That's very interesting, Carey1110.
I never had the pleasure of hearing an all-Spectral system. However, I did once own a Spectral preamp and my memory of it was anything but "tube like."
Thanks for your input and emphasizing that it needs to be a Spectral system, throughout. |
Spectral does it for me. However it must be a complete system. I have enjoyed full tube system for decades until I finally broke down and did the whole Spectral/ MIT system. Really enjoy it, especially with analog. |
I still listen to my unison 845 integrated,but when it comes to solid state I listen to my YBA 600 power amp and my YBA 100 passion integrated very tube like sound. |
McCormack DNA 750 mono's. Owned everything. These sound like 30k. Never know in this game. |
|
Tubegroover,
Grannyring brought up an important point about differences in wire affecting
SS and Tube sound. No harm, no foul. A question was asked and
answered appropriately by Grannyring.
Do yourself a favor, buy this combo of wire. I bet you'll be selling your high
priced speaker/interconnect just as I did. You should read the Day Blog
thoroughly whether a SS or Tubegroover as I am.
Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the designer of a SS integrated (SPEC), reviewed
by Day at Positive Feedback is the gentleman who let everyone know
about this wire combination through Day's blog. Yazaki-san is also a major
300B Maven in Japan, both as designer and builder; he has a unique point
of view that just might get you closer to "real sound."
Grannyring, please start that other thread. Best all, Rob
Best, Rob |
2 Ayre V-5's and Vandersteen Model 2's. Wilson Cub's and a VAC 30/30. |
Hi Zd542
What Ayre and Vandersteen do you use? Also, what Wilson and VAC?
Thanks |
The OP didn't specify if his question was restricted to those switching from a tubed power amp, preamp or both. I previously owned a tube preamp which I ran with a ss power amp as I do like a little tube magic. The amp which struck the right balance for me between tube and ss virtues is my current amp; a Vitus SIA-025. Vitus class A amps sound quite unique as they are so pure and mellifluous, yet at the same time controlled and resolving. I have a sensitive ear, and Vitus is one of the few amps I can listen to for hours without fatigue. |
"07-20-15: Mikey8811
"07-19-15: Zd542
I use Ayre in my system and and think it sounds different than what your friends say"
What is your system? I tried searching your posts but couldn't work it out."
Sorry. I just saw your question. The point I was trying make was that even though your friends and I have different opinions on the same component, doesn't make either one of us right or wrong. Its just the nature of audio, especially when you are dealing with revealing components.
As for my system, I actually have 2. My main one is an Ayre Vandersteen combo, and my other I put together with some gear I had that wasn't in use. Its a Wilson/VAC combo. I can see why, if you were reading some of my other posts, it would be confusing to try figure out my system. |
To help get us back on track I will post on this wire in a new thread. I am finding the Lector VM200 hybrid amp to be very tube like. I know it has two signal tubes, but it does sound like a full-on tube output amp. |
I guess you lost me. The point of my post was " things to ponder" as related to the poster's question. I mentioned the wire in the context of how it can make one smile with its tube like sound. How it, wire, plays a role in the resulting sound of an amp and a system. Wire can certainly help an SS amp sound more tube like. I suggest this wire can help a good SS amp sound as such. It is on point and not unrelated in the least.
Perhaps you think I gave to much detail on this original post and that I can understand. |
No crime, plenty of turns, quite typical. Again, excellent post just that all subsequent posts since yours pertained to the wire, that all. YOU brought up the wire and its like having a conversation with someone about a topic and all of a sudden the subject is changed to something completely unrelated, certainly not unusual on this site. I get your excitement and think maybe you should start a thread. No foul no harm. |
I was asked a question on one of my comments that's all. I gave an answer.
As an aside, I do not buy into the notion of "hijacking" here. Right and left turns are common and just fine with me. No crime here, just normal and acceptable meandering in these threads. All good. |
So the tube amp lovers to ss thread ends up about wire? No offense Granny but why not start a thread about this wire at a buck 49 a foot? You've got me curious as well but I do believe that the thread has been officially hijacked.
Your contribution in your first post is excellent but how does wire come into play to the original question? In respect to the OP I think it needs to get back on topic, or at least a bit closer. |
Thanks Grannyring. I just ordered 32' of the black WE cable and they only had 31' so I bought that and will make do. Also bought a pair of the IC's to try out. Love these prices! We'll see how it sounds in my system. 😎 |
I ordered 64 ft of the 16gauge Western electric black from the 70's. Will order the Belden soon. This will be fun to see if it can better my Audio Note 86 stand Lexus. Thanks Grannyring! |
We all learned about the wire here;
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7469
Buy from EBay seller Tajacobs. He is trusted and good. Others may sell
fakes.
Here is a current EBay listing from him. I think it is a husband/wife team as
Teresa is the "T". I think one of them worked for WE for many years.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/per-ft-Western-Electric-AIW-16g-cloth-
STRANDED-RED-with-white-writng-/351450979396?
pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51d41c5c44
He also sells black cloth covered wire which is the same wire. Do not
terminate and just use the bare wire for best sound. I used two runs per
pole for best sound. One run is very good, but two gives more body and
bass and is perfect! I used a slight twist every 2 or so inches.
The Belden 8402 IC cable referred to in the blog is also a must Jet.
Combine the two for sonic magic. The tandem is sublime and easily bested
any high dollar wire I have owned.
Here is where to purchase the Belden cable. They will make a set to the
length you want and build them the exact way the famous amp builder from
Japan builds them as referred to in Jeff Day's blog. They take about 30
hours to break in and are natural and beautiful sounding. I know this wire is
all stranded and tinned, I usually run from both these attributes in wire. I
cannot explain it, but this wire destroyed my past notions and experiences
with stranded and tinned wire.
Mine are built with the shield connected on both ends as are Jeff Day's.
The result will make you smile big. They start off just a tad bright, but
quickly sound so natural and beautiful with the WE speaker wire.
http://btpa.com/IC8402-XX.html
One last point on the WE wire. Don't buy other WE wire thinking a thicker
gauge, solid core, or whatever version of WE you think may be better. The
16ga stranded is the wire that has been confirmed as special. Folks seem
to want to stray from proven performance and that is fine once you have
experienced the 16ga wire. I had to fight the impulse to use some other WE
14ga etc....
I had $2000 speaker cables that I loved and were and are special
sounding. It took me awhile to find them and they are very highly reviewed.
The WE wire easily bested them at $1.49 foot. Same with the ICs.
Jeff Day used the solid core silver in silk Sablon wire and now uses the
WE. My audio buddies have also sold off expensive cables for WE. I cannot
recall an audio experience as surprising as these two wires/cables. I am
still shaking my head wondering how the heck......
The thing is both of these wires are no longer made. Once these sellers are
out that is it! The WE wire is from the 70s and 80s and I am not sure about
the Belden.
The burn in time is not long, but they do need 25-30 hours to sound their
best. I also find when used together you get the magic! The sum of the two
is greater than the individual wire sonically. |
Grannyring, when I google "Western Electric 16 gauge NOS stranded and tinned" it comes up on eBay as "NOS Western Electric KS14GA RED Tinned copper stranded wire 6meter". Is this the wire you are buying? Thanks Jet |
All great points Granny. I assume what Paravicini means is he can build a SS amp that sounds just like any of HIS tube amps. Including how it interacts with it's input (source), and it's output load (loudspeakers)? Given the output impedance of power tubes I don't know how, but I'm not Tim! He's a pretty clever fellow, and I have no reason to doubt him. |
Each has it's strength and weaknesses so I have both. ARC Ref250 and Hegel H30. H30 is very very good but I prefer the ARC.
I guess due it's circuit, H30 doesn't sound dry like many SS plus DEAD quiet. Constellation also makes excellent SS amps. |
Most McCormack designs.
Coda amps.
Plinius SA-102.
Shakey |
Well, I still have my tube amps but if I need a SS change of pace, I insert a McCormack DNA-1 into the system. It paired well with a pair of Vandersteen 3A's (since sold), a pair of Snell Type J II's and my Altec 846A Valencia's. |
Well here are some things to ponder on this subject. Not all tube amps
sound like, well tube amps. What does a tube amp sound like? PP amp?
SET amp? DHT amp? parallel SET amp? No Negative feedback? Lots of
NF? Who designed it? What type of tubes does it use? Solid state or tube
rectified? Is it tube regulated? OTL amp? SS voltage regulated?
I think you get the point. They will all sound very different. SS amps also
come in near countless design forms. They all sound very different from
each other.
Also, we have to consider the fact that an amp makes no sound or music
on its own. To make music it must be part of a complete system. The amp
to speaker synergy plays a huge role. Preamp to amp synergy is also
important. The near countless combinations of these system pieces all
create differing sound. Certainly some complete system combinations
sound radically different then the very same amp would sound in another
system with a different set of accompanying components.
Oh my, I haven't even begun to unpack all the factors influencing the net
sound of a system and wether it sounds tube like or SS like........if one
thinks there is even such a thing. I am not sure there is based on my
experience with a host of amps over the years. I have certainly owned SS
amps and hybrid amps that sound very similar to some PP tube amps I
have owned. At least in the context of a static set of associated system
gear.
One final point. I recently became aware of wire that has incredibly
beautiful tone and a stunning 3D reach out and touch the performance
papability to it. I now use it as my speaker cable, internal speaker wire,
crossover wire and internal amp wire. To many on this thread that feel they
know and love the tube sound, this wire will make you smile big. Very big.
I am using it with a DHT 845 tube amp as well as a Lector Hybrid amp. I
can confidently tell you with the Lector amp in the system I am getting the
type of performance most would attribute to a full-on complete tube system.
However, the whole system only has two small signal tubes located in the
hybrid amp!
My point, wire also makes a difference in delivering the resulting sound and
wether it leans to a tube amp or SS sound for those who believe in such a
thing. The wire is Western Electric 16 gauge NOS stranded and tinned.
Only $1.49 a foot and so very special. Yeah, this wire has that DHT tube
sound. In my audio circles this wire is completely changing the way Aphiles
look at high end cabling. All have sold their high dollar wire and improved
their system's sound with this wire. Just a little tip to those open minded
enough to go there! |
Tim Paravicini (EAR-Yoshino) claims he can use either technology to achieve the same sound, but makes primarily tube products for marketing reasons (he does offer a few SS pieces). I don't know---it seems like he could sell a lot of tube-sounding solid state amps and pre-amps. |
Bel Canto ref1000m, Bel Canto C5i integrated, Tube Audio Design 125 Hibachi.
I like the sound of many tube amps but not having to deal with tubes so I do not have any tube amps. These are models I own or have owned recently that have succeeded in keeping me off of tubes. I could see owning a SET someday to get a pure taste of tube amp sound with not many tubes.
I find I love good sound in general. What technology is used to make it matters to me in other ways, like TCO, amount of maintenance required, power consumption, etc. So no tube amps for me so far.
The C5i is a wonderful design and does it all simply and efficiently. Within its 60 w/ch limitations of course. Its a simple joy to both set up and use. Just add speakers and a digital or analog source or two and most people would be done for a long time. |
Expecting SS amps to sound like tubes could be due to the incessant use of the term "tube like" in the hype chosen by many SS amp manufacturers…actual tube circuits just have that "tubey thing" which has been described frequently by tubers (like me, and the peanut family of plants), and having experienced tube hifi as far back as the mid 60s I can safely say SS has obviously made its place as a more powerful (generally) and reliable (sometimes) thing. I heard a First Watt amp in a friend's system and it did seem to have some sonic warmth that was appealing as Pass is clearly a great designer…and listener…but certainly if you want "Bang for the Hifi Buck" you can't go wrong with tubes…unless you don't want the hastle of tubes…in which case many thousands of brands of SS amps obviously can sound fine. Just not so tubey... |
Tubegroover wrote:
"Ps your example with the NAD underscores Minorl's point of accurately driving the speakers. My bet is that the NAD is more electrically compatible with the MMGs than your tube amps. One can often be surprised by results that are totally unexpected. I'm not at all surprised by that result with Magenapan speakers UNLESS you are using high powered tube monoblocks."
Yes, this seems to be the case. The modest NAD amp is indeed a better match with the MMGs. A very pleasant surprise!
The MFA amps are rated @120 WPC into 8 ohms and I run 4 KT-88's Rubys in each. The Rubys are not as "punchy" as the last power tubes I used in the amps, Genalex Gold Lions, so perhaps the Gennies would be significantly better than the Rubys w/ the MMGs, but I sort of doubt it.
The tube amps sound glorious with my Sonus Faber Liuto monitors. I've yet to run the SF off the NAD because I'm enjoying the MMG's so much. If I had the budget, I'd love to try the MMG's with, say, a pair of Odyssey Stratos monos, for example. :) But it's highly unlikely I would ever sell my tube amps to finance that sort of move.
At any rate, I don't want to derail this thread, but clearly there is room in this tube lover's home for an SS amp, especially one that mates well with my Lumi preamp. |
^^ yes we say funny things because we have a sense of humor. |
Any tube amp lover can make me smile or sometimes laugh. |
Ps your example with the NAD underscores Minorl's point of accurately driving the speakers. My bet is that the NAD is more electrically compatible with the MMGs than your tube amps. One can often be surprised by results that are totally unexpected. I'm not at all surprised by that result with Magenapan speakers UNLESS you are using high powered tube monoblocks. |
Symphonic Line Kraft 300 monoblocks. I have not "moved on" from tubes, as I still have my CAT JL-1 monos, but the SL Kraft monos require less care and feeding than the CATs. |
Go over to the Dark Side? Not me.
Transistors began what digital completed ... the ruination of reproduced music in the home. Meh! |
I don't think I could ever give up my tube amps (TRL GT 200's) but if I was forced to for some unknown bizarro reason (like ???) I agree that a hybrid such as the big Lamm monos would be the best bet for me...I've heard them sound very impressive in a super revealing system.
Another friend has a lot of Pass Labs and it's all quite good but even if it doesn't scream SS like many can...it still "Whispers":'I AM still SS you know' and I can always hear it.
Haven't heard all the hyper expensive SS stuff such as T&A, Constellation, BALabao, etc. but for their price points I'd like to think they're remarkably 'satisfying'...
Personally at this point in time I don't see how SS can really replicate the tangible/lifelike character of a performance that a great tube amp can. Again, just my .02.
Happy Lissn'n |
First: I think Minorl's comments are spot on.
Now, to my recent experience. For many years I've been running an all-tube system using upgraded MFA electronics. For those who are familiar with MFA, you know what I'm talking about.
The other day, on a whim, I purchased an NAD C272 power amp. In my system, mated with the Lumi preamp, the NAD is shockingly good. In some ways it's a better match with the Magnepan MMG's than my mono tube amps. Bass is cleaner and more articulate, and the speakers sound more "detailed". No, the NAD is not as 3-D nor "sweet" as the tube amps, but I'm blown away at how good it sounds. I was running a pair of small subs with the tube amps and disconnected them with the NAD because of the dramatic improvement in the bass.
And, FIY, both of the mono amps have been completely re-tubed recently.
In short, for just a few hundred bux, far less than a complete set of NOS amp tubes, the NAD has put a broad smile on my face. |
Tubes to First Watt M2 (Pass)…sublime. |
Electrocompaniet mono-blocks - have had 25 amps and like these very much.
Smooth, yet authoritative. No SS glare, no roll-off, no loose bass. |
I like my Odyssey Khartargo Mono Blocks, and my VTL ST 85 tube amp, they both sound good. |
There are many, many solid state amps that gave me the same musicality and kept me smiling. Too many to list. There are some absolutely wonderful solid state amps out there and some absolutely wonderful tube amps out there. A good designer/engineer is a good designer/engineer.
This tube vs solid state bias/arguments is really not the issue.
Does the music reproduction in your system sound as really as you can get/afford? Is there any listening fatigue? Does something drive you away from listening?
Or are you just sitting there for hours, smiling and enjoying the sound? Some people are too much into equipment and not the actual sound.
The speakers are a big factor in this solid state vs tube debate also. Ability to drive accurately the speakers is very important.
So many factors. I know many people that have tried tube amps and can't seem to get the impact from them that they get from SS amps. So, there!!
I also, know many people that absolutely love tube amps sound. So there!!
I'll take either. pick a price point. Pick specific speakers. Find tube amps and solid state amps that are designed to accurately drive those speakers. Play your favorite, revealing music and go at it. That and only that is the fair test. One may still prefer one sound over another, but this is the only way to really judge. Oh and by the way, stop screwing around with biases and do the test blind.
enjoy the music and the long trip to get where you want to be. |
Great comments, everyone. Thank you.
Clearly, the consensus is what I expected. |
"the last one I played before I went back to tubes" :) |
"07-19-15: Zd542
I use Ayre in my system and and think it sounds different than what your friends say"
What is your system? I tried searching your posts but couldn't work it out. |
Clarification to my post re the Hegel H200. I should have noted that I have not replaced tubed equipment with the Hegel. I still run and enjoy music using Consonance Cyber 800SEs (6CA7s) and an Opera Reference 50 (6H30s) pre-amp. However, for variety, I do switch to the H200 and find it has a sweet liquidity and dimensionality similar to hearing music with tube equipment. The Hegel is definitely a solid state amp that makes me smile. |
Agree with others concerning ss amps versus tube amps and the fact that no ss amp will sound like a tube amp. But for me Pass XA series is a wonderful alternative and without the tube maintenance issues. Although they do kick out a lot of heat being class A biased. And if you have ever had a tube amp blow it isn't pretty. |
Haven't moved on to D'Agostino, but will add it to my system when funds allow as an adjunct to (not replacement for) my ARC Ref 150 (w KT150 tubes). Love them both. |
I had a Pass 150.5, after experimenting with a Pathos
hybrid, which didn't have enough low end for me...The
Pass was fantastic, but hot and expensive to run; I am
now running a Bel Canto Ref500s which I enjoy
tremendously. It's paired up with a Cary tube Pre and
that seems to make for a very nice combo.
I loved my CJ MF2250. Sold it too soon... |
Pass XA-200.5's breathes magic in our high end rig - but they're still not the same as the Audio Research tube amplifiers we had.
I never could agree with the phase of a "SS amplifier sounding like a tube amplifier" - Pass included. |
Geoffkait, I personally don't want to buy any swampland in Florida but if you got any beachfront property in Arizona, I'm your taker. Anyhow not all, but some new tube amps sounds like very good solid state. Go figure, but there is some very good solid state amps out there including Conrad Johnson. |
"07-19-15: Mikey8811
I am considering Ayre but have heard reports that they sound lean compared to Pass or even the older class A Krells (which are by no means tubey sounding). Friends tell me the midrange is very natural sounding and clear but lacks body. True?"
There's really no way to answer that question. Everyone has different tastes, systems and rooms. At this level you can't rely on others opinions. You'll need to hear it for yourself. I use Ayre in my system and and think it sounds different than what your friends say. There's no right or wrong; just different opinions. |
What's wrong with you people? Nobody's heard of Symphonic Line? I was also a tube fanatic, till I've heard their RG line of amps. I've progressed from an RG1 to my current RG7 MK4. In my humble opinion, these gems have the resolution, soul and transparency very few tube amps can match. The ones that do will cost you very dearly. Honestly, they don't sound tubey nor transistory, they just sound like music. Turn them on and never turn them off. Been saving for the Kraft. Just my two cents. |
