I’ve seen some folks using Tube Preamps with Solid State Am ps. I’m thinking of doing that with my system as part of an incremental change. I currently have a Parasound P5 preamp with a Parasound A21 driving Klipsch Cornwall 4’s. Will a decent / good Tube Preamp really make a difference in my sound? I enjoy what I have now but really want to experience Tubes in my system. Thanks!
I've done it with both a Copland CTA-301 and a Copland CTA-305, and later a Quad QC-24 pre-amp feeding a YBA-1 power amp. It's fine, better than an SS pre-amp in my view. But it doesn't sound like tubes. Eh? What do I mean?
Well, I find a tube pre-amp gives me more of the sound—more nuance, more musicality and more rhythm. It's all there whichever power amp I use. But tube power amps add that extra tube sound (yes, maybe distortion, maybe not) that I prefer. At the end of the day, you go ahead and listen to what you enjoy the most and ignore what the rest of us say. The listening is the important part!
I have two setups. For most music I use a straight Odyssey Audio system. Khartago SS monos, Candela tube pre, and Kismet Reference floor standers. The SS + tube pre is everything I want. I’ll spare you the colorful adjectives to describe the sound. I thought I had experienced good system synergy in the past. And then I listened to the Odyssey system. I listened before learning the price. I almost didn’t believe it. My other setup is Emotiva Stealth 8 active monitors for super accurate, fast and crisp listening (electronic/heavily engineered music). They’re so good. Sometimes I add the tube pre for some sparkle to the sound. I like the way AMTs sound with tube gear.
Edit: forgot to mention that I’ll pull out the Willsenton R8 from time to time. I like it best with the Klipsch. I lose a little something when I use it with low efficiency speakers.
Using a VTL 5.5 series 1 pure tube preamp and dual 120 watt monoblocks from Odyssey, with a 150 watt B&W sub running Klipsch reference speakers with a tube Jolida CD player. The bass is phenomenal, low end to the point of foundation shaking, thumbing, with very rich mid-bass. The tube preamp opens up the richness of the music. The VTL reduces the harsh CD sound, eliminates the compressed sound. Jazz bass, classical music chelo and double bass is rich full and very present whereas the solid state preamp failed misabarley. I used a Acurus preamp for years, it was quiet and clear as a bell, but sounded compressed. Solid state monoblock rock the bass huge. The owner of Odyssey said flat out that these mono blocks are made for a tube preamplifier. Man this system is so rich , just love it. It is very difficult for a system to replicate a symphony orchestra, but this system does a great in doing so.
I upgraded to a Tim De Paravicini EAR 868 preamp this year. An older classic tube design. I gave it some thought and came to the conclusion that newer does not always mean better. This was a very wise decision. Some things in audio seem to have a quality that is timeless.
Yes. It’s a great appetizer. Gets you there part of the way in hybrid fashion if you love the sound of tubes. For me, it was not quite the full coarse meal. While I enjoyed running my 6SN7 triode based preamplifier with my class A/AB solid state amps, I went back. Eventually the SS amp got replaced too.
I've been using a tube preamp with solid state amps for quite a while now. My system is a mix of hi fi and pro sound gear. I modified a peavey project one stack. I replaced the tweeter driver with a selenium compression horn driver and Celestion drivers for the mid horn cabinet and Focal polyglass drivers in the horn loaded bass cabinets. I got rid of the crossovers and switched to a dbx driverack pa+ electronic crossover. The speakers are now tri amped with yamaha digital p7000s amps. The tube preamp is a dared class a sl2000a model with Brimar rectifier and various 12at7 tubes. I primarily use an Amazon fire TV cube coupled with a hdmi audio extractor. This way I can ship the hdmi video signal to a DVDO hd50 pro scaler and then to the projector. I use a transparent audio power cord on the tube preamp as well as all the yamaha power amps. I'm running balanced interconnects to the crossover and amps. I had to make my own converted balanced cables from the rca outputs on the preamp. From there I had to figure out the gain structure of the system in setting up the crossover. I'm also running a pair of tc sounds 15 inch subs in stereo configuration. I'm using an audio control phase coupled activator as the crossover for those. All the speaker wire is analysis plus. I'm leaving out more Information but I've probably bored you guys already.
I had a P5, it was a lot better than their P3, but... anyway, the lines between tube and SS kit has long been blurred I replaced my P5 with an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 and later added their PS5 outboard power supply, which is a HUGE improvement
In my system, until last year, I had the Spectral Dmc 30 SL pre-amp with Spectral Dma 360 s2 monoblocks power amplifiers with Mit Matrix HD 38 signal cable and Mit Oracle Matrix HD 90 power cables (the rest of the system includes CD Player Spectral Sdr 4000 Pro, turntable Linn Lp12 Klimax and JM Lab Utopia speaker (first edition) .
I then tried the Audio Research Ref. 3 preamp and immediately sold the Spectral preamp.
The Audio Research Ref. 3 preamp with Spectral power amplifiers is immensely better.
I have the LTA microzotl preamp, with recent modifications by LTA, feeding into a Sanders magtech powering Martin Logan Montis loudspeakers. A match made in heaven!
I know this is an old-ish thread, but I wanted to add my $.02. As someone who listens to vinyl 99+% of the time, a tube pre with a SS amp is wonderful. You can do this on a small (audiophile) budget as well if you are willing and able to modify your equipment. I highly recommend a modded Jolida JD9. I have the original, which I modded myself by replacing the op amps, caps, and tubes (Gold Lion), and adding damping material throughout. If you can find one used, this can all be done for less than $600 and will easily compete with preamps $2K+. I run this through a stock Yamaha A-S500 amp (very modestly priced), and my sound never fails to blow people away. I agree with some other commenters here, that this combination gives you the best of both worlds. Though I haven’t had the pleasure of hearing super high end (expensive) setups, this combo blows away any all-tube or all-SS setup I’ve ever heard. Of course, ymmv. Cheers. Full disclosure - I do have a lot more cash invested in my speakers and deck...
Well thanks to this thread I am ending up with a Tube PreAmp/DAC/Headphone with remote & a Solid State Class A/B amplifier & both units together are barely as big as an all in one...
Tonight I hooked up my ss Jeff Rowland to match up with my CAT SL1 5000 series. The tube preamp is always, at least in my systems, the heart of the system. When I want a little sweeter sound and with slightly more depth, then I utilize my tube mono blocks, when I want instant on and a very precise overall musicality, then the ss amp is there. Different flavors, BUT the tube preamp is always at the heart. IME, a ss preamp just isn't going to give you the same musicality and palpability. Same thing goes for a ss phono preamp vs a tube phono preamp. Which is why I use a tube phono preamp ( part of the CAT).
As you have Klipsch, I'd recommend keep your P5 and try swapping out your A21 with a tube amp. I tried tube pre/ss amp a long time ago (Audible Illusions+Exposure) and really liked it, but practical considerations in integrating HT with my stereo setup kept me with SS pre/pro. I recently moved to Rogue amplification, and have never looked back. Audition a tube amp and see how you like the sound.
That's exactly how I set up my system and I like it. I was doing so much streaming that I thought a tube preamp would add the right dimension and it has. I read about the Prima Luna Dialogue for a few years and finally added it to a pair of SS amps. The result is great. Only drawback is you can leave the SS amps on all the time but you have to switch them off when you turn on the tube preamp but that's the only drawback I've experienced over the years.
I been running a tube pre (mullards) and a class D PS audio amp for years. Has a great sweet spot at moderate levels but the punch can be fatiguing at higher levels. Been considering trying a class A/B power. Love how cool the Class D runs.
Love my combination of Parasound A21 + Backert Labs Rhumba 1.3 which is a tube preamp. The resolution, soundstage width/depth and impacts are stunning!
I also have a Parasound A21 amp and I'm running a Jolida Fusion DAC preamp. It's a great combination. The soundstage is really lifelike. I'm running Meadowlark Kestrals. I got the factory upgrade option from Jolida. I run digital music exclusively, either through Bluetooth or using my PC as a source over the USB cable. I am running the balanced XLR connection between the two. I am completely happy with this system.
I'm also searching but I also need XLR inputs on a tubed line stage/preamp as my Nagra MPA has only XLR's. I don't want a transformer/adapter XLR-RCA. Any suggestions? Speakers are Wilson Sabrinas, only digital source. thx
People with high sensitivity speakers might be shocked by how good they can sound with a really good tube preamp like a Supratek driving a really cheap gainclone type chip amp.
At the risk of coming off as boorish, isnt this the great conundrum we face? We want that elusive perfect sound. That 'is it live or is it memorex' moment. But, anytime we approach that perfect mix, we will find imperfections. Live music is 'perfect' as it is played/heard as it is performed. Once it is is placed on a media platform, we require playback. The playback, obviously, will introduce imperfections. Each piece of equipment will add its own coloring to the music path. Although we all want the 'straight wire with gain' nirvana, unless a piece of equipment is made 'by the gods', human beings will introduce their own influence in terms of design decisions, material choice, transfer functions. As much as we talk about the benefits of SS vs tube, harshness vs silkiness, etc., doesnt it all come down to enjoying the music?
All my systems since 1992 featured a tube preamp with a solid state amp. To me it just sounds right.
are you sure, the tube sonics/nuances are not being canceled out as they run through ss components? Preamps make a dif in how a amp sounds, I've tried at lesat 5 tube pre amps with my Defy and each one carried a dif signature stamp. The most expensive of the 5 was not my fav. Which surprised me, as the design/components is just stunning, and hefty at 50 lbs. But oddly enough the sound was <not> what i was looking for. The sound seemed <twisted/contorted> as it came out the amp/speakers.. I was sure it was a keeper at time of purchase. Bottom line, if you finda musical pre/tube, and push it through a ss design,,,not sure if the end result of locatinga great muiscal tube pre, was worth the effort. = the ss IMHO will <short circuit> (= mangle/distort) the beautuful tube pre sonics. Just my 2 cents. p new orleans
Wow, there’s definitely a ton of good suggestions here. Perhaps an all Tube set up would be a good idea because my Parasound Amp drives those Cornwalls to insane levels with barely a turn of the Volume knob. However I tend to listen at mid to high levels as I listen to a lot of live music and this current system really can make me feel that live experience.
I have a small and challenging room set up where my Stereo is in one small section of my downstairs family room With no real options to move things around. So having that extra oompf from the A21 seems to deal nicely with any effects from my listening area.
Primaluna was my initial thoughts but I’m intrigued by the Raven Audio gear as well now after reading a bit more into them. Ahhh what to do, what to do lol
BigJohn 9095- I currently have a MicroZOTL mz2 mated with a Pass Labs XA-25 and couldn't be happier! The mz2 uses 12AT7/6201 input, 6SN7 or 12SN7 output. There are several reviews on the MicroZOTL, Herb Reichert, Teajay and the guy from New Record Day.. can't think of his name. I had tried a Supratek Sauvignon and an Audio Research LS-3 and this little sucker blew both of those preamps out of the water. Nice air and transparency with good articulate bass. I purchased refurbished one with a remote for $1725.00 from LTA. If you have efficient speakers, its 1 watt is kind of fun to listen to.
Preamps are Primaluna Dialogue and Mac C33. Amps are First Watt SIT-3 and Cary SLA70 (EL34s). Speakers are Klipsch Belle with new Bob Crites crossovers/tweeters and Zu Omen Dirty Weekends. The ss-tube, tube-ss, tube-tube and ss-ss combinations are a lot of fun to explore with various genres and sources of music. My favorite is live jazz (e.g. Jazz at the Pawnshop) with the PrimaLuna, First Watt and Belles. Also have an SVS sub when I want to raise the roof.
Hi John,Over the years, I've tried all sorts of systems, all tubes was very good, solid state was also very good. I think it depends on the quality of your equipment and your room and importantly on the music you enjoy. I don't think there is any one right way. Right now I use a solid state Amp, a McIntosh MC452 and a McIntosh tube pre C2600. Try what appeals to you, just be sure to buy from a dealer that has a good return policy.Enjoy the music.Joe
Yesterday I went to a local dealer to hear the Primaluna Evo 400 integrated after reading many reviews on tube amps. I have never had nor heard an audio tube amp. Having played guitar for years, I had expected the difference in sound to be as noticeable with audio amps, and hear the three dimensional effect described and the same I hear with my guitar amps. Sadly I was not hearing anything g special whatsoever, it was just sound coming from the speakers. Not bad sound, but nothing special in any way, and certainly not a tube sound as I was expecting. So I asked to hear what else they had. Next was an Ocatve 70 series integrated. I did notice the soundstage seemed to come forward and create a bit of a wall at about the from of the speakers. I liked the difference over the Primaluna, but other than this, again, nothing special. Next they had the McIntosh MA352, a hybrid with tube preamp and solid state amp stage. This sounded much clearer, as if you removed a towel you had blanketed over the speakers with the previous amps, by comparison. There was a sense of greater power behind every note as well, and much lower background levels. I could hear much more detail than the all tube amps, and there was just no comparison. I was listening on a pair of stand mount Sonus Faders at the start, then another customer came that was wanting to hear the Klipsch Heresy IV. ( I preferred the Sonus Fabers and the other client did seem to like them as well) i had been listening to classic rock, and he asked for some Miles Davis. I noticed with the Mac that the highs were very forward on this piece, and when we listened with the Primaluna that was more balanced. The Mac does have an eq, though we did not adjust it to see the difference. The other client thought the Primaluna sounded special, which I at no point felt that way. Just goes to show that only your ears can tell you the story. I ordered the MA352 in the end, remembering the thoughts in this thread about tube preamps and ss amps. The Mac can later be used as just a preamp with other amps should I chose. One thing I know little about though, would nos tubes improve things in the preamp.
If I had those speakers,I would go full tube. I run a tube pre and a high current solid state amp because I own Magneplanars.You simply don't need much power at all to run Klipsch. There are probably tons of suggestions out there for great matches, and I wouldn't be surprised if many with that speaker run tube intergrated amps with 10 watts, if not less. The quality of the amp and the tubes will be paramount, not the wattage.
aberyclark So you want to tailor (synonym: improve to your ear) your system's sound. I have a tube/SS rig: a vintage Parasound HCA-750A amp with adjustable volume controls on the rear (75w/CH 8 ohms) running thru a little gem of a line level preamp (3rd owner; which I have for over 10 years now; supposedly only 10 hand-made) by Dave Wolze, an electrical designer in Calif, back in the early 2000s (says his partner withdrew, and it crushed his dream of production; his phono preamp appears to have been highly regarded as a kit). Speakers are giant 2-way bookshelf (?) JBL (funky cabinet) L25 PRIMO - AND THEY ROCK WITH THIS COMBO (CD only,tighhntly...) AND CAN PLAY LOUD MAN!!! (example Bohemian Raposody - We Will Rock You) I'd suggest that in looking for a tube pre - the complement of at least 2 -12AX7s and 2-EF86 tubes is a good start... AS A COMPARISON: My Main System is a relatively new MONOPRICE INTEGRATED TUBE AMP (using Pre-outs and Main-ins) with a vintage YAMAHA discontinued HTA-5550 ( 75w/ch 8 ohms) into what I consider a great pair of sleeper bookshelf speakers - KEF Q1s! I am an extremely cost conscious audiophile (if I say so myself) and find as much challenge in sound improvement by science (understanding) and experimentation as enjoying the listening experience ( including the plethora of music, or so-called music, choices available) but my funds are very tight, so I continue to learn, try and keep what pans out... Try something cheap like the MONOPRICE Integrated with Pre-outs - probably about $150 or so, and see if you like the flexibility/change... OR GET A VINTAGE MORRISON ELAD - and find out what your system really sounds like with a "Straight Wire with Gain"... NO MATTER WHAT: ENJOY YOUR EFFORTS! Best Wishes. Bill
The Schiit Freya preamp (now the Freya +) allows instant switching between tubes and 2 other modes so you can see what's what regarding the tubes, and the tubes sound snappier, more detailed, and provide what I take as a more accurate presentation...my older version is very quiet and amazingly well made and sounds fabulous. The lack of "crossover" distortion and transistor harshness is gone of course from my single ended pentode power amp, the result being a more accurate musical presentation. Nothing "euphonic" or "smoothing", simply detailed down to about 58hz where my 2 under stressed SS RELs take over.
After growing my audiophile hobby with a fair amount of SS gear, I too finally decided to go the tube route... because of the music I listen to, and the relatively small size of my listening space... I don't tend to listen at high volume, but wanted to get an "enveloping" sound.
I was getting set to pull the trigger on a Prima Luna integrated, and surely wouldn't have regretted it if I went that route... but wanting to also invest in a much better streamer, I realized my budget was taking a beating...
Then I heard about the Heaven11 Billy amp, and really fell for the simple form factor, and the swiss-army knife approach to having a lot of input options and built in DAC. With tube pre and ICE D-class amplification, it really works paired with my Sonus Faber Signums to bring both detail and warmth. With the savings the Heaven11 brought, I could afford a used Lumin D1, which was really the missing piece to the puzzle.
I’m running a Manley Shrimp with a McIntosh MC-352 and the sound is wide and open. To my ears sounded better than my Mac SS pre. I have alway enjoyed a tubed pre and SS amps. I also run it through a Primaluna Dialogue HP tube amp. Those amps are wonderful sounding.
Haven’t heard from the OP for awhile. Fairly safe to presume that the Parasound gear predated the 4th iteration of the Cornwall in your system. I am by no means knocking Parasound, as I think they manufacture well-engineered solid state gear for a fair price. While I think a tube preamp with solid state is a great combination for most systems, I am not sure it is for the Cornwall. Dick Olsher famously remarked that “the first watt is the most important watt”. You will likely listen to no more than 1 watt with that speaker in a small to medium sized room, so it better be a good one, or the other 249 in the case of the A21 are a waste. Do yourself a favor and either use the A21 for a second system (driving an inexpensive inefficient bookshelf speaker perhaps), or sell/trade it. Get yourself a flea watt single ended DHT (2A3/300B/845) amp and find out what Olsher meant and what you’re missing.
About 1 year ago I traded in my Parasound P5 on a Prima Luna Evo 400 preamp. Paired with my BHK 250 amp, the sound is fantastic. I run it balanced and it is dead silent. Great bass slam, a wider and deeper soundstage, and a very black background. Plus it's built like a tank. Tube rolling is fun but can be expensive. However, just changing the two front driver tubes will let you adjust the sound to your taste for not a lot of money. I would definitely go with NOS tubes. Just have fun whatever you do and always remember it's all about the music.
Amen to a SS amp and tube preamp. To my ears, the reason for a tube preamp is its rounded sound seems more natural and the soundstage is deeper than I have found with all solid state. As for the power amp, SS amps seem faster to me. I have also owned all tube systems and hybrid amps, but the tube/SS combo seems most satisfying. I first discovered this combo with an Audio Research Reference 3 preamp and a McIntosh MC150 power amp feeding Sonus Faber Cremona Ms--the most musical system I have ever owned. Uncanny three dimensional imagery and a musically engaging presentation that was addictive. I now have a Schitt Freya+ feeding a McIntosh MC122 and Tannoy Revolution XT8F speakers. The Schitt does have some hiss at idle through the 91dB efficient Tannoys, but it is inaudible with music playing. Otherwise the Freya+ is astounding: solid placement of instruments in three-dimensional space is downright startling at first; it has little "tube warmth" (maybe even too little?) though I'm after a more neutral sound. Klipsch speakers are different animals than the speakers I've owned so I couldn't say what might be best, but trying the Schitt with their 15 day trial would certainly be worth the effort.
Autocorrect euphoric ended up euphoric. And one more thing for jji666 (?Lucifer), I wasn’t sharing my gear and difficult audiophile journey to brandish my wares, but just offer my experience. So speak for yourself.
If you haven’t already, you should check out the Klipsch forum. I think that many who purchase high efficiency speakers do so because they highly value dynamics in the musical presentation, and they want to use them with SET amps. Klipsch and tubes are a magical combination. I remember visiting an audio store in the 70s and being blown away listening to a Sheffield Track record on a system with McIntosh tube gear and Klipschorns. Solid state amps with Klipsch speakers can be quite good, especially with a warmer presentation offered by the likes of NAD or Parasound that takes some of the edge off an otherwise strident fatiguing treble. But most Klipsch Heritage line 2 channel systems I am quite certain are being driven by a tube amp. If you decide to experiment with a tube preamp, I would suggest a used Audio Research preamp with a more euphoric sound rather than something like C-J with coloration, given that your Parasound amp is already on the warm side. I think you are wise however to try out a low wattage tube amp that can be a relatively low cost experiment (e.g., Decware, Coincident, Bottlehead if you have DIY leanings).
Your needs and equipment sound very familiar.
I am very familiar with the Parasound A21.
I prefer the A21 for reasons I can't fully explain and its been my champion amp since 2016. I had cycled thru a few different combinations of solid state & tube models .
For my current budget, nothing has beaten it yet. As for SS preamps , I have tried the Parasound PHP 850(old!), P3(ditto), and New Classic 2100 pre-amps with varying levels of success in achieving the "low volume / full frequency, deep sound field" that I have always sought for my own ears. During this time I experimented with the half step tube buffer options
(IFi Tube2 and Jolida SSX )
and eventually settled on keeping them in the signal chain full time. They run between my source (Cary DMS 500 DAC/Streamer) and pre. Both buffers added some of that additional space mentioned earlier but were not enough alone to fully engage my ears. At my level of investment-SS preamps simply lacked these same factors to fully fill in the space of my listening room.But then the day arrived of trying my first tube preamp. The Vincent SA-1 finally ended the journey. The combination of the A21 and the Vincent is as close to what I can afford and be able to live with on a day to day basis. The only thing that comes close to that is the Vincent SV-237 integrated (again a SS/Tube hybrid) in my second system. I did do some limited experimentation with tube amps. No matter the pre -the Prima Luna Prologue, which was a beautiful and well built amp , just lacked the low volume oomph on the low end. And for those of us in the desert Southwest, it also added an unnecessary amount of warmth to my already toasty room. And whenever a tube amp was in the equation it always-even at low volume- transmitted extra noise and hiss thru my ZU OMEN towers. Now this works for me and is not perfect! I realize a larger investment may change the game. As I listen mostly at low levels and I enthusiastically utilize loudness and tone controls, I do run into some issues when my volume occasionally goes past 8:00 O Clock! ( This is the portion of the program when somebody will pipe in on a impedance mismatch or a need to throttle down the Parasound's gain for more useful scale from my pre). Anyway hope that helps for perspective.
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