@terry9 , the only real air bearing turntable out there is the big Kuzma. All the others use an air thrust system. You can achieve pretty much the same result with opposing magnets at much less expense. Examples are the Clearaudio tables and some Sotas. I personally do not like turntables with outboard motors and tonearms. Particularly the tonearm should be solidly mounted to the same fixture as the platter.
@rauliruegas , Hey Raul, what do you think of the STST Motus II turntable? I'm pretty sure I know what chakster would say. You are not so predictable;)
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@terry9 , air bearings are anything but silent. The air has to escape and can cause high frequency resonance. Plain bearings in oil done right are extremely quiet. The biggest issue is the thrust bearing which opposing magnets or a properly machined ball do just fine.
@rauliruegas , I have no idea why we argue so much. We both dislike unipivots and 12 inch arms all for the right reasons. Did you comment about the STST Motus 2 turntable yet. I am fascinated by it, a low torque DD turntable with a suspension that is user adjustable for various weight arms. The tonearm board is also clever. You drill the right size hole then you can rotate it to achieve a perfect spindle to pivot distance or change overhang. It uses three leaf springs. I'm not sure this is a good idea as the lateral resonance point is going to be higher. If it gets into the tonearm resonance area you know what might happen.
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@terry9 , The fields a magnetic thrust bearing generates are a constant, not oscillating as a motor would do. I wondered if there might be a steady attraction or repulsion so I measured tracking force across the entire record including right at the spindle. It was perfectly constant. The magnets are far enough away that they do not affect the cartridge. As Raul mentions the heavier the platter the higher the resonance frequency and there is no practical way to dampen an air thrust bearing. All you can do is adjust the frequency it resonates at. Magnetic thrust bearings have the same problem but you do not have to worry about air currents and the noise they might make. I have a Sota Cosmos and as far as I can tell it acts just like a solid thrust bearing with but with no noise. I am pretty sure rumble levels are lower but records have a certain amount of built in rumble from very little to horrendous.
@rauliruegas , Any body in movement that is sprung has a resonance frequency. I think terry9 fails to realize that an air bearing and drive of any nature provide more than enough energy to get things going if the table is not well designed. I do not like air bearings at all including those used in tonearms. The complexity is not necessary and air currents can cause problems if they are aimed in the wrong direction.
I'm not sure what you mean about MF. He is in love with whatever costs the most. It certainly won't be the Motus II. It is too cheap. Peter Ledermann thinks it's the cats meow. It draws my attention because it is the first DD table I know of with a suspension.
@alexberger , the Lenco L78 is a museum piece. In this day and age it is unlistenable.
@millercarbon , having owned a Rosewood Signature Platinum I can attest to the fact that Koetsus are possibly the worst tracking expensive cartridges made. Fortunately. you have found a Strain Gauge which might be the best tracking cartridge ever made. I listened to one for several hours last weekend, an 810 I believe.
@safebelayer , I am not entirely sure but Basis may be slipping after AJ's passing. They are starting to make things of questionable benefit to jack the price. Things that I know AJ would not do. I live right around the corner from Basis and spoke with AJ on several occasions. They still make a great turntable but my favorite was the Debut Vacuum.
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@terry9 , No problem. The point of it all is that it gets us thinking. Graham Engineering is right down the road. TechDas tables are very quiet even from a foot away but, opposing magnets are much quieter, no compressor.
@alexberger , Yes, maybe 60 years ago.
Platters resonating is hardly ever a problem in this day and age. Even if a platter did ring just throw the right mat on it and it will stop entirely. There are other issues significantly more important. Bearing noise, isolation from external vibration and speed stability are all more important. Platters have become much larger than they need to be because they have become a male phallic symbol. They have become a design element more than one of explicit performance gains.
@rsf507 , I listened to the Strain Gauge on a smallish monitor system of very high quality but there was no bass certainly below 40 Hz probably more like 60 Hz. I have no reason to believe it would make anything but excellent bass below 60 Hz. It had absolutely no problem picking up people walking. What you could not hear you could see with it's display lights. The system has a very different presentation than my own system so I have to temper my comments. The sound of that system was very forward, instruments and voices tend to be in the plane of the speakers. My system throws everything behind the speakers. I am at a loss to say what the strain gauge does with the 3rd dimension. I listened to the Hyperion for a short period. It is relaxed and smooth. The Strain Gauge is an attack cartridge. Transients are sharp and delineated. Strings are pluckier, snare strikes sharper. People have said it is sort of like switching to electrostatic speakers and I can hear where this comes from. It Is very clear and detailed. I did not hear it miss track at all. From my perspective it should work well with my system and represents quite a value if you add in the phono stage and I would get the 610 signature unit. As always I won't be entirely sure until I get one, such is the risk in this hobby. There are systems that will not do well with the Strain Gauge. Those that have a system that is already bright and leans toward the harsh side should proceed with caution. Those that feel they are lacking detail and dynamics will certainly benefit.
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@billwojo , that would be a nice idea but they are all being cancelled. I tried to go to the NYC show but had to switch to David Byrne's American Utopia. It got canceled at the front door. We had a very nice dinner at Wolfgang's.
@drbond, terry nine waxes poetic about air bearing turntables but many thing the complexity far outweighs the benefits. The noise on the record far exceeds what any half decent turntable produces and an with modern machining bearing tolerances can be very close to perfect. With modern materials mechanical bearings can be virtually dead silent.
The SME pays careful attention to their suspension. They are beautifully machined and finished. They will last a lifetime. There are very few tables that perform at their level.
@terry9 turntable bearing do not generate any high frequency noise. They spin too slowly. If anything is going to produce high frequency noise it would be air rushing around all over the place.
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@terry9 , I do not think Raul is talking about the platter itself ringing. He is talking about the suspension resonance point, the platter resonating on the air just like an automobile suspension without shocks (dampers). The heavier the plater the higher the frequency the platter will bounce at. This is unusual as normally it is the other way around but as the plater gets heavier the spring rate increases, the air gets stiffer becoming a solid wall (the thrust bearing). Platters have become a male phallic symbol. There is no reason for a platter to be heavier than about 10 lb. Heavier than 20 lb is totally unnecessary with a normal bearing. Air bearing tables just need to get the resonance frequency out of the audio range or higher than the frequency response of the best cartridges, about 70 kHz. What weight that takes I have no idea.
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@lewm , I am pretty sure as I explained above air bearing tables are different. Air is very compressible. As the weight on the air cushion increases it stiffens increasing the resonance frequency faster than the added mass lowers it. As for the Motus, the low torque motor won't bother it at all. I can imagine a little shake on start up but that would be about it. The suspension is made up of three rather beefy looking leaf springs. Have a look at a picture. Will it effect speed stability at all? A wow and flutter spec is not mentioned. It is servo controlled but exactly how is not mentioned. The frequency of the suspension is 2-3 Hz.
If you haven't noticed already I am a silly guy. But, if you like Lencos go out and get yourself one:)
@drbond , I think Raul may be right on that. The Verisimo is more compliant and tracks better. It is using the same diamond cantilever as the Anna Diamond and I am drawn to the naked cartridge body design.
@terry9 , the question is is an air bearing turntable worth the complexity over a spindle and opposing magnets. Is the bearing going to be noticeably quieter. If you factor in the compressor that answer is definitely not but, just thinking about the bearings proper the answer is also no. The amount of noise on the record far exceeds what even a mediocre belt drive makes. I admire you for making your own table. That is very cool. I am reduced to making just the plinth. I did think once about making a turntable around a Clearaudio magnetic bearing. That fell by the wayside when Sota announced it's magnetic bearing. If I had the money to by any turntable I would get a Dohmann Helix.
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@drbond , The calculator is a rough guide as cartridge compliance can vary even with the best manufacturers. You tune the tonearm and cartridge with a test record by adding mass to the head shell. Starting out with a tonearm on the light side is always the best thing to do then you add mass till you get the lateral resonance down between 8 and 10 Hz. There are many types of head shell weights available. Soundsmith makes a very nice set of graded cartridge screws that work great with SME arms.
@edgewear , The Anna Diamond's achilles heal is that it is very low compliance which means you have to use a more massive arm and tolerate accelerated record wear. The vinyl has to do more work to move the stylus. But, it's motor is excellent. Very few cartridges can attain the low distortion levels of the Anna Diamond. The Verismo is the culmination of all this research. It is a more compliant cartridge with an ultra low resonance body and the low distortion levels of the Anna. The price is also a bit more realistic. To my mind only Lyra and MSL make cartridges as sophisticated.
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@edgewear , The Mutech is a very interesting cartridge and it looks like a reasonable value but, I would tend to lean towards a My Sonic cartridge like the Ultra Eminent EX or the Signature Platinum. All three are suitable for a transimpedance phono stage. For those who are not aware, the Channel D Line C has been upgraded to the 3.0 series in both performance and price. A loaded one is around $7000. It can include a second MC input either voltage or transimpedance and a MM input for a total of three inputs. It also can include a calibrated RIAA circuit (ultra high precision) and an RIAA bypass for computer corrected RIAA. It has an 16 Hz subsonic filter, a stereo/mono switch and a polarity inversion switch. With a cartridge like the Ultra Eminent EX it has 80 dB of gain!
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@drbond , There is another thread on the new Transrotor tonearm. It is a beautiful arm and will fit just about any turntable. I think putting it on an Oracle Delphi would make a stunning high performance combination every bit as good as a 20/2 but with looks. Check it out!
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@alexberger 10+
@cleeds , I heard the exact same system except the Strain gauge was mounted in a Schroder Reference arm. The Hyperion was in the VPI arm. Those monitors are Peter's design. Except for the bottom 2-3 octaves the system sounded remarkable good considering the room it was in. I played a very difficult string quartet and it sailed through it almost perfectly. There was just a hint of sharpness behind the first violin. Peter was smart to keep the listening chair away from any walls and there was so much...clutter which acted as diffusers. I did listen to one song with the Hyperion for context. There is additional EQ in the preamp that corrects the strain gauge so that it follows the RIAA curve. But, amplitude errors are relatively insignificant and can always be corrected. Just putting a system in a different room is going to cause much more severe amplitude changes.The only thing I might worry about is it's tracking ability. Even Peter admits it has a hard time with high velocities which has been the real achilles heal of strain gauges. I got rid of the Win cartridge after just a few weeks as it's tracking was awful. I did not hear any mistracking during the Soundsmith audition. Peter has certainly sharpened it's game. I think there might be an issue damping a strain gauge correctly but, what do I know. I think Raul is a bit harsh on it for whatever reason.
@senza , if you are going to go for a less expensive Kuzma the Ref 2 is the way to go. If I were to get one it would be the M. The 4 Point is definitely up there with the best arms.
@drbond , The Oracle and the SME 20/3 are extremely similar turntables. The Oracle is just better looking. The Transrotor arm is a perfect match for it aesthetically. The Stabi R is not suspended so there is going to be more background noise. The Stabi Ref 2 is the one to go for. The R is for people that have to have a bazillion arms hooked up. The 20/3 is definitely a better turntable than the R. If you are going to use a 4 Point arm you will be limited to the 4 Point 9 on the suspended turntables. The 4 point 11 is too heavy and will upset their suspensions. It is not big loss because many of us, me included think the 9 is the best of the lot. There is no such thing as a flat record. Big massive arms have a harder time following the irregularities which causes added distortion in the upper ranges. Distortion in cartridges is monumental above 10 kHz many cartridges hit 15%!! The best do 5-6% We do not hear it as distinctly because our ability to discern very high frequencies is limited.
From an industrial artwork perspective the Oracle/Transrotor combination would be killer. Your friends will be speechless. The SME is "just another turntable." Is it a safer bet than the Oracle? I'm not sure. The Delphi has been around for a very long time and has been consistently improved. I owned an early one back in 1980 and they had not got the hang of it yet but modern reviews indicate that they have. It has a damped suspension just like the SME. It has a screw on reflex clamp just like the SME. It has an AC synchronous motor electronically controlled just like the SME. It is isolated on the main chassis just like the SME. One thing it does have that the SME does not is the ability to adjust it's suspension with different springs for heavier arms to maintain the 2 Hz resonance frequency. This is not a deal breaker for the SME by any means.
There are several excellent arms that have not been mentioned. They are the TriPlanar, The Schroder CB and the Reed 2G. Stay away from unipivot arms like the Graham, VPI and the Moerch. The Basis arms are OK as they are not really unipivots. Rotation is controlled by a secondary bearing. In the most expensive Graham arm rotation is controlled by opposing magnets.
@sokogear , Lew is not just frugal. He is an outright scrooge:)
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Guys, everyone has a valid point here. No, the Strain gauge does not reverse the RIAA curve as accurately as a good phono stage. But, it is capable of very good reproduction. In particular it's transient response is excellent so it's reproduction of percussion is first class. The sound it produces is more sharply etched, not as warm as some would like. If it has a major failing it is tracking ability. It can not hold on to the groove at higher velocities. It may miss track on highly modulated passages. It's distortion levels are also a bit higher than the best moving coil cartridges.
Having gone through a lot of reviews lately I have noticed that Lyra and Ortofon cartridges consistently perform at the top in terms of distortion levels and tracking ability. I have always liked the Lyra Atlas and the SL version would work super with a transimpedance phono stage. For myself I have narrowed it down to three cartridges, the Atlas SL, the MSL Signature Platinum and the Ortofon Versimo.
@drbond , If you fain interest in a $10,000 piece they will jump to attention. I am with you on VPI. Not my cup of tea.
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@rauliruegas, Last night I purchased a newly remastered for digital copy of The Band's Cahoots in 24/96. It is easily the best version of that album I have ever heard. The sound stage definition is much better than my original vinyl copy. The reason it sounds so much better is probably not the format but the mastering. Another issue I am noticing frequently is on more recordings than not the space in between instruments and voices is quieter. Some would say "blacker" but, they really mean quieter. With analog playback there is more ...fuzziness around the edges of many recordings. On the other hand many of the older records were mastered on substandard systems resulting in amplitude and sound stage errors when played back on a good system. When that happens it is easy for the remasters to shine.
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@lewm , I was a bit ragged there and not specific enough. Vintage classical recordings and some vintage jazz recordings are excellent however popular music recording particularly in America in the 60s and early 70s could be quite bad. Many of them were recorded OK but the mastering was done on cheap equipment without much care. After all, the kids are just going to listen on portable Zeniths. I have hundreds of these records and the quality is laughable. Consequently, when remastered on modern equipment the jump in quality can make a dismal record very enjoyable. Even today you run across the occasional popular record that is not balanced correctly and does not sound right at any volume level.
Then the second issue is that high resolution digital versions of older analog recordings frequently sound better and I mean by direct AB comparison of both formats synchronized and played back at the same time with the ability to switch back and forth from the listening position, (the same goes for comparing remasters.) There is a lot of harmonic distortion at high frequencies with vinyl playback. This creates a high frequency haze that fills in between the instruments.This is very noticeable with high frequency percussion, cymbals, triangles and such. Localization of these instruments is more distinct with digital playback as a rule. When you hear a digital recording played back in high res digital the results can be quite amazing. Vinyl people do not want to hear this and they do not have to listen to me. These are repeatable observation I have made on my system which everyone knows is substandard along with my hearing. I called them another word beginning in "S" but the post was removed because I guess it offended someones tender eyes. Well, Excuse Me. I do not care what the format is or whether it is tubes or solid state. I am not married to anything except what I think is the best sound. Everyone else is entitled to there own opinion but not listening to music because it was recorded with transistors and not tubes is cutting off your nose to spite your face according to Henry IV.
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@ivanj , I have 645-8s. They were a custom job as I could not tolerate the width of the standard 845. I am definitely in agreement with most of what you are saying. Turntable isolation is critical. However, wall shelves can be a detriment under certain circumstances. It is not like walls do not vibrate. They can vibrate more than an appropriate built in on a concrete floor.
Yes, phono cartridges are inherently balanced devices. But, I would never put a long cable on a tonearm. I would put it on the Phonostage. Many now have balanced outputs.
Absent the ability to put the turntable in another room there are other ways to lower sound pressure levels around the turntable and cartridge. Using a suspended turntable under a dust cover is one solution. Mark Dohmann told me that he is working on such a solution for the Helix.
I have listened to Peter's Strain Gauge on his system and I was duly impressed. The only stick in the mud is it's tracking ability. I never heard it misstrack but the measured data is not complimentary. If you do not tend to play difficult records it is not a problem you would notice.
Merry Christmas to all,
Mike
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@lewm I'm afraid not. My favorite chinese restaurant is 30 miles south of here in Taxacusetts. But don't fret tonight we are having Duck Confit and tomorrow is prime roast beef that I aged for 45 days. REALLY, right in my own fridge. Go to umaidry.com. These are very special vacuum bags that control the humidity within the bag and they work GREAT! I am on my third piece of meat now. The only down side is you have to have a vacuum packer with at least a 10" seal bar. The biggest bag which is for brisket requires 16 inches however you can kitty corner the bags and probably get away with a 10" bar which is pretty common.
@drbond , The 4 point 9 may be the best value in a high performance arm out there. As for the Kuzma tables it depends on which one you are talking about. The Ref 2 and M are right up there with the SMEs. I really like the M but it is pricey. The Sota Cosmos is a better value and it has some advantages over the M, a magnetic thrust bearing and vacuum clamping to name two. It's overall build quality is not as good as the M but it has it where it counts and it is almost 1/2 the price.
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@dover , It will fit but that does not mean it will work well. You would have to stiffen the suspension. I suppose you could fit more rubber bands. The 4 Point 9 will go right on without having to mess around. Some people think it is the best 4Point
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@drbond , The best table you can buy, money no option is the Dohmann Helix. Put a Schroder LT arm on it and you would be state of the art if the Helix had vcuum clamping. Down from that would be the Basis Inspiration vacuum followed by the Sota Cosmos Vacuum. If you like the Dohmann which has the most effective suspension made I would wait until Mark adds vacuum clamping to it. He has said repeatedly that he is. The Basis and Sota both have effective suspensions and vacuum clamping. The Techdas AF 1 and 3 also have effective isolation and vacuum clamping but they are stupid expensive and IMHO perform no better than the Basis. I personally will not buy a turntable that does not have both features
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@drbond , I have Sound Labs Speakers. If you are talking about the SME 30/2 or 30/12 it is a no brainer. I would take the SME 12A over any Technics Table. It is isolated and has a much better arm than any Technics ever made. I do not think genre means anything when it comes to tables and arms. Cartridges are another issue. I would consider a transimpedance phono stage like the Sutherland Loco or Channel D Lino C and a really low impedance moving coil like the My Sonic Lab Ultra Eminent EX
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