Turntable Mat question

I use a leather mat, (split cowhide) on my Linn. Sounds better than the original felt, better than cork. Drops the noise floor - really. And eliminates static.

@kingbarbuda  Give Herbie's Grungebuster Mat a try is you want to take your sound to an even higher level than the WayExcellent.  My Grungebuster Mat makes my vinyl sing quite beautifully on my VPI Scout acrylic platter table.

Hi rocky1313,
with your turntables Herbie's, funkfirm mat would be ok.

@snafu011

I agree with Chakster 100%. The Micro CU-180 is the best I’ve used. I have tried numerous: leather, cork, felt, graphite, thick rubber, etc. and the CU-180 was clearly the best from the first. They are expensive and difficult to find, but worth it for sure. Make sure it’s flat. I have a Technics SP10 and the fit is lovely!

Absolutely. There is also CU-500 (2.7kg) which is thicker and heavier than CU-180 (1.8kg). Not every turntable can drive 2.7kg Micro Seiki CU-500, but Technics SP-10mkII can do that easily (what a powerfull motor). For Technics owners i would highly recommend Micro CU-500 which i've been using myself with my SP-10mkII for a long time.

Ok. I ordered the Hudson Valley acrylic mat and the Herbie’s Way Excellent II mat. The Hudson mat has the small depression to the label. But it extends all the way to the record edge and doesn’t allow for the extra thickness of the lead in edge. Plus to me, others will differ, there is not much science to this “mat”. It’s a sheet of acrylic.
As for the Herbie’s Way Excellent II mat. It is made of a very nice silicone that adheres to my VPI platter. It has the central depression for the record label and it does not extend all the way to the record edge thereby accommodating for the thicker record lead in edge. To me, there is more though behind this mat with more isolation and accommodation for your record to keep it flat. Together with my VPI signature clamp and Wayne’s outer ring, I know my vinyl is flat and isolated with the Herbie’s mat underneath. This one is a keeper. 
The Hudson acrylic mat is being returned to Amazon tomorrow. 

I agree with Chakster 100%.  The Micro CU-180 is the best I've used.  I have tried numerous: leather, cork, felt, graphite, thick rubber, etc. and the CU-180 was clearly the best from the first.  They are expensive and difficult to find, but worth it for sure.  Make sure it's flat.  I have a Technics SP10 and the fit is lovely!

I don't use clamps, i use record weight on top of the CU-180 copper mat or SAEC SS-300 alloy mat,  and let me vote for Micro Seiki again, because it's just a pure beauty - ST-10 Disc Stabilizer. 

@fatboyriding No issues with the weight of the slate platter. You sure it's not 'drying out' the music? 

Hey Uber,

I had the Mitchell clamp with the Kenwood KD-500 and the Platter Pad. I put a thin quarter sized washer under the record and cut out a Mitchell clamp sized in diameter piece of 2 mm thick plastic from a larger piece of Tupperware bottom that was flat, so the plastic was a little thicker. I traced the Mitchell clamp onto the Tupperware. I then found a smaller round object that was about I" less in diameter than the clamp and traced the outside of it so it fit perfectly inside the other circle. Both of these circles were then cut out carefully. I then glued the piece of round plastic to the Mitchell clamp and now had a very respectable version of the Sota clamp on the cheap. It clamped every record in my collection. You had to push the clamp down with one hand pretty securely while tightening the knob with the other hand.

It even looked fine, too. Never had the plastic fall off in over 15 years of ownership. It was not a PITA to do on each record and worked great.

Bob

I’ve now had a concept realised! From a slate plinth for my Garrard 401 I had the maker produce a 7.5 mm slate platter mat. Sent one to Noel Keywood to review he kept it! Probably the single best improvement I’ve ever experienced! 

As I said mine came with TWO felt washers, not sure if that is common?
The one I use is half the thickness of the other.

I did try the thicker one but even on a thin flexible record it just did not feel right so back in the drawer that went never to see the Sun again!

Possibly Mitchell realised their original standard washer was maybe too thick for some of the 180 and 200g reissues? Feedback to them from customers possibly?

That would be my best guess.

I have only ever used the thinner one and I truly do not lock it down very hard.

I'm surprised uberwaltz. The washer that comes with the Mitchell clamp is very thick compared to the other systems I have used. I'm sure it compresses some and I have not use one myself as my turntables are already accommodated. Keep an eye on your 200 gm records. I bet if you look closely right around the spindle hole you will see a few little cracks show up. It does not effect playback at all and I doubt it will ever effect playback over a person's lifetime. So it is a mute issue but, it does happen. The system is also way better than not doing anything and I think better than the periphery ring which is a PIA to use and puts a lot more weight on the bearing which can't be good for it. In the case of the Clearaudio with the magnetic bearing you have to use the ring every play or the bearing will not sag as much changing the VTA and with a pivoted arm the azimuth even though it will not change the wear rate of the bearing.  

@rocky1313 Others have given you the clarification you asked for as well as I could.

My favorite mat ever. 

I have been using the Mitchell record clamp for a few years now in combination with the 5mm Achromat.

The beauty of the Mitchel is that you can apply as little or as much pressure as you desire. And it comes with two different thickness felt washers so some flexibility there too.

Not seen any issues on 200g vinyl and it really does flatten down some of the "flexi flier" records very well indeed.

YMMV

Rocky what Ralph is saying  is that the center of the mat should be recessed to fit the elevated label area and have a total diameter slightly less than the record so that the fatter record lip can hang over the edge of the mat. This way the playing surface of the record is in fill contact and supported by the mat assuming the record is flat. Any mat or platter that does not do this should be avoided. Now no record is perfectly flat.
There are three systems to press there are three systems to press the record into the mat forcing it flat. All systems use a center record clamp. The there is the periphery ring ala VPI, Clear audio. Vacuum hold down ala SOTA, Basis, Air Force and finally the SME, Walker, Kuzma solution which is a bit harder to describe. There is a thin washer about 1" in diameter placed over the spindle under the mat. The record clamp is designed so that it only contacts the record label at  the clamps very periphery. So, now you have the record floating in the air the thickness of the washer so that when you screw the clamp down it flexes and forces the record into the mat. If you try this with an old 78 (shellac) it will crack and they warn you not to do this but vinyl is suitably flexible to take this.
My own opinion is that the periphery ring is a PIA. The SME clamp method works but stresses the record and I have seen 200 gm records crack a little at the center. 180 and below no problem. I personally like the vacuum method best assuming it is designed correctly using low vacuum pressure and a noiseless pump. It is easy to use and it works brilliantly. I think the bass and dynamic range are improved but I have no evidence to back that up and as always it could be psychological. If you want to think it sounds better it will. 

rocky1313,

In my post, the Platter Pad is the name of an actual mat that is almost 1/4" thick. It was a somewhat flexible, but firm mat. This was sold back in about 1980 and is probably not being made anymore. Someone might still have one if you put in a wanted ad.  The combo with the KD-500 and Grace 707 was very highly reviewed back in the late 1970's to early 1980's.

Bob

@rocky1313 you’re thinking about diameter, but think about the thickness and concave of the vinyl, look here

Then look at the proper mat and try to understand why it is not flat as a pancake, but curved inward on the label area and on the area under the edge of the record.

SAEC engineers were a bit smarter and designed their mat not only for LPs, but also for 45s, this is why SAEC SS-300 mat shape is not flat. There is an inward curve circle for the 7 inch size of the recod.

Using an LP as a mat is bad idea. The best mats designed 30-40 years ago, you can’t find a better solution than Micro Seiki CU-180 / CU-500 Mats and SAEC SS-300 mat in my opinion.

Ralph....in response to your latest post, I need clarification ...I am confused....explain complementary mat shape   
since the record is the same size as the platter and being used as a mat,both mat and record are same size and shape.Please explain
Thank you

Atmasphere, I have been using vacuum hold down for 30 years and have never damaged a record. I suppose if you threw sand on the platter before the record you might be able to do some damage. No flat mat of any material can control a record that is not flat. They can dampen platter resonance and to some extent in the record (fortunately vinyl is pretty lifeless stuff) A properly designed vacuum system works perfectly all the time and every time regardless of the condition of the record at some additional expense and another box ( big box for the Walker) 

Interesting test Ralph.
I literally had to place my ear within 3 inch of the arm/cart before I could hear it.
One foot away absolute silence.

Nice to have some type of confirmation of what my listening tests have told me.

Thanks!

Atmosphere ...I would like to ask you about using record for record mat.
You said that using an LP for record mat is trickier but should be the same hardness as traditional record mat. I have tried it ...sounds good.

@rocky1313 What I said was

But the LP is trickier- the platter pad has to be very nearly the same hardness as the vinyl (a durometer is helpful) to be most effective.

What I meant by this was that the interface with the LP is trickier to get right with a platter pad because it has to be the same hardness as the LP itself.
I have thought about using vinyl as part of a platter pad material, but as has been pointed out, an actual LP won't work because its the wrong shape. A platter pad has to be a complementary shape so its in contact with the LP surface and another LP or stack of LPs won't let that happen.

Hi ...Thank you for all your responses. 
Atmosphere ...I would like to ask you about using record for record mat.
You said that using an LP for record mat is trickier but should be the same hardness as traditional record mat. I have tried it ...sounds good.
Am I losing anything sound wise ?
Thanks Ralph

I had a Kenwood KD-500 for about 18 years with a Grace G-707 arm.  I used the Platter Pad on it and it was a very good sound.  Only traded it in at the end as the speed started having problems staying true.  Bought a Maplenoll Ariadne air bearing TT/ arm that after about 9 months, I got working perfectly finally.  The Kenwood with Grace combo was highly reviewed by at least 2 rags at the time.  It was a very good sounding combo.  The 'Noll was much better sounding, but the PITA factor of all the possible ways the air delivery from the pump could go wrong wore me out.  Twice it caused the cantilever to snap close to a 90 degree angle.  I bought the Kenwood for $160 new and the Grace for $97 new from mail order places in California in the late 70's.  Tough to beat combo for that money.

Bob

I have a KD 500. Using the original mat. Sounds fine. Are there particular ones I might investigate for this turntable? Only if you have personal experience. Theory only goes so far. Thanks.

You do have to be careful with vacuum hold down. I have records that are permanently noisy on that account alone. 


A record mat has a specific job: control platter resonance and control LP resonance. If you can tap on the raw platter and it rings- the platter pad will help. But the LP is trickier- the platter pad has to be very nearly the same hardness as the vinyl (a durometer is helpful) to be most effective. Otherwise the pad will fail to absorb certain frequencies and may reflect them.

One way to tell your platter pad is working right is to turn the volume all the way down and just listen to the stylus in the groove. It should be pretty quiet. But if you can hear it from a foot or more away that's a pretty good sign your platter pad is failing at its job.

Nobody here heard a turntable with vacuum hold down? Basis, SOTA and Air Force take things to a whole new level. Walker also. 

Sorry, i was wrong about the measurement of my platters, so i delited my post regarding The Mat vs. Micro Seiki mat.

The Mat (aka BA mat, 293mm diameter) should be fine for Technics platter. But Sakura Systems does not ship overseas.

But i prefer Micro Seiki gunmetal mats anyway.

Tried the Boston mat and it killed the sound. Yes, it made things quieter and more controlled but it robbed the music of soul. Almost like going from a great original analog pressing to a remastered CD.

Next stop, Graphene mats. Hel-loo!

A 20+ yr old ringmat. They appear to have gone Uber complex now with extra things you put under them. 

I’m really happy with the basic mat.

I did try the Hudson acrylic mat ( with label recess) but still preferred my 5mm Funk Firm Achromat.

However it is all going to be tt dependant as well as platter material.

Everyone is likely to have a slightly different experience.

My tt is Nottingham Analog Spacedeck.

Boston Audio developed a carbon graphite mat that many found to their liking, and sold it for quite a few years. BA is out of business, but Sakura Systems is now making and selling it for $250.

Well, wouldn’t you know it? I took off the 10" record mat and played Basie Jam #2 again directly on the CTC oversize aluminum platter on my 401. Heck, better. Tighter bass, faster 3D cymbals, more color and emotion. I didn’t even bother adjusting VTA as it sounds perfect. Thanks for berating me!

 I had the mission sorbothane mat on my glass platter for several years and it sounded better than bare glass, or any other mat I had tried at that time, like cork and felt

But my current acrylic platter, without any mat provides the most vibrant and expressive reproduction on my turntable at present.

For that reason and since replacing the platter may not an option on the turntables listed - If I were to try any mat I would opt for something like this one...
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_atf_aps_sr_pg1_2?ie=UTF8&adId...

But I would make sure it has the recess for the label

Regards - Steve

If I had to choose, Sorbothane would probably be my least favorite material of all time. 

I've been using a Mission Sorbomat ( Sorbothane) on my turntables for over 30 years with excellent results.  Unfortunately , they are no longer made and rarely available. 

I replaced my stock Technics SL-D2 turntable mat with a GEM Dandy rubber cork compound mat and enjoy the quietness it brought to my ’daily driver’ very much.

It’s also not to expensive at $60 and they always go on sale for less. And be aware that all rubber cork compound mats are not of the same quality.

no mat for me.... VPI Classic platter

@hifijunky and @technick What is the optimal thickness for a Herbies mat on a VPI Prime Signature turntable? Thanks.

Herbies Mats are the way to go. I am using the Grungebuster Mat with a Ceramic platter turntable with excellent results. You can't go wrong.

I’ve tried a lot of mats on my SL1200, and ended up going with a Herbies Way Excellent ll Mat. You can get them in basically any diameter and thickness to suit your particular turntable. 

@browndt So do you place the LP directly on the metal platter on your Prime Signature? I have a Prime Signature too. Do you use the included record weight? How about an outer ring?

Those platers were specifically designed to use w/o a mat but to couple the record appropriately to the plater you have to use a clamp and a ring
(for another $1000). The ring is a PIA. SOTA, SME, Kuzma and Walker have much more elegant solutions to that problem. There is no such thing as a flat record although properly pressed 200 gm records come close. With any pivoted arm you are going to get warp wow unless you flatten out the warp. That is something you can actually hear. And, an appropriate mat should sound like absolutely nothing. All good mats should sound exactly the same unless you have a problem with your platter ringing. Tap to find out!

Absolute correct, no mat is best. I have a VPI Prime Signature. VPI recommends no mat. I tried several of them and they all deteriorated the sound. 

I have a Clearaudio turntable. It has no mat when purchased. The dealer/shop/owner frowned at me when I asked about a mat, he said not nessessary. After I got it I have tried a cork and a felt and a lp record. I find it best without a mat. I do use a light weight. I supose if a mat was a needed part it would be supplied?

I'm taking some heat for my 10" vinyl record mat. It sounds better on most material than many other mats I've listened to and that's all that matters.

All record mats sound different from each other....you can make your own easily by cutting a disc from cardboard, linoleum, anything.  If you like the results fine, if not, keep listening.

I am using an Oracle record mat and HRS record weight on my Technics SL1200G.  Sounds much better than the stock mat and no weight.  There is more air, an intoxicating sound that makes me want to keep listening and playing more records.  another Audiogoner deserves the credit to what I am now using as he is using it as well and advised me.