Turntable cost:benefit

The correlation of price of a turntable and the amount of records one owns is zero.

The correlation of price of a turntable and the level of sound quality one wants to achieve is everything.

Almost six years ago I wrote an essay about analog where I asked the same question: what is my cost to benefit with all the different superb formats out there?

https://themightythunderer.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/quo-vadis-analog/

Since then, I’ve updated my turntable and phono preamp and I’m listening to vinyl again. And DSD. And SACDs. And Redbook CDs. It’s all good. 

With vinyl records you have the same diminishing returns. Hyper capitalism has spoiled the record collectors market as well and first pressings are now trophies for the rich: $1000+ for ’original’ blue notes anyone?

But when you do a little homework you will discover that the sound quality on those records is determined by the metal work (lacquers and stampers), which was often the same with second and third pressings. This means you can get more or less the same sound quality for a fraction of the price of an ’original’. This applies to just about every record label worth collecting.

So in my opinion this is what the smart audiophile record collector with limited funds should do: buy a turntable in the ’sweet spot’ of the price range (around $10-12k for a complete record player is about right, considerably less if you dare to go used) and play 2nd or 3rd pressings from the analog age, manufactured a few years after the first pressing. Obviously these are always previously owned, so condition is everything and access to a good record vacuum cleaner is a necessity. And don’t waste your time and money on modern 'audiophile' reissues.....

Kac, cost benefit ratio was what I was taking about. You want the most performance for your money and don't feel like spending $60K on a phono set up like most of us. So, you look for the point of diminishing returns. Somewhere between $10K and $15k (I am talking about turntable, tonearm and cartridge) there is a steep cliff in performance for dollar. The equipment I suggested is right at that point not only in performance but usability. You can put this turntable on a flimsy  card table and it will work fine. You can get it with a dust cover which for me is a critical issue. Put a conductive sweep arm on it and you have a record playing system of the highest caliber. 
As far as records are concern 800 is quite a lot as the vast majority of music listeners have none. Be it records, files or CDs having a lot of music is fun. Listening to the same music over and over again is boring. When you have a big collection there are always records that you have not listened to for a while and especially if your system has evolved it is always fun to listen to older records and discover that they are actually better than you remember. 

I'm afraid that a person who advice you to use any cartridge with Elliptical stylus like your Sumiko for 1500 hrs know nothing about stylus life span and the difference between stylus profiles such as Elliptical (one of the cheapest and simplest) and advanced profiles like MicroRidge and related. Only Micro Ridge can be used for 1500 hrs while the Elliptical profile will be dead after say 500 hrs top ! 

If it easy to check. Just learn a bit about life span of the styli, it depends on diamond profile. 

If you're using your Sumiko for more than 500 hrs you will damage your records soon or already damaged it. How come anyone can expect 1500 hrs from an Elliptical profile? Even Shibata can't be used for such a long time. 

If you actually listen to 800 lp's, I say that you can justify any amount of money. The issues are what you can afford and what you want to spend (I think that these two are different).

I have a few thousand lp's and I concentrate on bang for buck. Consider the best bargain in high end: the Trans-Fi Terminator air bearing tonearm. I use one on my conventional belt drive TT, and another one on my more exotic air bearing TT. My opinion is that until you have heard an air bearing TT, you haven't really heard vinyl.

Yikes! I just posted this "poll" merely as a "food for thought" item! It's certainly elicited a variety of interesting replies, all of which are appreciated.

I've been acquiring vinyl records since ~1965 and I'm relatively (more-or-less) happy with my current setup. On the other hand, high-end equipment and/or financial donations will be sincerely welcomed; gratefully and individually acknowledged; and (even better still!) applied in-full by me to acquire your recommended and preferred system upgrade(s) :)

Kac, one step at a time. You either like vinyl or you do not. I’ll assume you do. First, toss the Sumiko and get something like a Lyra Kleos. Next get a SOTA Sapphire and a Kuzma 4 point 9.
you have just hit the point of diminishing returns. To do significantly better you will have to spend thousands more and this turntable will last you the rest of your life. Just enjoy a new cartridge once in a while. Then buy a lot more records:)

Money is only wasted if the resulting musical experience is perceived poorly.  If the experience is joyful who cares about recording and equipment perfection?

I guess it’s easy to make fun of people with - say - a $25k turntable (actually modest by today’s standards) and a few dozen ’audiophile’ reissues to play. It’s even more pathetic when you realize that many of those so called audiophile pressings don’t really sound very good at all. It’s money wasted.

At the other extreme there’s the so called ’serious’ record collectors crowd, who spend their days hunting down very expensive original pressings from the golden analog age and play them on some mediocre record player. This is money wasted as well. Those pressings deliver the best possible sound quality, but you will need the highest quality level turntable (and rest of the system, obviously) to bring that out.

So the only sensible cost/benefit ratio should be found in a well considered balance of the quality of the source material and the playback equipment. Makes sense?

yogiboy,
It has <<1500 hours. As for the possibility of changing it, it was only a passing fancy, set to maybe occur sometime in the far-distant future (if at all).
Thanks!KAC

If the cartridge has less than 1500 hours of use I doubt that you need to change anything!!

The VPI HW-19 Mk 2 has a Mørch UP-4 with a Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge, a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, a Classé DR-9 and Magnepan LRS speakers with Kimber and Nordost cables.

That older lead platter VPI that you have is an outstanding table. What arm and cartridge are you using with it?

Hello, again!
To clarify once more, my original posting was simply an abstract question open for discussion and opinion.

To rephrase it: I posed the question about factoring the size of an existing vinyl collection into the decision as to whether or not purchasing a high-end TT is "worthwhile", as opposed to keeping a more modest player. Seemingly, the answer is that the number of LPs is not germane to that decision

I'm not looking for any upgrades now or in the near-term future. If I were to personally upgrade anything for my vinyl system it might/maybe/potentially/possibly be the cartridge as I (correctly or not) think that component may provide the most "bang for the buck" assuming the rest of the system is reasonably good.
Thanks for your comments,KAC

I'll sell you my 301 for much less then that ;-)

Cost is all relative - balancing your means and what you value in life.  Cookie cutter assessments relative to self-reflective definitions of value only apply to you.  How much is too much to spend to nurture one's soul?

I don't think it is at all possible to come up with a "rational" estimate of this sort for any kind of purchase.  If you have only a few albums that you are crazy about, it might make sense, to you, to get a great table.  I would spend quite a bit even if I were forced to pare my collection down to something like my favorite 100 albums.  

As for the 301, the price for these refurbished tables is extremely high, given that you can still get the same table in reasonable condition on the used market for a lot less, but, in terms of performance, it is a competitive table when compared to modern high end tables.  If you value highly sound that is  dynamic and punchy, and you are forgiving of some noise, it is a better selection than a lot of expensive belt drive tables.  I own an expensive belt drive table, but, I can see the appeal of top notch idlers like the Garrards, Thorens 124 and Lenco tables.

The bad news for owners of vintage 301 and 401 tables is that the newly manufactured replacement parts that use to come from Loricraft will no longer be available except to those who own the "new" (actually refurbished) tables.  It is time to scour the market for motor bushings and rubber motor mounts, etc.

I'd love to own Garrard 301 (in Hammertone finishing only), it's a masterpiece of design in my opinion, but the price is absolutely insane! A good plinth will double the price. Fully restored units goes for crazy money compared to many killer vintage turntables on the market, some of them are still underrated and goes for reasonable cost even in mint condition. Taking in count all the hype about Garrard 301 i doubt it's justified its price today. So many turntables to choose and i'm sure anyone can find a truly high-end machine under $3k (complete). I'm totally satisfied with a pair of Luxman PD-444 and to my eyes this is the best design, so i'm happy. Was it reviewed by the Stereophile ? Never! They may never heard of it and never tried it. I always doubt in authority of these people, some amazing products has never been on their radar while so many forum members use those less known products and raving about it. 

Again, the argument about the price has nothing to do with reality. Why some new ugly turntables cost $20k+ ? I have no idea. In my world old Denon, Technics, Luxman, Victor... rules. All of them are direct drive btw. Everything from UK was twice as much in price, always, even records,  especially when the exchange rate of the pound was strong. So the Garrard is a typical example of over-hyped and overpriced unit from UK. I like how it looks, but come on ... 

I never completely understood the hype about audiophile pressing, the choice of music is limited, the price is high and it's all reissues. I always thought the real passion is good original pressings. 

What the hell does the number of records have to do with it? You have 20 records you loved enough to buy but you don't love them enough to want to hear them sound even better? But if you have 100,000 crappy dirty scratched up records of no-hit wonders you'd never in your life play for yourself let alone anyone else suddenly this justifies a $30k rig? Are you kidding me?

And don't try to hide behind "crappy scratched up", you know what I mean. You either have records you love and want them to sound better, or you don't. You either want to hear the music you love sound as good as it can, or you just want to hear a lot of different music and the hell with how good it sounds.

I have now at least half a dozen White Hot Stampers. A cheap one might be under $100, if you're lucky, but anything really desirable can run $300 or more. By your logic I would have to play each one 100,000 times to be worth owning. Sorry if that sounds stupid, it is. But its your logic NOT MINE!

Mine is: you love it, its worth it. You don't, it's not. My system, every bit of it, totally worth it. Yours... is yours.

What Dan said. My AudioGrail 401 in a slate plinth with a new steel idler, new heavier platter, and oversize bearing cost about $4200 (+ 2 tonearms) and would trash that SME for less than a quarter of their asking price. To answer your question on number of albums... When your rig sounds this good, you will start collecting records, scouring used record stores for great 60s recordings, and have a good number in years to come.

Why don't you look into buying a 301 or 401 Garrard table, having it serviced, get a plinth made, put an arm and cartridge on it, and enjoy? That's what I did some years ago, and I am very content.

With everything needed to get back into vinyl, my cost was under $5000. Still quite a bit of money, but you get generally what you pay for. I certainly did. You can have a look on my Virtual System. I believe it has been very cost effective for the sound quality I get with it. I agree, $23,000 is ridiculous, unless you have money to burn.

Regards,
Dan

I don't think that's even a consideration.  I spent $10k on table with 0 vinyl because I wanted to get back into vinyl - grew up listening to vinyl.  Now I have a 100 or so albums and just upgraded my turntable to the Kuzma Stabi R with the 4P tonearm. Honestly, I don't imagine myself owning 800 albums - i'll buy a couple of albums/month and that'll quench my vinyl thirst and I'll listen to hi-res streaming for the rest. This hobby does not support cost-benefit.

dweller,
Perhaps you misapprehended my comment. I am an avid vinyl listener and I'm perfectly content with my present system. My LPs have accumulated over quite a few years.

I posted this comment simply as a point of discussion. It was prompted by both the 301 review and the recent TT acquisition by a friend, as I explained.

To further qualify: if I had $24k in easily disposable funds at hand, I still couldn't rationalize that sort of purchase. In short, the cost:benefit calculation doesn't work for me, regardless of circumstances. I'm just curious about what others think.

800 LPs is not a "modest" collection. The question is: How often will you listen to vinyl? Don’t use the fallacious argument: "If I buy the new turntable, I’ll listen much more than I do now...". How often do you listen now? I have a VPI Classic II and have listened once in the last 12 months. Should I buy a new turntable?