain in order to soothe his itch, I lent the owner of the Ypsi my own 25-year-old Quicksilver phonolinepreamp which is worth maybe $1200. I hooked it up in his system so the signal from the Ypsi passed through the Quicksilver linestage section and then to his amplifiers. In sum, he had a SUT of unknown turns ratio feeding the Ypsi which was feeding the Q. Results were dramatically better. He genuinely loved it. I keep the Q around for a spare and did not really want to sell it, but the point was made that he did not have to spend a fortune in order to add some gain via an active linestage. However, such is the cost conscious snobbery of high end-ism (more $ = better sound) that he replaced my Q with an albeit very fine VAC linestage costing him another $26K.
I've owned or worked on many turntables over the last five decades. Regardless of sound quality, none have been as much of a joy to use as SME.
In addition, very few other turntable manufacturers have the equipment and skills to achieve the incredibly tight tolerances that you find in all SME turntables and tonearms; one of the many reasons for their excellent sound quality.
Yes, it should be common knowledge among Ypsilon VPS-100 (phono stage) purchasers that an SUT goes between your turntable and the phono stage. Ypsilon has three or four various SUT for sale/use, depending on the output of the cartridge in use, and that does increase the expense, but *only* by about $3k if you get the basic copper SUT . . .
I’ve heard the Ypsilon in a system with which I was quite familiar, and I thought it was superb, but in comparison to other very expensive phono stages, one must keep in mind that it makes only 39db of gain. If you own a high end LOMC cartridge you must account for a SUT or an additional active gain device in the signal path. In fact even with a SUT, the owner of the Ypsilon had a complaint which I proved to him was due to an insufficient amount of total gain, for his Lyra Atlas SL. I convinced him to add an active linestage, and that made him happy (after he spent another $26K for the linestage).
My friend actually is an analog-only audiophile, and has been for decades. He had the FM223 in his system for a few years, and then moved on to other phono stages, including the Ypsilon VPS-100, which he has currently in his system. I don’t know his actual music tastes, but he has extensive experience in listening to various components (if they’re analog).
Yes, I suppose I could’ve purchased the Basis reflex clamp for temporary use on the Rega, while I decide on an exact upgrade, but one thing I like about the SOTA reflex clamp is that it’s not a twist on clamp, but just has a lever that you press, which I suppose would give more consistent clamping that a twist on style of clamp, which I think SOTA also has a version of. As to which clamp it better, I cannot aver, as I’ve only ever heard the SOTA. However, I’m sure the Basis is also an excellent clamp.
I would recommend to anyone with a turntable that doesn’t come with a clamp/weight (which includes all Regas) that they should definitely try a clamp, as the sonic improvement is so marked that even my wife (who doesn’t even have a "good ear") can tell a significant improvement.
I find the impressions of the OP's friend to be quite plausible. In the signal path, every active device increases noise, and every reactance creates phase shift.
Dear @drbond : too noisy? with all respect to your audiophile friends that " noisy " they heard through the FMA just comes from one or more links in their audio systems and that noise through FMA can't be " hidden " .
The FMA audio items are the best " tools " to analise how good is your or any one else audio system.
Analytical?, with all respect too for your friends they just don't know for sure how the live MUSIC sounds seated at near field.
FMA electronics can sound in any way but analytical or noisy, neither with the 123.
True experience knowledge levels is what need your friends, I don't care about any of them I just care about you as the OP .
The SOTA was fine but the Basis is even better, I own both. and both can run with the RP10 too.
So, I communicated with a few of my email audiophile friends, and someone has heard both the Ypsilon VPS-100 phono stage and the FM223 phono linearizer, and his comments are that the FM223 was too analytical and too noisy; he thought the Ypsilon to be very detailed, but with slightly diminished dynamics. . .
In the meantime, I heeded the suggestion by @lewm and got a SOTA relfex clamp, and it does improve the sound of the Rega P8 markedly so, even moreso than the spindle weight that I was using. The clamp really cleans up the sound coming from the vinyl, and it is a very noticeable improvment for anyone with a Rega TT!
To begin with, I rarely if ever listen to "popular music" from the 60s, 70s, and 80s on my audio systems, with the prominent exception of the Beatles and some others. But I do know what you are talking about due to my brief forays into that genre. A lot of that pop music we grew up with was meant to be heard on a car radio, preferably a convertible, preferably with a member of the opposite sex sitting in the passenger seat. I bought one of the re-issues of the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds" on LP. On a good audio system, the tunes bear little resemblance to my aural memory of those tunes dating back to the 60s. It would not surprise me at all if hi-rez digital reproduction of some of that music would exceed vinyl in fidelity. I had a similar experience with a collection of Buddy Holly hits on a Classic Records LP and recently on a 4-LP set of Roy Orbison tunes (but I still love Roy). On the other hand, the best in-studio or on site jazz recordings were made with a very serious eye for fidelity by very knowledgeable engineers with very high end (for the times) equipment, and we are rewarded these days for their work. If you prefer hi-rez for that material, that is your personal choice to which you are entitled. I don't think re-mastering per se can restore what wasn't there in the first place. The very best re-mastering can only preserve what is there, and typically using tape sources that have aged. As regards the nature of the distortions you (and I) perceive, I don't think you are hearing "harmonic distortion" of high frequencies, because harmonics of high frequencies would be out of the range of your and my hearing, and because true harmonic distortion is not unpleasant and even hard to detect. LPs vary all over the place in their quality. In some cases, especially for classical orchestral or big band jazz recordings, there is a tendency for the sound of stringed instruments or of the brass instruments playing en masse to congeal and become shrill and unpleasant. One of the benefits of running so many turntables, using two systems, and having so many cartridges in so many tonearms, is that I can move an LP from one system to another in order to determine whether these distortions are on the LP or due to a shortcoming of one of the components in the reproduction chain at my house. The results can go either way. My own pet theory for what causes that occasionally shrill or congealed sound from massed instruments is a combination of cartridge mistracking and turntable speed instability due to variation in stylus drag. So, I also don't doubt that in a given instance, hi-rez digital could do better. And I use tube, hybrid tube/transistor, and all transistor phono stages.
"There is a lot of harmonic distortion at high frequencies with vinyl playback. This creates a high frequency haze that fills in between the instruments.This is very noticeable with high frequency percussion, cymbals, triangles and such."
This is not my experience generally. My analog setup is a heavily modified by me VPI Classic 4, SME 312S, Soundsmith Sussorro Mk 2 ES, Pass XP-27. Digital is from a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. Preamp is an ARC Ref6 SE. I find that the high frequency separation, finesse and especially transient attack is much better on vinyl. The timing on cymbal crashes is just not quite fast enough or realistic enough with digital in my experience.
I just got done comparing my Philips Classics Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony by RCO with Bernard Haitink on my DAC, transferred from my CD, to a sealed LP copy I just received of the same 1978 performance from Holland. Granted, this is a CD, not hi rez, but there is no comparison, in my setup, between the two. The LP trounces it across the board, except maybe for localization, which is interesting that you point that out. I feel that the superior tracking of my Sussurro works with my highly resolving XP-27 to flesh out the most minute of details that are simply not to be heard on even hi rez digital, again through my DAC.
And this was just the high frequency angle. My LP in the case, as in most cases, is better throughout the frequency range. I can't listen to my digital seriously for more than about 5 minutes.
And yet I hate the inconsistency and hit or miss nature of vinyl. But just one excellent example, on Philips which there are many, I think, keeps me in the vinyl game.
@lewm, I was a bit ragged there and not specific enough. Vintage classical recordings and some vintage jazz recordings are excellent however popular music recording particularly in America in the 60s and early 70s could be quite bad. Many of them were recorded OK but the mastering was done on cheap equipment without much care. After all, the kids are just going to listen on portable Zeniths. I have hundreds of these records and the quality is laughable. Consequently, when remastered on modern equipment the jump in quality can make a dismal record very enjoyable. Even today you run across the occasional popular record that is not balanced correctly and does not sound right at any volume level.
Then the second issue is that high resolution digital versions of older analog recordings frequently sound better and I mean by direct AB comparison of both formats synchronized and played back at the same time with the ability to switch back and forth from the listening position, (the same goes for comparing remasters.) There is a lot of harmonic distortion at high frequencies with vinyl playback. This creates a high frequency haze that fills in between the instruments.This is very noticeable with high frequency percussion, cymbals, triangles and such. Localization of these instruments is more distinct with digital playback as a rule. When you hear a digital recording played back in high res digital the results can be quite amazing. Vinyl people do not want to hear this and they do not have to listen to me. These are repeatable observation I have made on my system which everyone knows is substandard along with my hearing. I called them another word beginning in "S" but the post was removed because I guess it offended someones tender eyes. Well, Excuse Me. I do not care what the format is or whether it is tubes or solid state. I am not married to anything except what I think is the best sound. Everyone else is entitled to there own opinion but not listening to music because it was recorded with transistors and not tubes is cutting off your nose to spite your face according to Henry IV.
"Another issue I am noticing frequently is on more recordings than not the space in between instruments and voices is quieter. Some would say "blacker" but, they really mean quieter. With analog playback there is more ...fuzziness around the edges of many recordings. On the other hand many of the older records were mastered on substandard systems resulting in amplitude and sound stage errors when played back on a good system. When that happens it is easy for the remasters to shine."
Are you here comparing old vinyl to new vinyl (re-issues) or hi-rez digital to vinyl, or what? The idea that "many of the older records were mastered on substandard systems" that result in "amplitude and sound stage errors" strikes me as not supported by any data. Just your aural impressions.
I ended up having to ship my Rega P8 to Mt Kisco, NY for evaluation, to David and Alma at Accent on Music. They are very kind and helpful people. They were going to evaluate my TT regardless of expectations. Fortunately for them, my Rega cartridge had failed in one channel, and I needed a new cartridge. (Mind you, this cartridge probably had less than 100 hours on it.) I purchased a $2,000 Linn Krystal cartridge from them, largely since they recommended it, and paid them for their labor as well, so I hope that they made out well .. . which brings me to this thread, as I have probably put 200 hours on the Linn cartridge since I got it back in September, and so my interest in analog is piqued, and I am consequently looking to upgrade even more!
...and it looks like Accent on Music carries Orotofon, so I think I'll be calling them to purchase the MC Verismo when the time comes.
@rauliruegas, Last night I purchased a newly remastered for digital copy of The Band's Cahoots in 24/96. It is easily the best version of that album I have ever heard. The sound stage definition is much better than my original vinyl copy. The reason it sounds so much better is probably not the format but the mastering. Another issue I am noticing frequently is on more recordings than not the space in between instruments and voices is quieter. Some would say "blacker" but, they really mean quieter. With analog playback there is more ...fuzziness around the edges of many recordings. On the other hand many of the older records were mastered on substandard systems resulting in amplitude and sound stage errors when played back on a good system. When that happens it is easy for the remasters to shine.
Guys, everyone has a valid point here. No, the Strain gauge does not reverse the RIAA curve as accurately as a good phono stage. But, it is capable of very good reproduction. In particular it's transient response is excellent so it's reproduction of percussion is first class. The sound it produces is more sharply etched, not as warm as some would like. If it has a major failing it is tracking ability. It can not hold on to the groove at higher velocities. It may miss track on highly modulated passages. It's distortion levels are also a bit higher than the best moving coil cartridges.
Having gone through a lot of reviews lately I have noticed that Lyra and Ortofon cartridges consistently perform at the top in terms of distortion levels and tracking ability. I have always liked the Lyra Atlas and the SL version would work super with a transimpedance phono stage. For myself I have narrowed it down to three cartridges, the Atlas SL, the MSL Signature Platinum and the Ortofon Versimo.
@drbond, If you fain interest in a $10,000 piece they will jump to attention. I am with you on VPI. Not my cup of tea.
@cleeds : You are argumentative because more than enhance our knowledge levels you want to " win ".
Who asked by digital/computer alternative? just argumentative.
In the other side I already listen the SG cartridge at least 3 times in 3 different systems and at least in two room/systems where you can only dream its very high quality performance levels.
Now, do you want to " win " ? I can help you: agree with you, you are rigth. Satisfied? Useless and futile to follow about.
Correct. That’s why you’re mistaken when you claim "it’s a design for other kind of LP recordings but not for the ones that comes with the RIAA curve." In fact, the strain gauge system is specifically designed for proper playback of RIAA EQ’d LPs. To claim otherwise, either you don’t know what you’re talking about or you’re just being argumentative.
... it’s not the cartridge whom needs to follow the inverse RIAA eq. but the phono stage and the SG phono stage did not ...
Again, you are simply wrong. Using a phono preamp with an RIAA circuit is of course one way to play back an LP. Another - although this is not my preference - is to digitally record the cartridge output, and then apply RIAA correction digitally on a computer. A third way is with a strain gauge cartridge, which inherently applies at least a close approximation of the RIAA curve. Peter Ledermann says his strain gauge is down about 1 dB at 20hZ, which some think is better than the boost many magnetic cartridges provide.
And Raul, because you are so insistent on "facts," I suggest you actually make it a point to hear strain gauge phono playback in a proper system. While it may not be to my taste, the strain gauge cartridges can produce outstanding sound.
+1 for Raul reminding you guys that the cartridge per se does not have the job of conforming or not conforming to RIAA; it's obviously the combined effort of the recording engineer who applies the RIAA correction to the signal on the LP and then of the phono stage, which has to produce a flat frequency response by applying "reverse" RIAA.
If you read Peter Ledermann's statement and sentiments regarding RIAA and his strain gauge design, you will see that he recognizes there will be some lack of accuracy in exact conformation to RIAA, because he tells us that he did not put any corrective filtering into his downstream electronics, as apparently was done for some of the earlier strain gauge designs. That was his philosophical choice, because he feels that the filters do more harm than good. Anyone who is interested in the SG cartridge should listen first and then decide whether he or she likes the end result. In my opinion, there is no right or wrong here.
I get that the strain gauge type makes signal voltage in response to displacement of the stylus, rather than to velocity of the stylus. The RIAA pre-emphasis involves attenuating the bass response up to about 500Hz, with a 6db/octave slope. Then the frequency response is flat from 500 to about 2kHz. Then there is attenuation of the signal voltage from 2kHz and up with the same slope. All of our LPs have this deliberate RIAA frequency imbalance built into them. Putting these two bits of information together, I guess that SG cartridges must inherently make most signal voltage at low frequencies, the opposite of what happens with MM, MI, and MC cartridges, and that voltage then goes down as frequency goes up from bass to treble, in an approximate 6db/octave slope. In other words, the SG cartridges inherently correct for RIAA but apparently with some error with respect to the formal RIAA curve. One region where there would be error is that plateau between 500Hz and 2kHz; I expect the SG cartridge does not respect that flat area of the RIAA curve. Its response would just sail through that region rising at 6db/octave. So if one heard a "problem", I would not be surprised if it is in the midrange. But also, if the slope of the response of an SG cartridge from low bass to extreme treble deviates from 6db/octave, that too could result in an apparent RIAA error. Raul and PL had a vigorous discussion of these issues, I think to be found on the famous MM cartridge thread started by Raul. I agree with whoever said that one ought to judge the results for onesself. It would be interesting to commpare the SS version of SG with one of the older designs that did incorporate RIAA correction filters in the downstream black box.
Dear @cleeds : " the system is specifically designed for LP playback, whether it is to your taste or not..."
This is not about taste is about facts. When was discussed here in Agon that the strain gauge cartridge did not mimi the inverse RIAA eq and the same PL posted that deviation in a limited frequency RIAA range when the RIAA is from 20hz to 20khz. Well in the SS site he posted the Italian magasine review where any one seen the overall 6db deviation from the RIAA, after a few days of that discussion that link in the site just disappeared.
That today was in some way fixed through additional equalization that does not means was created for LPs " due tat mimic naturally the RIAA eq ". This is all about.
Btw, it’s not the cartridge whom needs to follow the inverse RIAA eq. but the phono stage and the SG phono stage did not. He said it does not needs the RIAA eq. proccess and that was and is false.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I’ve ruled out VPI, and I’ve also ruled out that audio shop, as I called them to evaluate the problem with my Rega P8 this past summer, and they told me that they weren’t interested. (They're 2 hours away from me anyway.)
I have never found the Technics to be lean sounding. I would say Accurate sounding, Not colored, very neutral. The Technics does not homogenize the sound as many tables do. many people like that kind of sound.
I hardly dare to say it here, but the one that I’m looking for is the Verdier Platine. I know it’s an oldie but the ones who have one generally never sell it. But that’s me. Here un France it is 7400€ euros.
@cleeds, I heard the exact same system except the Strain gauge was mounted in a Schroder Reference arm. The Hyperion was in the VPI arm. Those monitors are Peter's design. Except for the bottom 2-3 octaves the system sounded remarkable good considering the room it was in. I played a very difficult string quartet and it sailed through it almost perfectly. There was just a hint of sharpness behind the first violin. Peter was smart to keep the listening chair away from any walls and there was so much...clutter which acted as diffusers. I did listen to one song with the Hyperion for context. There is additional EQ in the preamp that corrects the strain gauge so that it follows the RIAA curve. But, amplitude errors are relatively insignificant and can always be corrected. Just putting a system in a different room is going to cause much more severe amplitude changes.The only thing I might worry about is it's tracking ability. Even Peter admits it has a hard time with high velocities which has been the real achilles heal of strain gauges. I got rid of the Win cartridge after just a few weeks as it's tracking was awful. I did not hear any mistracking during the Soundsmith audition. Peter has certainly sharpened it's game. I think there might be an issue damping a strain gauge correctly but, what do I know. I think Raul is a bit harsh on it for whatever reason.
@senza, if you are going to go for a less expensive Kuzma the Ref 2 is the way to go. If I were to get one it would be the M. The 4 Point is definitely up there with the best arms.
@drbond, The Oracle and the SME 20/3 are extremely similar turntables. The Oracle is just better looking. The Transrotor arm is a perfect match for it aesthetically. The Stabi R is not suspended so there is going to be more background noise. The Stabi Ref 2 is the one to go for. The R is for people that have to have a bazillion arms hooked up. The 20/3 is definitely a better turntable than the R. If you are going to use a 4 Point arm you will be limited to the 4 Point 9 on the suspended turntables. The 4 point 11 is too heavy and will upset their suspensions. It is not big loss because many of us, me included think the 9 is the best of the lot. There is no such thing as a flat record. Big massive arms have a harder time following the irregularities which causes added distortion in the upper ranges. Distortion in cartridges is monumental above 10 kHz many cartridges hit 15%!! The best do 5-6% We do not hear it as distinctly because our ability to discern very high frequencies is limited.
From an industrial artwork perspective the Oracle/Transrotor combination would be killer. Your friends will be speechless. The SME is "just another turntable." Is it a safer bet than the Oracle? I'm not sure. The Delphi has been around for a very long time and has been consistently improved. I owned an early one back in 1980 and they had not got the hang of it yet but modern reviews indicate that they have. It has a damped suspension just like the SME. It has a screw on reflex clamp just like the SME. It has an AC synchronous motor electronically controlled just like the SME. It is isolated on the main chassis just like the SME. One thing it does have that the SME does not is the ability to adjust it's suspension with different springs for heavier arms to maintain the 2 Hz resonance frequency. This is not a deal breaker for the SME by any means.
There are several excellent arms that have not been mentioned. They are the TriPlanar, The Schroder CB and the Reed 2G. Stay away from unipivot arms like the Graham, VPI and the Moerch. The Basis arms are OK as they are not really unipivots. Rotation is controlled by a secondary bearing. In the most expensive Graham arm rotation is controlled by opposing magnets.
@sokogear, Lew is not just frugal. He is an outright scrooge:)
Kuzma Stabi R looks good and you can install several arms. That’s good option, but, as time often says the truth, it seems that for many Kuzma lovers and users, that, in their line of TTs, the Reference would be «Belle inconnue », more musical than hifish. Don’t know myself but hard that a couple of times in the last months.
I don't see many recent reviews about the Oracle Audio Delphi (newest version) MkVI. Because of the brand reputation of SME, I'm leaning in that direction. All things being equal (cartridge, tonearm), do you know how the Oracle Delphi Mk VI would differ sonically from the SME 20/3?
I'll have to read about the Transrotor tonearm, but from what I superficially know about tonearms (reading easily available reviews), I might lean towards a Graham Phantom III tonearm or a Kuzma 4Point tonearm. This decision would make more complex choices; however, the SME 20/3 is an easy decision and set up with the series V tonearm.
From what I read about tonearms, the Kuzma 4Point was very highly reviewed, and if I were to get a Kuzma tonearm, I suppose I should consider the Kuzma Stabi R turntable.
Any idea how the Kuzma Stabi R with Kuzma 4Point would compare to the SME 20/3 with series V tonearm?
Thanks.
@sokogearthe Reflex clamp i have is essentially a collet that slides over smooth spindle and a knurled knob on top of clamp compresses the collet. i think the latest version has a cam lever that compresses the collet. Best to you !
i am a Robot seeking to emulate an edgewound Lew at least as cartridge acquisition goes…
@tomic601- do you have any info on the SOTA reflex clamp and how it would attach to a non threaded spindle like the Rega P8 has? I am always looking at ways to improve the sound.
I don't think Lew @lewm is frugal with his cartridge collection :-)...
Dear @dover @drbond : In that SME review comparison exiast a very important difference that's that the 15A comes with the inferior 309 tonearm but my advise to the OP is to buy the 15 with the V tonearm.
The SME 20/3 has a much more substantial subchassis with a much lower resonant frequency and heavier platter than the 15. And of course the SME 20/3 is a significant improvement over the older 20/2.
It is a much better turntable regardless of arm, deeper bass and more gravitas in its overall presentation.
Dear @cleeds : I think you are wrong or have a misunderstood.
No, I've actually heard the system. While the strain gauge is not a perfect complement to the RIAA curve, it's close. If you think your conventional phono cartridge delivers perfectly flat results you've probably never measured it.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a big fan of the strain gauge concept. But I'd never insist "... it's a design for other kind of LP recordings but not for the ones that comes with the RIAA curve." That's simply wrong - the system is specifically designed for LP playback, whether it is to your taste or not.
@cleedswhen you say regarding the SM strain gauge "I’ve heard the Soundsmith system and while it may not be to my taste" what did you not like about it?
I heard the SM strain gauge at Soundsmith - using a VPI HRX table and VPI arm. I don't recall the speakers Peter was using, but they were small-ish monitors. I have Infinity IRS Betas and my taste runs to a much bigger, fuller sound. Still, the strain gauge system is very, very impressive.
As you both comment, yes, expensive systems, if not properly pieced, could sound worse than a well-designed system. I think this is where this forum helps many people out, such as myself, who have little knowledge about and little access to audiophile equipment. I have learned a great deal by reading on this forum, and posting queries myself. Without this forum, and its contributors, such as @everyone commenting here, I would certainly not have a very good idea of how to piece a system together.
Dear @cleeds : I think you are wrong or have a misunderstood.
This is what PL posted in a thread here years ago:
"" in my Schroder Reference SG, the new SG design it was +/- 1dB from 50 Hz to 12K ...""
in that limited frequency range the cartridge has 2db of frequency deviation but
it's not true that the cartridge " mimic the RIAA curve " naturally " ", this is totally false.
In the thread where PL posted and in the SS site in those times he published the cartridge curve frequency response against the true RIAA by an Italian magasine where any one seen that the swing of the cartridge vs the RIAA 20hz to 20khz was around 6+dbs ! ! !
The spindle is purposely not threaded so not sure how a lightweight clamp would attach or work.
Once the doc address his vibration issues, the need for the weight should go away - I doubt your vibrations are from the platter it turns as smooth silk - more likely from the plinth, which would be greatly eliminated with suspension/vibration control.
Yes, I realize that placing a spindle weight on the LP goes against Rega’s philosophy, but it sounds much cleaner that way; perhaps Rega needs to adjust their philosophy slightly?
I did check the timing to ensure that the weight didn’t interfere with the LP speed, and it doesn’t (it’s not a real heavy weight), but it does a great deal to help diminish the platter vibrations on my P8. If you haven’t tried it, you should, and let me know what you think!
@alexberger - very true. As I mentioned the $400k system beat ones costing over $1M, and it had only $20K with of cartridge/phono stage.
Plus the majority of ones who throw "loot" at their system I bet are not really listening and comparing and are usually trying to impress people with how much they've spent. Probably not most Agoners, but many customers of high end audio stores.
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