I do find it amusing that people buy a cheap loudspeaker with a horn tweeter and then pronounce that they hate horns forever. Since they didn't even have a horn speaker in the 1st place just a horn driver and an extremely small sample rate to pronounce all horns bad. So to horn or not to horn sure horn but go fully horn-loaded or your not hearing what such systems are capable of. And not to horn if you just to buy some cheap speaker with a semi-horn tweeter.
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My apologies this post is way to long but you asked. This question fits me to a tee. Assumptions I've held for over forty years have been upended, stomped on and proven wrong. I was a died in the wool sealed 3 way speaker guy using only a soft dome tweeter. ADS L1290II. using a DSP to Bi_Amp them I was pushing over thee hundred watts of class AB power per side. Then on my second system I Bi-Amped using two Dynaco ST-70s powering Dahlquist DQ12 speakers. They were open and spacious with a very good presentation. I preferred the spaciousness provided by moving the midrange out of the box. The ADS had a much better frequency response but they didn't sound realistic compared to the Dahlquist. My listening area currently is huge and a very unique space. Basically the room is an open L shape with a staircase bisecting the bottom of the L and the listening area provides minimal parallel walls. From the corner to the half wall for the staircase is about 18ft and my sitting location is approximately 10ft from the front wall but the long part of the L is almost thirty feet. I purchased a SET amp and it sat in the box unopened for over a year. Because of the Dahlquist I was planning on building some open baffles for it but wasn't sure If they could fill the space with only two watts. I went and listened to the MOABS and while they sounded great they were just to big. What I realized was that while corner horns are big they don't really intrude into the living space. I found a used pair of Speaker Lab SK corner horns planning on using them as bass boxes for my open baffle speakers until I hooked them up. Holy crap. I had finally after forty years moved from midf-i to HI-FI. The sound first reminded me of the movie theaters of my youth. It was huge, detailed and deep. The most amazing part is that they sounded great anywhere in the space. I added a 12 inch sealed subwoofer for no other reason in that I had one and now the bass goes really deep. With 2 watts I can pressurize the whole space and it's so clean and clear that I don't realize how loud it's playing until I pause it and then come back to it I've listened to some pretty good stereos and nothing has impacted me the way these corner horns have in this space. The limiting factor now is my source, cables and crossovers. It just doesn't compare to the sound of a $15,000 turntable with thousands of dollars of cables but saying that it is totally satisfying. I have less invested in my current system than some of you have in a single power cord. There is no reason that it should sound this good... but it does. I would recommend horns now something a year ago I would never consider. Live and learn. Don't even ask me about power cables. |
I had been happy with Lansche 4.1 since 2006 . Recently, I got Altec A7. It is surprisingly good. You can get a glimpse of the sound of its horn through linked Youtube videos. https://youtu.be/4L42N2Qdhqs https://youtu.be/uE1eFKG6RCU https://youtu.be/OmITNM6a9Q8 https://youtu.be/TAWqNpfjaG0 Thomas |
My tech geek also forwarned me to avoid Klipsche horns. He also gave me 2 thumbs down on a horn system. So thats thats. Stickin with my WBer things. I have zero complaints about my WBers. Every speaker/design has +'s and then the =-'s. My WBers have no _'s, unless you want to make 20hz-40hz a requirement and 12khz+++ a requisite. Then thats 2 strikes. I hear them as Grand Slamers. 1st pitch. |
I have owned the Klipsch rf7 3s while its not the best/most high end horn speakers, they are still modern and come from a renowned horn speaker specialist company I would have to say that for music they are some of the worst sounding speakers I have EVER heard in my life. extremely fatiguing and bright + high noise. HARSH is the best word to describe them. what's sad is that I've read they are some of the most balanced speakers Klipsch has. Which should mean that they play all music well but thats simply not the case. living up to klipsch reputation they are better with alternative/rock and quite terrible with many genres honestly, listening to music in my car, heck even with cheap headphones is much more enjoyable I have tried many things to make them more acceptable sounding including using a high end dac costing many times more than the speakers. I even used speaker cables costing more than the speakers themselves. The upgraded cables helped improve the sound quite a bit. I even tired using a power conditioner (synergistic uef 12se with upgraded Galileo sx power cord- to lower noise floor and help clean things up. There is nothing that will make these sound good. I am using different speakers in the same room with significantly better results. I am now using the klipsch for home theater which them seem perfect for. They are good speakers overall, but just not for music It's safe to say that after this experience i literally hate horn speakers and I'm permanently dissuaded from ever looking at any pair regardless of price |
willgolf533 posts04-20-2020 9:26pmYou might want to read my forum...Horn Speaker Suggestions. I went through a very long process before deciding on horn speakers. Never in a million years did I think I would end up with horn speakers. I listened to tons of very high end non horn speakers before deciding on Viking Acoustic Grande Voix speakers. What sold me was the clarity of sound. I love hearing each instrument and that is what horn speakers do for me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just curious were any high tech WBers (aka fullrange point source) speakers in your exp vs the horns? Names of labs you heard. Such as Fostex, Mark Audio, AER, Voxativ, DavidLouis, Tang band, Cube and others. |
I didn’t like horns at all, based mostly on opinions I’d heard from others. I’d never bothered to find a way to give them a good listen. Then one day years ago I was at an audio show. It was when Stereophile was still doing audio shows. The show was almost over when I walked into a large room with lots of people in it. The exhibitor, whose name was Jeff (can’t remember the last name) was standing in front of a pair of large horn speakers. He put on a vinyl copy of Pink Floyd’s “The Wall”. He cued up “Another Brick in the Wall” and turned the volume up to lease break. I’ve never before or since heard that music sound so good. I mean, it was alive in that room. Jeff was bouncing up and down, people were playing air guitars, it was wonderful. That experience alone taught me what a great horn speaker can do. The speakers were Avantgarde. |
I agree that the colorations present in most horns is pretty significant. It is possible to design a horn system with a minimum of issues making them sound like less "horns" but retaining the significant advantages or this type of speaker. I have heard much better horns than Classic Audio but they came with a very significant price tag. Of mainstream horns, Klipsch are the worst and to me are unlistenable without mods. Biggest mistake I have encountered with many horn enthusiasts is that they dont provide their speakers with enough power. |
@isochronism ... I had components for 3 of essentially those (dual 1226 topped with 2446 CD’s with 2385 horns. (The offer cabinet and the drivers/horns came separately with no x-over (was going to use miniDSP’s). This was to be for the front stage in my large HT. Then moved and I’ve not had room for those in each of my next two houses, but I just dismantled and kept all the drivers. Flirting with a dedicated HT addition to current house, so these may yet be incorporated 🤞 |
There are very few horn loudspeakers that are not hopelessly colored. Classic Audio speakers are the best I have heard. Making thin walled horns out of wood is plain asking for it. A loudspeaker is not supposed to be a musical instrument. It should be only a transducer, nothing else. The only serious advantage horn speakers have is efficiency. While it is easier to make them dynamic they do not own the store in that regards. I have not yet heard a horn system rise to the level of the absolute sound but I do not see a reason why they should not be able to get there. The settings I have heard them in have not been well controlled. With dynamic speakers it is usually the crossover and lack of directionality or uniform directionality that keep them from rising to the ultimate levels. (can't wait to hear my buddy's new Magico S7s) Horns are very directional which is a good thing, Classic Audio speakers uniformly so. It comes down to the crossover and it is not easy to design a really good one. The problem is essentially the same for any multiway system. This may be the magic behind full range speakers. It may be easier to get them to image properly and the people that love them hold this more dear than reproduction of the frequency extremes? Just a guess as I have never listen to or played with a full range speaker/driver. |
I have Heresy’s and Quartet’s- both modified with dampening material on all the horns. Don’t see myself ever selling the Quartet’s- they are really great paired with a tube front end and ss amp. Raised up about 14 or so inches I truly enjoy them and so do the guests that marvel over a 25 ish year old speaker. I also have Thiel, Ohms, Vandersteens, B&Ws, NHT, older Advent, Bose 901 series 1, all have a place but the Quartets I listen to most. |
At my local shop, which makes it’s own custom horn systems using mostly vintage drivers, I recently hear two fantastic horn systems. One had a cabinet that is a copy of the Western Electric 753 cabinet. But, instead of a 713a driver, the speaker used a 713b driver. Because the 713b doesn’t go as high as the713a, this system had a tweeter (T35). The woofer is an Eltus copy of the Jensen woofer in a genuine 753 speaker. This speaker was great sounding even with its placement inside a wall shelving unit. The builder said it is better sounding than the genuine 753 he owns. The other system was quite unique in appearance. It was like a large vanity with a coiled up snail-shaped horn sitting in the slightly lower center section. The horn had an IPC 1000 compression driver. The woofer is an 18-inch Goodman, and the tweeter is, I believe, an RP 302 (not visible). I heard this speaker driven by a vintage WE 124 amp and a quite rare WE 94 amp. I really liked both “new” horn systems made from very old drivers. |
I am so glad that i took the horn plunge in 2008 because they are truly amazing on the reproduction of any kind or type of music but you have to get one made prior to 1965 to truly hear a good one. 1965 you say? No good ones after that you say? Well I say I’m sitting here listening to a pair manufacturerd in 2020 and they sound sublime. |
phusis, I don't know who made the 12" drivers I have. They were part of a system made by an Italian firm named Strumenti Acustici Precisione which put them in a Jensen Onken cabinet. I bought the speakers about 18 years ago, and then later changed out the horn driver for the Western Electric horns. This was easy to do because the horn drivers in the original speaker just sat in a cradle on top of the woofer cabinet. My replacement midrange horn setup actually looks better than the original horns in that system because they have a width identical to that of the woofer cabinet (24"). The woofers in my system barely move at all. I like the sound of such old school woofers with pleated paper surrounds. They may not go very deep but they behave well and deliver clean sound and natural "tone." The 713b driver is quite old, I believe someone told me it was made around 1939. I think it is one of the best sounding compression drivers made, but, it does have some limitations. First, it does not go quite as low or quite as high as some other Western Electric drivers. Also, it has a 4 ohm impedance which makes it harder to build a suitable crossover when using other drivers of higher impedance. These drivers come up once in a while on eBay and other such sites, but, finding a well matched pair is quite difficult. When a matched pair from a reliable source does come up for sale, the price is quite exorbitant these days. |
@larryi -- My speakers are 99 db/w efficient. The midrange compression driver has considerably higher efficiency, which is why I have an L-Pad to reduce its output to match that of the woofers. I really like the sound of the 713b driver. Great. What's the origin of those 12" alnico drivers? The WE 12025 multi cell horn looks to be sturdily build, which bodes well for suppressing material resonances. I gather the WE compression drivers must be quite old - potentially 70-80 years? It's a testament really to how well these things were made (way) back then, and the sonics they deliver. The high eff. bass drivers of yore meant for horn loading aren't really made today. With straight sided paper diaphragms that light, voice coils that relatively small in diameter, short in length and low excursion though fitted with powerful magnets - all of which leads to low-ish power handling but very high sensitivity, and not least excellent performance in a horn (resulting in even higher sensitivity) quite unlike anything heard today really, in a very good way. Direct radiation with bigger high eff. drivers (12" on up) is a very capable solution (but still no match compared to a proper horn-loaded system here), not least in duals per channel like we use in our respective set-ups, and it also potentially offers a very nice dispersion pattern match to the horn above at the cross-over. It's core physics, really, and exposes how modern speakers by and large are a poor expression of functionality. They realized the physics part as a macro parameter a century ago, which has since given way to convenience and being dictated by interior decoration. |
phusis, My speakers are 99 db/w efficient. The midrange compression driver has considerably higher efficiency, which is why I have an L-Pad to reduce its output to match that of the woofers. I really like the sound of the 713b driver. My local dealer, Deja Vu Audio (Northern Virginia), builds custom systems around such vintage drivers as the 713b. Recently, they reconditioned two 713b drivers (attached to 32 horns) and put them into a cabinet which is a clone of the Western Electric 753 cabinet. They installed woofers that are suppose to be clones of the Jensen drivers used in the original 753 speaker. Because the 713b does not go as high as the 713a driver used in original 753s, a horn tweeter was added, which makes it not quite a clone of the original design. This speaker was installed into a wall unit, so in that sense, it was very much a "bookshelf" system. This is a terrific compact system--dynamic, clear, harmonically rich and musical sounding system. It is right up there with another compact system built by Deja Vu that employed a Jensen M-10 fieldcoil driver and a tweeter. |
@larryi -- The term "horn" speaker actually covers a pretty wide range of speaker types. When I think of horn speakers, I usually think of systems with compression midrange drivers attached to a horn waveguide. But, like the Viking speakers mentioned above, the drivers could be conventional drivers with a horn waveguide (a wide range driver in the case of the Viking). I suppose purist would insist that even the bass driver be horn-loaded as well to qualify as a "horn" system. Exactly. As an outset we’d be at least technically enlightened knowing whether a claimed "horn" speaker system is a horn hybrid in a particular variation or a fully horn-loaded ditto - again in one form or another. This makes a difference, certainly upholding a general schism between horn hybrids and fully horn loaded speakers, even when both groups hold a variety of combinatory forms that have sonic implications. Not that many people have heard all-horn speakers, and the ones that have would usually refer to a Klipsch iteration (i.e.: La Scala’s, Belle’s and Khorn) or in some rarer cases Altec’s VoTT’s - hardly an exhaustive representation, as you point to. The one frequency span that arguably carries the most important imprinting of a speaker’s sound is the "power region," or the upper bass to lower midrange - which is to say some 150 to 650Hz. Horn-loading this frequency range has significant impact in how it differs from a direct radiating solution, certainly when the latter sports smaller drivers below 10-12," lower efficiency at that. When you know, by experience, how this difference pans out you’re keenly aware of making the distinction clear whether low eff. direct radiation or high eff. horn-loading is used in this area. I can only assume that since most refer to horn speakers in a generalizing fashion as outlined above, experience is quite limited. My system if a horn system only in that it has a compression driver and horn waveguide. I run a Western Electric 713b compression driver into a Western Electric 12025 horn. This is one of my absolute favorite midrange driver setup. The woofers are twin 12" alnico magnet paper cone drivers with pleated paper surrounds mounted in an onken bass reflex cabinet. The tweeters are Fostex bullet tweeters. That sounds like a great set-up. What’s the efficiency range here? My speakers are Electro-Voice’s cinema speaker continuation of Altec’s A10/MR945A: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/59344-hollywood-back-lot/&do=findComment&comm... https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/59344-hollywood-back-lot/&do=findComment&comm... |
I happily lived with Harbeth Super HL5+ for close to 6 years, then--on a whim--I picked up a pair of inexpensive Klipsch Forte II on Craigslist. They turned out to be a gateway drug. I liked the horn sound so much that I ended up getting rid of the SHL5+ and ultimately settled on CW IV. As much as a loved the Harbeth, I don’t miss them. With the CW IV, I appreciate the dynamics and enormous soundstage, oftentimes I listen for hours without any fatigue. I definitely like the flexibility with amps and have used both solid state and tubes (SET & PP). My favorites are a 2A3 and 300B amps from Triode Lab. If I hadn’t taken a chance of a pair of cheap horns from Craigslist, I probably wouldn’t have the CW IV in my system today. The moral of the story: hear them in your system and then decide if you love them or hate them. |
The term "horn" speaker actually covers a pretty wide range of speaker types. When I think of horn speakers, I usually think of systems with compression midrange drivers attached to a horn waveguide. But, like the Viking speakers mentioned above, the drivers could be conventional drivers with a horn waveguide (a wide range driver in the case of the Viking). I suppose purist would insist that even the bass driver be horn-loaded as well to qualify as a "horn" system. My system if a horn system only in that it has a compression driver and horn waveguide. I run a Western Electric 713b compression driver into a Western Electric 12025 horn. This is one of my absolute favorite midrange driver setup. The woofers are twin 12" alnico magnet paper cone drivers with pleated paper surrounds mounted in an onken bass reflex cabinet. The tweeters are Fostex bullet tweeters. As with any speaker design, when I say I really like the sound of horn speakers, I am of course speaking about certain horn speakers, not all of them. For one thing, many speakers that are described as horn systems are not particularly efficient and easy to drive, which means that they may not be a great match to the kinds of amplifiers I like which are all low in output power. All systems have some form of tonal coloration, and we all have our preferences/tolerance to particular tonal qualities which makes particular preferences personal. That is why, when someone says they "hate" horn systems, that is not particularly enlightening; it would help to know which particular systems they heard and did not like. The most commonly heard systems, like Klipsch and Altec, hardly represent all horn systems. For horn systems not based on compression drivers, I liked some systems using full/wide range drivers with quarter-wave backloaded horn configuration. I have also heard such wide/full range drivers used with a horn waveguide which makes me interested in the VIking system mentioned by Willgolf. There are MANY different implementations of horn-based systems to explore. |
@Mozartfan ---you found my horn thread from the past and quoted me above. In my quest for speakers I listened to Maggies, Wilson Sonus Faber, Eggleston, Stenheim, Rockport, Focal, Meridien, Joseph Audio, Vivid, Vandersteen, Evolution Acoustic, Tekton, and YG Acoustic before deciding on a horn. I owned Wilson Audio Duette 2's and Sonus Faber Amati Tradition Homage speakers. I will take my 98db Viking Acoustic Dual Horn speakers over any of them. Prior to deciding on the GV's, I considered, hORN Universum ( my second choice), JBL, Deja Vu, Aer, Charney, AvanteGarde, BD Design, PureAudioProject and Cessaro. My system is totally tube driven with Canary Audio Grand Reference 300B mono amps, C1800 Pre-amp and a Lampi Pacific DAC. I could not be happier with my sound and it will get even better when my Lucas Audio LMDS music server arrives. Unless I upgrade ( and I don't see a need to) in the Viking speaker line-up, I will be happy for the rest of my life with my Horn Speakers. An added bonus is that my wife loves the way they look!!!!! |
mozartfan, Do you read what your write? If so, does this make sense to you? If you have anything to contribute please present your information in such a way as to not render it meaningless as it floats off your keyboard. Reading your posts makes me very uncomfortable as does the thought of you doing day to day (normal) things like driving. |
mozartfan781 posts04-13-2021 10:25am The FR is 93db Made a world of difference. 1 FR 6.5 vs Seas Dual 6.5's + the world fmore Millennium tweet, Yet the FR 6/5 did more than hold its own, it far surpassed the Thors. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't listen to my previous post. I was completely wrong. The Diatone chinese 6.5 FR was a disaster. Completely worthless. Oh sure it does do things the Seas Millennium can ' not accomplish. But the Diatone off Ebay really stinks. Sloppy bass, highly distorted midfs, completely rolled off highs. This Magnovox horn from 1963 , blows away any dome tweet, Any/all, every last one. Horns RULE! |
I have never owned a horn speaker. I’m curious if there are any who are first time horn speaker owners after having owned other types of speakers for many years, and are you glad you switched? needlebrush04-20-2020 2:14pm~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard Gray just today, lent me his old 1960's Magnoxov horn tweeters, WOWWWW SOLD Sold off my Millennium tweeters lasty week, BRAND NEW for $300 pair./ships free.sold in 1 hour on ebay I'll never ever consider any done wteeter ever again in my entire life. Been there DONE that. Horns RULE! Now which horns? Only musical ones should be considered. I listen close field, small room, so the massive JBL's will not work for me. The Magnovox 1963 hasa tiny alnico magnet, I mean thats all I need. All I need now is a midrange horn. I have bass with dual W18E001's, Richard just added a 2.2uf Mundorf SESGO cap to the 10uf Supreme Silver Gold OIl (Not EVO Supreme, only Supreme ), and man, did that added 2.2 EXPOLDE the bass. These Mundorf SESGO caps in bass xovers are just incredible. The added 2.2 brings the W18's down from 1900 hz to 1600 hz. Perfect. If I can finda quality midrange horn, this set up Dual W18E001 + Mid Horn + Tweet horn , might very well give the Voxativ AC1A FR driver a ~~Run for its money~~~ I'm serious. But i know fora fact the Vox8 will win out, This W18/Horn combo will hold me over til I get some cash for the Vox AC1A I havea Davidlouis 4 inch FR arriving any day. It will be the Horns vs the davidLouis 4 inch FR for mids highs... I will keep everyone posted on this shootout. A good musical horn tweet will blow away any done tweet in the world, Including SEas $9k diamond dome tweeter |
I think that a listener’s preference for horns (assuming that they are good ones) will be in good part based on how much they value realistic dynamics, and the sense of ease that horn loudspeakers display. I guess I am one of those that put those things a bit lower than I do other aspects. I don’t believe, with my RAAL ribbon and cone speakers, I am giving up enough dynamics, to be worth losing the imaging, detail, timbral accuracy, huge and deep soundstage, I am gaining going with what I currently have. Now, that’s not to say, that there aren’t horns that can do both, but they are extremely expensive. Like Avant-garde Acoustics, Acapella, Cessaro, and similar level of horn speakers. Klipsch won’t do it, and I speak from experience. I lived with my cousins Heresy IV for several months while he was out of town last year. At first, I was taken in by their attributes that everyone always touts, but it didn’t take long for their negative attributes to make themselves known. And before all the Klipsch fanboys chime in, yes, I was driving them with tubes, and yes, I’ve heard other Klipsch, like K Horns for extended periods. |
