Turntable noobie...what advice do you have?

@oldaudiophile 

 

Good advice. You can push the dust and crud around, but bing able to really clean an album really makes a big difference. I now own a Nessie… wonderfully small and quiet.

Here is a very worthwhile solution while you are gathering ideas to get you on your way with confidence.

A US based Used Record Store that supplies a LP having been Ultrasonic Tank cleaned using a machine from the Company KLAUDIO. I have discovered the USM uses side mounted transducers on either side of the LP, and this method of placing the critical parts will have a much improved produced cavitation over a single transducer mounted in the base, as with the most typical tanks found.

I did not discover the Khz for the transducers being used on this machine, but it does state 200 Watts.

I found this outlet and with cleaned vinyl on offer after a short search, I am sure there are others offering a similar service.

It does look like a Anti Static Sleeve, a discipline to keep the fingers of the LP’s surface and a Brush will get you on your way.

If at a certain time of year, the replay starts sounding quite inferior, there may be a static charge present on the LP, there are quite a few ideas on how to decrease the impact of this.

 

 

For the most part, I buy vintage analog records, and stay clear of new pressings. I look for very good plus - near mint. New albums are almost always produced digitally, and you miss that pure analog sonic experience. If you do purchase new, remember to always clean the new record as well. Regardless as to some "audiophile" opinions, new records, as well as old records, need cleaning. Sometimes more than a 50 year old album. The plants where records are pressed can leave oils, factory dust and vinyl debris in the grooves. 

I have chose not to continue with a DIY USM I have produced.

I use a modern approach for a manual cleaning method, the practice is quite satisfying, even with the elbow grease required, I have yet to replay a cleaned LP where I though a more clean item could be produced. I am sure on my long term owned LP's I have now been quite successful with purifying the LP's from all the IPA and Detergent residuals from the earlier in life adopted cleaning methods.

I am not against using a USM, but a Single 40Khz Transducer positioned in the base, or one of the side walls of the Machine does not leave me at ease about the effectiveness of the produced cavitation and the quality of the cleaning cycle, hence my own one is buried in a cupboard. 

KLAUDIO is not a cheap machine, the design appears to have incorporated Two Transducers on Two Side Walls, so each side of the LP is exposed to a very consistent cavitation produced from Two Transducers, this method seems in my mind optimised, hence my thinking that the OP may benefit wholesomely if informed of this as a option to purchase.

 

@tomic601 , Records always maintain a slight static charge which attracts dust. New records will always have some dust on them. Just pull them out of the sleeve and within seconds some dust will collect. This incidental dust is easy to sweep away as it lies on the surface. What is important from a sonic perspective is contamination in the groove that can not be swept away, it has to be dissolved. You will not see this on your filter. What you see on your filter is undissolvable dust. Sources of contamination in the groove are things like cigarette smoke (tar) and cooking fumes (oil). A record that is contamination will leave a residue on the stylus. I have played thousands of new records and have never seen one leave a residue on the stylus. Because I use a sweep arm dust is kept away from the stylus.

In Short, I disagree in the extreme that new records are contaminated and need to be cleaned. Just sweeping the incidental dust out of the way will do.

I just ordered a Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro to clean a bunch of old 78s I was given. I will do a study on new records. I can record records on the computer and can compare before and after cleaning files to see if there is any improvement in background noise after cleaning new records. I will report on the results probably later in the Summer.  

@mijostyn Stay in the dark ages. Ultrasonic + Enzyme on my Nitty + Sweep arm + Zerostat is just better…. 

 

For those moving out of pre renaissance age cleaning practices, see Bill Hart excellent blog The Vinyl Press which published @antin superb guide to US cleaning…

 

@tomic601, Dark ages? Perhaps you mean Middle Ages. I have an album of middle age English folk songs. Most people can't listen to it for more than 15 minutes or so but I do find it entertaining as an historical point of reference.

You can continue to perpetrate this mythology of behalf of the record cleaning industry. There are certainly people who take crappy care of their records which will need a good cleaning if you are unfortunate enough to buy one. Perhaps I live in an alternative universe where styluses just do not collect the detritus from groves. I get to save a lot of money to spend on new records!

An enthusiastic 2nd on the recommendation of @tomic601 and others for the reading (several times) of the encyclopedic tome on record cleaning found on Bill Hart's website. Indispensable!

As for dealing with the static charge found on many used record shop-"cleaned" LP's (and even some new/sealed LP's):

I bought the original (white) Zerostat when it was first introduced, and for years suffered with it's 'fiddly-ness" (you have to squeeze the trigger veerrry slowly). Then the Nakaoka Kilavolt No. 103 was introduced. Hallelujah! At least as effective, and much easier to use.

Unfortunately the Kilavolt went out of production quite a while back, but there is an even better anti-static product now available: the Furutech Destat III. However, it is priced at an absurd $399! Music Direct currently has it on sale for $329, and if you watch ebay closely you may get as lucky as I and find one for the $200 I paid a coupla years ago.

Just getting into this hobby and this thread is hugely informative! 

Question: how do I identify if a record was recorded digitally or if it is fully analog?

e.g. I am planning to get this when it finally comes out, but I don't see any indication of that important distinction: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WH59NGS/ref=sm_n_au_dka_US_pr_fal_0_1

You all are awesome.  This thread has continued to be some fantastic advice.  I did scan the last few months of threads and didn’t see anything like this.  I am happy to have asked for advice and I hope some others receive the same benefit from reading it that I have. 

 

At this point I have ordered a sweeper, a record clamp, anti-static sleeves, and a cleaning kit (for both the record and the stylus).  I also have a brush coming in with the turntable and preamp. There seems to be a lot of debate on different cleaning machines and processes, and I need to ruminate/research more before I pull the trigger on purchasing one.  I think it is good to learn to do it by hand too.  To me it is similar to learning to drive on a manual, change your tire, or to properly polish dress shoes.  Every gentleman should know how to do these things.  Not that I am a gentleman of course.   By the time I am more proficient cleaning them by hand, I should not only be tired of doing that way but also know more about the different types of cleaning machines and what I am willing to invest in one. 

 

I have also read up on the grading of records which in a lot of ways sounds much like coin grading (if anyone is a numismatist here).  And I have started reading the Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records.  The copy I downloaded is close to 200 pages so please bear with me as I digest that treatise. Once that is done, I will look at the Vinyl Press blog by Bill Hart. 

 

I am still looking at getting a dust cover and a tone arm lifter (Pro-ject Safety Raiser or otherwise).  Anything else in the immediate future I should be looking at? 

 

I have already spoken to my gf about going to some of the mentioned Portland area shops this weekend to check them out. Oh, and I am totally down for a PDX meeting up.  I am even happy to host if you all want to come down to Milwaukie for a BBQ afterward. I do have a decent streaming rig at my desk which is where the turntable is going (exclusively a music system) so we could even do some A/B comparisons. Okay, at least decent to me. 

I use the Manual Cleaning Method on the very informative Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records.

The Revision 3 extends the information on offer and does make a very cost effective Anti Static device known off.

It also offers a very well presented description on particulate in the groove, and whether lodged in a outer or inner groove, if there is a difference in the detriment when the stylus encounters it.

Additionally there is a description of stylus wear in a LP without contamination that can cause detriment to the stylus. The math of the above is above what I will usually work with, which leaves myself to trust the information with an open mind.  It does suggest a thoroughly cleaned LP with Particulate removed to less than 10 microns is a good place to be.

I am again of the view using the supplied information the Manual Cleaning Method is able to achieve this.

Other Methods and especially USM machines less than a 120Kh are not looking likely to function as a cleaning method produce the less than 10 micron particulate removal and achieve the level of purification with certainty.

Other automated methods of cleaning, will be looking most likely to be cleaning solution dependant, to attain depth of soak into the groove required to achieve the removal of less than 10 micron particulate.

As said, I am not aware of any cleaning methods I have used, that has achieved the presence of clean that is perceived during a replay of a manual clean method following the documents advisories. 

Arg.. I hate when I write on my phone and I loose a good post..

Anyway here is the short version.

To get the full performance from the line contact stylus that you have bought, both on clean or dirty records 😜 then fix SRA/VTA setup.

Those that use conical stylus can use the old tip to "put the tone arm parallel to the record surface" or whatever when there with conical it doesn't matter at all what angle that is used.

(Strange that nobody has said that but probably it is more fun to buy yet another machine (USC) First make a good setup.)

@bdp24 , And you can get a conductive grounded sweep arm that not only discharges your record but sweeps the incidental dust away from the stylus when playing for.... hold your breath.....$30.00. This video is a little goofy and it neglected to mention that the right pivot to spindle distance is 7 inches. It also tracks better if you have  the pivot end 1/4" high. 

 

I did not say clean records are not important. What I said was new records do not need to be cleaned. They only need the incidental dust swept away. Think about it. The stampers are used over and over again. I think it is something like 1000 records per stamper pair. If there was any contamination on the stampers ridges it would seriously screw up at least the high frequency performance of the record if not worse. There is absolutely nothing in the grooves of a new record just some dust on the surface which can be easily swept away. The cleaning industry had to create this myth to get more of us to buy cleaning equipment. Used record buyers would not be enough of a market. Many new records are noisy, bad pressings. The noise is imbedded in the vinyl. You can not clean it away but, this adds to the myth anyway. 

One ridiculous thing I see over and over again in the VC is putting their bookshelf speakers on the same surface as their turntable is on!  Huge no-no and should be obvious to anyone doing that!  The sound will distort and feedback from lack of isolation!  Dont be that guy!

 

mijostyn

I disagree in the extreme that new records are contaminated and need to be cleaned. Just sweeping the incidental dust out of the way will do ... new records do not need to be cleaned. They only need the incidental dust swept away ... If there was any contamination on the stampers ridges it would seriously screw up at least the high frequency performance ... The cleaning industry had to create this myth to get more of us to buy cleaning equipment.

Clean records are not a "myth." LPs are not pressed in clean rooms and can attract dust after they've been pressed and before they're inserted into a sleeve and jacket. And of course once an LP is placed on a turntable, its static charge immediately attracts dust.

@mijostyn you are obviously happy to use a sweep arm to remove "incidental" dust. That doesn't make those who aren't satisfied with that approach mythologists. Some day I hope you'll hear a properly cleaned LP and that your mind will be sufficiently open to recognize the difference between it and that for which you argue so incessantly.

Believe me, I didn't want to spend big $$$$ on a Klaudio US cleaner. But I just don't have the patience to use my Nitty-Gritty record cleaner on every LP. The one-button operation of the Klaudio is almost as convenient as your sweep arm. But, it is much, much more effective. 

I have always had a discipline to clean LP's and have even cleaned LP's for others, with what I have come to experience to date using the most recent Manual Cleaning Method, I feel quite sure all previous methods were woefully short of being an ideal practice.

I did attempt to change earlier methods and invested in a USM. For the record, I have not invested a substantial outlay for USM Cleaning Ancillaries. I have a machine that will get a warmed solution in the bath, the motor used to rotate the LP/LP's  will also be capable to produce a rotation that is satisfactory for a 20 Minute Cleaning Cycle.

Where I have little confidence in my USM, is where the Cavitation is produced by the Model, hence I don't feel the cavitation produced from the device is adequate to perform a clean as achieved using the Manual Cleaning Method with correctly produced solutions, applications and methodology.

The USM was also destined to use cleaning solution similar to past used solutions, and I am very satisfied not to have adopted this as a method. 

I have approx' £300 tied up in a USM Set Up that is not being used.

The change in direction in cleaning methods is one where I have approx' £90 tied up in Materials to produce a Solution, along with application devices, rinse devices and drying devices.

Without adding to the method using filtration and heat applied drying, the method is approx' £00.03 pence or $00.05 Cents per LP for the solution as a guide line.

The Applicators and Drying devices will add another small increment to the cost per LP.

As said in a previous post, I can complete approx' 10 LP's in an hour, averaging at six minutes per LP. I would need to clean 10 000 LP's to try and achieve a £00.03 pence cost per LP using the USM Set Up I own, and this is not calculating for the solutions to be used over time, and in my case not feeling confident the machine has achieved the standard of the Manual Clean Method.

The additional required effort to achieve the Manual Clean might not be attractive to all, but it is tactile and that is one of the alluring attractions for those who are wed to using a LP source material.     

The following makes references to a LP manufacture process, the information is possibly describing the contamination that was removed when I discovered how improved a New LP can present following the Manual Cleaning and Purification that is produced. The impression that is perceived that a LP in use is ultra clean is undoubtedly present. Additionally it does leave one feeling the Stylus has a very satisfactory interface within the groove, and is producing the best signal that can be achieved.   

Plasticizer: 1% of a soybean oil epoxide (ESO) provides a lower melt viscosity of the mixture, which reduces the internal friction of the mixture when it is pressed into a record and thereby improves the moldability by filling the groove with less compression force. More than 1% over-saturates the resin thereby producing oily splotches on the surface of the record, and the splotches result in noise on playback. Some of the many forum discussions on removing mold release may be actually be associated with excess plasticizer/modifier. For information, ESO is a yellowish color. So clear records if they use a plasticizer may use something different from ESO.

X.1.5 Lubricant: 0.4% of an esterified montan wax. The wax also acts as a mold release. When the record is removed from the press without the lubricating effect of the montan wax ester in the compound, the grooves of the record are sometimes fractured, torn, and deformed by the removal. These faults in the groove produce noise on playback. Montan wax ester at the stated percentage is compatible with the resins and is homogenized into the surface of the record at the normal pressing temperature. If more than the stated amount of the montan wax ester is used, the excess amount is not absorbed into the surface of the record. Its presence results in non-uniformity in the surface of the record, particularly as related to the friction between the stylus and the groove. This non-uniformity produces noise when the record is played.

Some of the many forum discussions on removing mold release may actually be associated with excess lubricant.

 

It may be obvious to most, but cleaning and static control are two entirely separate subjects. Some forms of cleaning can even induce a static charge, and in my opinion a static charge-less LP is almost a theoretical or idealized concept that can exist only briefly in real time.

Eventually buy a Milty Zerostat 3 Anti-Static Gun. About $99. I’ve had one since the 1980s and still use it. It works despite naysayers who must not be using it correctly. Can make a big difference in how much dust your records attract AFTER cleaning them.

Another option depending on how much money or time you want to spend is building your own vacuum cleaning system using something like the VinylVac.

After all is said and done, though, you might be better off just buying one of the $220 and up commercial vacuum systems (Record Doctor, etc.) but perhaps playing around with different record cleaning formulations or making your own.

Main thing is to have fun. Vinyl isn’t for wimps. There is way more work involved but then you have that nice artwork and liner notes to always have.

Do make sure to properly ground your turntable so you don’t end up with hum.

@mijostyn: I had a similar type "dust sweep arm" in the late-60’s (the Dust Bug, made by Cecil E. Watts of England). But your recommendation of using one in place of an anti-static device---such as the Zerostat or DeStat---is not a good one.

First and foremost, even if the bristles of the dusting arm are effective at neutralizing an LP with a static charge (I have no knowledge one way or the other), it will do so only when the bristles arrive at any given area of the LP surface. In the meantime, the entire rest of the static-charged LP surface will be attracting dust down onto it.

Secondly, anti-static devices are more effective at neutralizing a static charge when the LP is hand-held, rather than sitting on the platter. The conductive grounding wire of the sweep arm you show in no way aids in neutralizing a static charge. Sorry to be the one to tell you that, but it’s a fact. If it did work, using a bare metal platter would work just as well, and they don’t.

There are anti-static brushes made for the photographic industry, with conductive bristles designed to clean negatives. You’ll notice none of them feature a conductive grounding strap. That is just done on consumer models aimed at gullible record collectors and beginner audiophiles. ;-)

The used LP’s I buy locally almost always have a healthy static charge on them (some record shop owners "clean" their trade-ins with a microfiber cloth and Windex, though a couple of mine have a Nitty Gritty or Record Doctor vacuum machine).

From the very long record-cleaning post on Bill Hart’s site (I can’t recommend it too highly), I learned of a great first step in cleaning used LP’s: You can find on ebay a number of sellers offering a hand-help device that is comprised of two plastic discs slightly larger than the diameter of LP center labels, each disc having a rubber gasket around it’s perimeter. You cover the label on both LP sides with the two discs and secure them with the supplied bolt and plastic-handled wingnut.

You are now ready for the first step in the cleaning process. Hold the LP under the running faucet in your kitchen or laundry room sink, and use a brush of your choice and some mild liquid detergent to wash all the dust/dirt/fluff off the LP. The LP is now pre-cleaned for your record cleaning machine (vacuum or ultrasonic). This does the same job as the Spin Clean and Knosti "tanks", without leaving behind a plastic tub to empty and clean. Doing such a pre-wash keeps the record store/previous owner gunk from dirtying your record cleaning machine/water.

@ddonicht We are fortunate to live in Portland, which for a small(ish) town has several good record stores and audio dealers, selling both new and used. Supporting local is best but online vendors like Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc and Music Direct sell hard to find high quality vinyl issues. Your list of record care items is a great start, as is your new analog gear. Have fun, enjoy it all. See you in the record store!

You have inspired me to finally put this together

TOOLS FOR LP’S

1. CARTRIDGES

$15. ALIGNMENT DISC: one side: Lines for Overhang and Two NULL Points

ANTI-SKATE: other blank side: spin platter manually, adjust anti-skate control while watching

https://www.amazon.com/Hudson-Hi-Fi-Turntable-Cartridge-Protractor/dp/B01MU6AD2E/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1HK4102CVP5X2&keywords=hudson+hifi+protractor&qid=1652980845&sprefix=hudson+hifi+protractor,aps,120&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1

$14. TRACKING FORCE, Digital Scale

https://www.amazon.com/Musou-Turntable-Backlight-Tracking-Cartridge/dp/B071P9VZ5Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=10W9ADQJF0QMC&keywords=tracking+force+scale+turntable&qid=1652982087&sprefix=tracking+force+,aps,67&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

$10. AZIMUTH and VTA Alignment Block: clear actylic with Grid of Lines

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Tonearm-Cartridge-Alignment-Headshell/dp/B07794JXYZ/ref=sr_1_8?crid=20KYR5S10Y5C1&keywords=azimuth+alignment+tool&qid=1652982195&sprefix=azimuth%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-8

$6. MAGNIFYING MIRROR to VIEW STYLUS (two). 3-1/2” DIAMETER, One: 10X; One 20x + 2 tweezers

https://www.amazon.com/Magnifying-Funtopia-Magnifier-Tweezers-Blackhead/dp/B093BPDZZD/ref=sr_1_29?crid=3MVJVIBL6SMFW&keywords=small%2Bmakeup%2Bmirror%2B15%2Bx%2B3.5&qid=1652983011&sprefix=small%2Bmake%2Bup%2Bmirror%2B15x%2B3.5%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-29&th=1

$11. FLAT MIRROR to View Azimuth Reflection 4” X 6” X 3MM. Thickness of LP, place under the stylus, view from front, any deviation from straight will be reflected ‘opposite’.

https://www.amazon.com/Plymor-Rectangle-Beveled-Glass-Mirror/dp/B07T31MRZ9/ref=sr_1_8?crid=BQ3FJFG31C2D&keywords=small%2Bflat%2Bmirror&qid=1652983461&sprefix=small%2Bflat%2Bmirror%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-8&th=1

$13. STYLUS CLEANING FLUID, Audio Technica

https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT607a-Cartridge-Stylus-Cleaner/dp/B00DI8I2JM/ref=sr_1_5?crid=7HHAU2OW7TGG&keywords=stylus+cleaner&qid=1653006308&sprefix=stylus+cleaner%2Caps%2C88&sr=8-5

2. CLEAN LPs

$50. MANUAL LP WASH SYSTEM (do batches of 10)

https://www.amazon.com/Record-Cleaner-Cleaning-Brushes-Microfiber/dp/B07VQN5XML/ref=sr_1_67?crid=21DNL6IO42FSJ&keywords=lp+cleaning+kit&qid=1652984282&sprefix=lp+cleaning+kit%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-67

$9. INFANT SCALP SCRUBB BRUSHES (3). Scrub Dirty LP’s Vigotously, then rinse in above system

https://www.amazon.com/Scalp-Scrubbie-Sterile-Cradle-Sponge/dp/B005EJ7YH4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2DSF6EWMO77AC&keywords=infant+scalp+brush&qid=1652984426&sprefix=infant+,aps,77&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A2W58AXSS61W30

$13. OVERSIZED EYEGLASS CLOTHS, Dust LP ONLY IF Needed (13 pack). I DO NOT use a brush anymore. Place LP on platter, just lay cloth on, spin platter by hand while very lightly pulling cloth off the edge to remove surface dust, not push anything down into the grooves.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00S374VSO/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=edf8ce1bb96b6c730ccf869039f09147&hsa_cr_id=7286139130601&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=69ff5251-fe67-4b12-ae01-d114bdce0de0&pd_rd_w=6xLCx&pd_rd_wg=aIG7G&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_lsi4d_asin_1_img

$1.00 DISTILLED WATER

https://www.amazon.com/365-Everyday-Value-Distilled-Water/dp/B074J5L82H/ref=sr_1_7_f3_0o_wf?crid=3O8SQDLD5NYKI&keywords=distilled+water&qid=1653006535&sprefix=distilled+water%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-7

$6. ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL, 91%, 1 Quart

https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Brand-Isopropyl-Alcohol-Antiseptic/dp/B07NFTZ522/ref=sr_1_20?crid=3R7PQ8NF1MDMK&keywords=isopropyl%2Balcohol%2B91&qid=1653006688&sprefix=isopropyl%2Balcohol%2B9%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-20&th=1

$15. GEL STYLUS CLEANER

https://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Stylus-Needle-Cleaning-Gel/dp/B086T4RLY3/ref=sr_1_52?crid=VNKUXR7SGLH0&keywords=stylus+brush&qid=1653008196&sprefix=stylus+brush%2Caps%2C121&sr=8-52

$14. STYLUS BRUSH, Carbon Fiber, Non-Slip Textured Handle

https://www.amazon.com/Boundless-Audio-Stylus-Cleaning-Brush/dp/B087182G57/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3GLAZP4MMEO2J&keywords=STYLUS+CLEANING+BRUSH&qid=1653009531&sprefix=stylus+cleaning+,aps,65&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

 

3. MISCELLANEOUS

$13. ISOLATION PADS below Turntable, I wrapped my edges with black tape)

https://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Equipment-Tuneful-Cables-Audiophile/dp/B076DGD3X2/ref=sr_1_178_sspa?crid=VNKUXR7SGLH0&keywords=stylus%2Bbrush&qid=1653008611&sprefix=stylus%2Bbrush%2Caps%2C121&sr=8-178-spons&th=1

$__ CENTER WEIGHT, Disc Stabilizer. Size/Weight/Style Vary, how strong is your motor?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=audio+technica+record+weight&i=electronics&crid=1OQGMXU52UY8V&sprefix=audio+technica+record+weight%2Celectronics%2C83&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

 

 

@bslon 

 

Wow, that is impressive. Thank you.

Not many have had their first experience of Vinyl with such an itinerary of items in place to prepare for the upcoming eventualities.

I sense you are a 'duck to water' on this method of replays.

Taking on this quite different approach to streaming, has surely presented a few head scratching moments, with the basic considerations being presented. 

As I have read the debates about cleaning methods and static reduction, I started to think about the power and the grounding. So I looked at my AMP and my DAC/Preamp and there is no ground screw like I have seen on receivers I’ve owned. I double checked pictures of the RPM 3 Carbon and the Mobile Fidelity StudioPhono and both have ground screws. Am I supposed to connect the 2 or do I need to ground them both elsewhere? If so, where?

Also, an isolation system was mentioned.  My current plan is to put it on top of my DAC.  The DAC is on my Amp and both are on a wood file cabinet a couple of feet to the side of my left speaker.  I am considering getting another cabinet and putting it to the other side, about the same distance from the right speaker.  I do have some silicon isolation feet. I was thinking about getting a sheet of granite (scrap from countertops), putting it on those feet, and then the turntable on top of that.  

The turntable and phono stage are due in tomorrow so you know what I will be doing tomorrow evening. :-) 

Connect the TT ground to the phono stage ground. You do not need a special wire. A piece of solid copper 24 gauge insulated will do!

A few comments. Cleaning new records is important to keep future static down. A new uncleaned record after a few months of play will develop static / dust faster than one that has been cleaned - both kept in the same sleeve - that’s why we clean new records. I do think a good method of recording to digital is important - and I have been collecting records for 35 years and will never stop.  Once you have bought the record you will get more from your investment if you can switch between formats and still listen when you don’t have the time (or steady hand) to fire up the analog rig. Tascam makes a good DSD ripper. I only have time to catalog about 20% of my collection and put it on shuffle when working around the house.  According to Jriver, 20% is about 43 days of music. 

I have built many variants of a Support Structure for a TT.

My experiences of trialing different materials has created a method for producing a structure that always utilises Granite as the Base Tier, I have no concerns if this Tier is seated onto a Cork Pad, I have found the use of it has a attractive influence when used as a footer in a variety of situations.

I have always achieved a set up that if totally satisfactory by using a Two Tier Sub Plinth as the minimum, built of a rigid structure. This has been the preferred method over other options, such a Wall Mounted Shelf and suspension of the base platform from a Wall Mounted Shelf.

The use of Granite as the lowest tier is in my view a very good place to build from, and will be a good place to initially seat the TT.

Do not overlook the need to have a rigid structure under the Granite.

Also keep in mind that your environment selected to set up your TT is unique, energies transferred within it, are most likely not the same as any other TT users environment.

Methods adopted to control energies transferred within the environment,  will have a impact unique to your situation, being inquisitive about the choices available can bring great benefits, over time, a lot of different materials can be experimented with for almost Zero Outlay and a very attractive mounting method can be discovered.

My Cabinet Floor Standing and Stand Mount Loudspeakers when used, are always on a Two Tier Plinth, with Granite as the lowest tier and Kitchen Worktop Chipboard as the upper tier, with Spike Separation.

The Speakers are seated onto a suspension footer. I know chipboard as a upper tier has worked very satisfactorily with my TT mounting method in the past.    

   

Nice to hear from you again cleeds. How's the wife and kids?

No, pressing plants are not clean room and as I stated in a earlier post there is always some incidental dust on record and it varies a lot from almost nothing to painfully obvious. But, incidental dust can be brushed away with any good record brush. I use my sweep arm. The only problem with the sweep arm is when you lift it at the end of the record it will leave a little pile of dust in the runout area. I keep an Ortofon carbon brush handy to brush that away. As I have stated a million times there is no other environmental contamination that can be cleaned out of the grooves. Unfortunately, what happens I think is that the stampers become contaminated with dust so that by the end of the run they are stamping dust marks into the vinyl resulting in noisy records, then there is contaminated vinyl. I have tried over the years several times, in different ways including ultrasound to "clean" the noise away and it does not do anything. Since I only play records I purchased new and I use a sweep arm with a dust cover I hardly ever have to clean my stylus which is good because Lyra stylus cleaner is more expensive than gold.

I was just given a load of 78 rpm records so I have purchased a record cleaning machine. After studying the problem for 6 months I have ordered a Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro. Why? It uses fresh fluid for each cleaning and vacuums everything off the record leaving it bone dry and free of any contaminant. Air drying or blow drying are unacceptable. If you let distilled water dry on a flat dark surface you will see a residue. Distilled water is not contaminant free. the Pro cleans both sides at the same time and it is extremely well made. I will use it on a few noisy new records and see what happens. I will record a song to the computer both before and after cleaning to study the results. I have not had this capability before so this will be fun and informative. I hope you will enjoy seeing or hearing the results.  

Yes- to follow all the above advice, you will have to quit your job, get rid of your girlfriend and spend all of your time and money dealing with analog playback. This has happened here time and time again where the geezers here front-load a newbie with so much information that you’re afraid to play a record without endless rituals and equipment. I guarantee you that nobody here started out this way. Yes you do need a carbon-fiber brush and some stylus cleaner and a basic record cleaning machine is not a bad idea, but don’t go crazy in the beginning. You don’t even know if you like playing records yet. Take a breath. 

@charyo

+1

And start cheap. Just be aware that the sound can be improved by any and all of the above.

Find a retailer that can set up your turntable for you. Practice doing it yourself - on cheap equipment which, if broken, is more irritating than depressing.

Good luck, and enjoy!

 

 

@bdp24 , The dust bug was not conductive and it did not follow the grooves well. The arm I showed you above has a conductive carbon filament running down it's center. It neutralizes static beautifully. Because it's impedance is very low, a dead short actually, it will instantaneously discharge the entire surface on the record. Static travels over a surface rapidly. It will not turn corners and it will not travel through the record to the other side so you can have almost no static on one side and a huge charge on the other. Another interesting phenomena it the playing surface can have a negative charge and the label a positive one! Vinyl and paper are at opposite ends of the triboelectric series. The vinyl is pulling electrons from the paper which is happy to supply them!   This arm also follows the groove beautifully and given the price it is a no brainer. It's cheap and works way better than a Zerostat which in my opinion and, I have used one extensively, are garbage. They do work but the results are not near as good. I also feel silly using them. People look at you as weirdo. "Look at that guy squirting his records!"  You might as well pull out the wiener and pee on them. No really, the problem is that records pick up static very easily. you have to discharge the record while it is playing as @lewm correctly states above, if records ever have no charge it will only be momentary. 

Why don't you cough up 30 bucks and try one. Then tell us what you think and if you think it s-cks then so be it.  

I won’t participate in the endless and sometimes pointless debate about which cleaning method is best or especially about which static charge removal method is best, but I will say again that eliminating static charge and cleaning an LP are two entirely different subjects. Cleaning machines do not necessarily remove static charge. In fact in certain designs cleaning can enhance the static charge on the surface of an LP, although that is not usual. Mijo is correct in pointing out that removing or reducing the charge on the surface of the LP you happen to be playing does not necessarily remove charge from the entire LP. It has been shown that the charge simply migrates to the downside of the LP, enhancing the charge on that side. And I also agree with the most recent sentiment. If you are new to this part of the hobby, just go ahead and play records. You can worry about the rest of the stuff anytime later and forever more.

+1 @mijostyn For experimentation I took a few of my older audiophile records to my dealer who recommended a record cleaning machine and we tested them on a system about at the level of mine to see if cleaning actually made them sound better. I handle records very carefully, keep them in rice paper sleeves and the jackets in polyvinyl sleeves, keep them vertical, etc. So they are clean. I use a micro fiber anti static brush - Audioquest just improved theirs a bit - its $30 and I swipe before each playing.

I could not hear any difference between the pre and post cleaned records, nor could the dealer. That is what is important after all. The sales pitch stopped. I rarely buy used records - only when there is something I really want that is not available. If you are buying used records and the place doesn't clean them on a good machine, I guess you should get one. Most really good records become available at some point, you just have to be on the look out since they can sell out pretty quickly. Rumors just became available on a 45 and it sounds great. Blew away my Nautilius Recording of it. With use record prices rising so quickly, many times new ones are well worth it. Especially Blue Notes for $25.

Acoustic Sounds, Music Direct and Elusive disc are all very good sellers (AS & MD are also manufacturers), although AS is selling so much it takes them up to a week (or more if a blockbuster just came out) to ship stuff out these days. Amazon recently improved their packaging, just be careful that you are getting the pressing you want.

@lewm is SO right about record cleaning machines not necessarily being anti-static devices. In fact, I have found that more than two revolutions of the drying function on a VPI vacuum machine will CREATE static on an LP. Fortunately, two revolutions leaves the LP completely dry, and static free.

I myself never felt "silly" using the Zerostat, but that’s moot now that I have the superior Furutech DeStat III, a fantastic, highly effective, easy to use, anti-static device. Too bad about the price :-(. Lots of brand new/factory-sealed LP’s exhibit a considerable static charge when removed from their sleeve, often emitting a "cracking" sound when leaving the sleeve. Speaking of sleeves, after cleaning a used LP replace the original inner sleeve with a poly sleeve from someone like Vinyl Storage Solutions in Canada, half the price of the identical MoFi sleeve. And replace new paper sleeves too.

@mijostyn: Good point about the Dust Bug not being conductive; that had not occurred to me. It's been a long time, but I seem to recall the Bug traversing an LP side at about the same rate as the arm on my AR turntable (this was in 1969, before some of you were born ;-).

One thing that makes such a device irrelevant to me is the fact that imo the most important time to neutralize any static charge on an LP is before you clean it. If, like mijostyn, you don't "believe" in cleaning an LP before playing (other than with a dusting brush, of which I have the Hunt, Decca, and new Audioquest), I guess you disagree. We all find our own preferences in LP care; whatever works for you is cool.

Consumer alert: A while back I instigated a thread dedicated to disclosing the used LP's I had recently obtained, which has laid dormant for quite some time. For the benefit of my Portland neighbors, I will now go to it and list the LP's I brought home this week. 

Clicks and Pops, poorly produced new vinyl, poor storage  medium. Every time you play it  you degrade the record, permanently, especially with the low priced cart that will end up on the end of your arm. And whats the point of new releases digitally recorded transferred to vinyl?

Put some money into a GOOD DAC,, a tube one if you like. I have a Kora Hermes with a dual tube output  stage and it makes anything plugged into it sound gorgeous and analog like.

Forget the hipster turntable,their time has come and gone....

Why bother, really.  Clicks and pops, poor new pressing, digitally recored music transferred to plastic?  Whats the point. If you need to see something go round and round go open reel.

Much sexier than a Thorens.

Alright, the RPM 3 Carbon was delivered as well as the Mobile Fidelity StudioPhono.  I set the turntable up and the the stylus pressure using the little balancing stylus pressure gauge that came with it.  I have a digital scale but I wanted to use the other method first. I hooked up the wiring and connected it all to my amp.  I cleaned my Purple Rain album, put it on and started the motor.  Everything is move correctly so I positioned the arm/stylus and used the little level to drop it.  Low and behold...MUSIC!!!  Unfortunately it was Alvin and the Chipmunks doing a cover of Prince's Purple Rain.  So I lifted the arm and stopped the motor. I then moved the belt to the other spindle and tried again.  Much better this time.  Prince sounded much more like himself. 

I am currently listening to Pink Floyd The Dark Side of the Moon and it sounds great.  Some pops here and there but certainly nothing that takes away from the music.  However, I went to adjust the volume and realized that I do that through the pre-amp/DAC which is not in this chain.   My amp does does not have its own volume control.  I checked the player and I don't see one nor do I see anything on the Mobile Fidelity.  DOH! Does anyone have an idea to make this work?  The only thing I can think of is to find cables that will go from RCA (phone side) to 3 pin XLR so that I can connect it into my pre-amp/DAC.  

@grossman616

How did we ever live without the wisdom of your 85 posts?

Hey ddonicht,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I'm a died in the wool vinyl guy, & as much as I hate to say it .... CHAYRO  maybe correct with his 1st statement. I grew up with records, so I learned how to handle them, clean them, and they're not all created =.

Good Hi-Fi records are expensive, most used R&R recordings from the 70's/80's bye in large are crap unless you get 1st pressings & the list goes on. To add to that, a lot of modern speakers have been voiced for digital sources.

Economically speaking, it's been my experience that a superior analog set-up will cost you at least double to that of a comparable Cd rig.

 If you plan to eventually go in to this hobby full on, like a lot of us have. With a dedicated listening room that's treated, with it's own plugs wired directly from the panel, and your gear is isolated, then sure, you'll be able to justify the added expense of going down the vinyl road. But if you're married, have your gear set-up in a Victorian tea room with springy wooden floors ..... the advantages of an analog set-up will not be audible.  

 

@ddonicht - you can buy rca to xlr adaptors to plug into your preamp. Check Amazon. They have cables and adaptors. 

Before you consider the more expensive moving coil cartridge consider the following: When the stylus on a moving magnet cartridge wears out it is easy and inexpensive  to change the stylus. But when a moving coil stylus wears out it costs almost as much as replacing the cartridge to have the stylus replaced at a shop specially equipped to do so. But the lead-in wires on a moving coil cartridge vibrate with the coil and eventually fatigue fracture and the cartridge can't be repaired. Typically a stylus lasts about 1000 hours. If a moving coil cartridge costs $2000, you pay $2/hour to play records. Is the difference between the sound of a moving coil cartridge and a moving magnet cartridge noticeable enough to justify it?

OP,

A preamp will always have rca inputs for a turntable. What is this “preamp/DAC”? Sounds like it is all digital… not really a preamp.

 

I am a little confused. Always Tt —> phonostage —> preamp —> amp. The first connection is always rca.. the phonostage will have rca… could have XLR… after that it depends.

 

But volume control is done with the analog signal in the preamp. 

Mississippi Records in North Portland has the best prices, and you can listen to used vinyl before you buy - highly recommended.

We can all argue or, rather, debate, 'till the cows come home, whether vinyl LPs, even new ones, benefit from cleaning, ultrasonic or otherwise. Be that as it may, I choose to put my faith & confidence in what the experts on this subject, including scientists, have to say and one other important factor = my own experiences. I hasten to add here that what I'm about to share is in no way scientific or meant to be construed as a fair A/B comparison(s)! Too much water has gone under the bridge in these past many decades. Also, like most mortals, I am just as susceptible to Presbycusis as the next person. However, I haven't had an audiological examination since Christ was a corporal and my friends tell me they're surprised by my hearing acuity when we go to equipment auditions. Since scheduling an audiological examination, just for fun, is not something on my itinerary, I choose to remain blissfully ignorant on this point, for the time being.

I won't go into details here in order to keep this as brief and to the point as I know how. For those of you who may yearn for more detail, check out a post I created 8-24-21 labelled "Record Cleaning Machines". I'm not trying to toot my own horn, here, but merely offering this because Mr. Neil Antin, himself, contributed many, many times in this post and I, for one, learned a great deal in the process. Mr. Antin definitely helped me improve my LP cleaning regimen a great deal! God Bless Him!

In days of yore, I cleaned a good portion of my LP collection (purchased new in the 60s & 70s and only played on my trusty old Phillips 212) manually. Definite sound improvement! More recently, after having purchased and put together my own lash-up US cleaning system employing a 40kHz frequency sweep machine and a Knosti for final rinse, I cleaned several of those same records again and treated them with Last record preservative. Another significant improvement! Admittedly, though, I have a new, and much better TT & cart now. This is, of course, a definite mitigating factor and completely invalidates any fair A/B comparison in this regard. However, much more recently, I took several of those freshly cleaned LPs to a high-end shop and had them cleaned, once again, using a Degirtter. I re-treated those with Last before playing them again on my TT, although I'm not sure that was necessary because my understanding is that Last works on the molecular level. If there was any sonic improvement after a run-through with the Degritter, I can't honestly say. This is why I ultimately decided not to part with three grand (more, now) for the Degirtter. Regardless, I just may change my mind about that, at some point, because the Degirtter is just so darn convenient and much less labor intensive than my US cleaning system.

With regard to dust, I would never dream of spinning my LPs without the dust cover down. Yes, I know some purists fiercely disagree with this. However, I've done this both ways and don't hear any difference in fidelity either way. Plus, there's just dust in any room.

Record brush? I use the Audioquest Anti-Static brush, both before AND after every play. I also use an Onzow ZeroDust before & after every play, regardless of what Mr. Fremer had to say in what I and many others consider to be a hatchet job of reporting on this in Analog Planet. Where's the follow up, Mikey? I communicated with Onzow Corporation on this and got a prompt response? Did you? Did WAMM Engineering? There was promised follow-up. Where is that? I'll probably add a liquid stylus cleaner to my regimen, occasionally, as well. As with most things, there is a right way and a wrong way to use these things. Some purists eschew the notion of using any brush(s) and, instead, use puffs of air, like the kind generated from a small bellows you'd use for camera lenses. These folks don't think anything other than a stylus belongs in those precious record grooves after a proper record cleaning.

Stylus pressure gauge? I still have my old and trusty Shure Precision Stylus Force Gauge SFG-2, which is surprisingly quite accurate when compared to my Audio Additives digital stylus force gauge.

Equipment placing? I'm a firm believer in placing a TT, especially low mass designs, on rock solid foundations and keeping the amplifier as far away from the TT & cart as possible. I also would not place components of any kind on top of one another.

That's just some of the ways I roll. There are many others, as well, to be sure. To each, his own! Live and let live! Vive la difference! Like most things in life, there are trade-offs between how meticulous or compulsive you want to be when spinning your LPs and how much you want to spend just listening to the music. After all, when all is said & done, isn't that what we all really do this for ... for the love of music?

May the music be with you all! Enjoy!

 

 

Congratulations on having a wise audio plan. The system you outline will be more than fine to figure out what vinyl is all about.

Once you hear vinyl played well, there may be no doing back...

@ddonicht Okay, so what all would you recommend for someone just getting into this hobby?  Especially if I am getting any used records, I should probably look at a record cleaner.  What else for equipment or doodads?  What about tricks or tips for increasing my collection? 

The above has been your request for information in the OP.

After reading and contributing to this thread, It certainly looks like the bases have been covered, and a good foundation has been made available to you.

Don't forget that Youtube is also your friend, there are a variety of demonstrations that can help to show how to best use equipment and ancillaries like you have purchased. A picture is a saving of a 1000 Words and Video is a saving of 10 000.

Also I see you have been looking at the Manual Cleaning Method.

If you do choose this as the selected method and have acquired materials to create the solutions. If at a later date you choose a mechanical or USM cleaning method, there will materials immediately available to produce a solution, that will be absolutely perfect for any of these alternate methods.