@needlebrush -- I have never owned a horn speaker. I’m curious if there are any who are first time horn speaker owners after having owned other types of speakers for many years, and are you glad you switched?
My switch was gradual, from Direct Radiators to hybrid designs (2-way, waveguides + DR woofers), then to all-horn mains augmented by a DR sub and finally the same mains coupled with a pair of tapped horns subs instead. This goes to show the following: if you want to truly consider a horn speaker system then it must rightfully function as such in the entire frequency spectrum you’re using it or intend to use it in, or else it’s not a true horn speaker system (but rather a horn-hybrid). Period, end of story. In the same fashion one doesn’t call a hybrid vehicle with both a combustion engine and electrical motors for an electric car, but rather a hybrid. Suffice to say, if you really want to wrap it all up coherently there’s no way around horn-loading into the sub bass range as well - indeed it’s much more important than one would immediately believe. Most people don’t even know what horn-loaded midbass sounds like, not to mention extending it into sub bass, but it adds a particular ease, easy-flowing presence and sense of being enveloped to the sound that sets true horn speakers apart from direct radiators and even horn-hybrids. No doubt; to me the switch was absolutely worth it, but it takes dedication for a number of reasons. There’s also size to consider, for while poster @atmasphere pointed out horn-loading down to the midbass can be had from a physical package not too excessive in size, relatively speaking, with sub bass via horns you can’t dodge the need for size. Once there however having chosen a quality implemented all-horn set-up, which is not not necessarily easy nor cheap to come by (unless you go DIY), it really is a different kind of listening experience, and one that by nature distinguishes itself from the sound of direct radiators and horn hybrids - positively, I find. Most may think of horns in terms of dynamics and SPL-capabilities (with an implied sense of crudeness, perhaps), but quite a few have commented on the sound of my set-up being especially suited to music with live acoustic instruments (classical and jazz), well-recorded voices, as well as blues and the techno/trance/etc. genre. The least attractive sounding music via my set-up is a lot of the pop/rock genre that sounds the way it is: artificial, often overproduced and compressed. |
... don't mention bass distortion thermal compression and distortion at higher SPL to non-horn owners they just don't seem to hear it or do they?
@johnk -- It would require of them to know, and having lived with the difference. Once heard how relaxed and effortless bass reproduction can sound like, even at full click, what's not just sounds forced, malnourished and less enveloping. Although, periodically matters are sought inverted with the claim that horn dynamics are "exaggerated." I guess comfort doesn't welcome the occasional being startled.. |
@mrdecibel -- Did not mean to ruin and end the thread Hardly, for the most part I see you doing the very opposite in acknowledging the aspect of subjectivity in audiophilia - through your range of experience, not least. That is, we shouldn’t avoid, less politically correct it may be, calling things by their right names; my understanding of what’s subjective implies the priority of what we choose and what constitutes our (p)reference, but that doesn’t make traits like unrestricted dynamics, ease, transient ability and presence any less important, objectively, in the pursuit of what emulates a live, acoustic (or amplified) performance. The question to or what’s perceived by some may be what’s sacrificed in other sonic areas getting there, but to my ears good horns generally have less character than direct radiators; music simply happens more naturally and uninhibited (my next "adventure" is acquiring a pair of horn-hybrid pro cinema speakers, recently used in an actual theater in Germany, for fully active (i.e.: sans passive cross-over) duties - oh well, they’re still +100dB’s sensitive). |
@isochronism --
I also appreciate mrdecibel's contributions. With phusis' mention of pro cinema horns, how about the JBL 4676 model? (with 4550 bottom cabinets). Does anyone have any experience with these, or opinions regarding such?
I don't have experience with those you mention, but perhaps @johnk could share some insights here? |
... I have an original pair put away for years. I've been looking for a larger place to move to for some time. Hopefully soon!
I'd assume just having a pair of those stored away would require a larger place :) They're big for sure, but do they necessarily need longer listening distances to sum the presentation at one's ears? |
@mrdecibel -- " Throw ". Some listeners do not get it, unfortunately. Most of the larger horn speakers ( google Klipsch Pro; a grand scale example : Klipsch KPT-CINEMA GRANDEUR ), would require an extremely large room, and ime, for sure, a great distance, between them, and the listener. A few folks I know of ( many here on the Gon ) would have no problem, listening to them, from 8 - 12 ft away. As much as I would happily own a pair, along with the associated gear to run them, they would not work in my current room, a room, that my Lascalas, work, very well. Lascalas, can fill a stage, albeit, on a smaller scale. YMMV
Of course going by the very biggest pro cinema speakers out there (used in actual movie theaters) would have one dealing with +7’ tall behemoths, and is something like trying to fit a Big Block Chevy V8 engine into an older Fiat 500 - at least if typically sized domestic environments are thought of. Proper summation of the sound would likely need distances that extend beyond one’s interior (and exterior) surfaces.. Fortunately pro cinema speakers come in different sizes depending on the number of seats that needs to be reached effortlessly, and the ones that will see their way into my set-up are 2-way with 2 x 15" bass drivers per cab and a single compression driver-fitted 90x40 coverage horn on top. Bigger auditoriums would see a similar speaker package fitted with an additional and dedicated, big midrange horn, with the biggest auditoriums needing additional capacity from the mid-bass bins as well. Pro cinema speakers, not least used, hold potential bargains, and can function very well in domestic milieus. They’re not beauty queens, and even the smaller ones are still big, but if that’s an acceptable factor there are good results to be potentially had with a wide performance envelope, including both sound quality and prodigious headroom (mine will be high-passed and augmented by my tapped horn subs from ~80Hz down). To me it’s an experiment, also for trying out a fully active configuration, and the particular cinema speakers I’ve acquired (should arrive later this week) use excellent drivers that in a hifi-ish package would cost ungodly amounts of money. We’ll see - hopefully I’ll be able to integrate them well. |
@larryi -- The term "horn" speaker actually covers a pretty wide range of speaker types. When I think of horn speakers, I usually think of systems with compression midrange drivers attached to a horn waveguide. But, like the Viking speakers mentioned above, the drivers could be conventional drivers with a horn waveguide (a wide range driver in the case of the Viking). I suppose purist would insist that even the bass driver be horn-loaded as well to qualify as a "horn" system.
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As with any speaker design, when I say I really like the sound of horn speakers, I am of course speaking about certain horn speakers, not all of them. For one thing, many speakers that are described as horn systems are not particularly efficient and easy to drive, which means that they may not be a great match to the kinds of amplifiers I like which are all low in output power. All systems have some form of tonal coloration, and we all have our preferences/tolerance to particular tonal qualities which makes particular preferences personal. That is why, when someone says they "hate" horn systems, that is not particularly enlightening; it would help to know which particular systems they heard and did not like. The most commonly heard systems, like Klipsch and Altec, hardly represent all horn systems. Exactly. As an outset we’d be at least technically enlightened knowing whether a claimed "horn" speaker system is a horn hybrid in a particular variation or a fully horn-loaded ditto - again in one form or another. This makes a difference, certainly upholding a general schism between horn hybrids and fully horn loaded speakers, even when both groups hold a variety of combinatory forms that have sonic implications. Not that many people have heard all-horn speakers, and the ones that have would usually refer to a Klipsch iteration (i.e.: La Scala’s, Belle’s and Khorn) or in some rarer cases Altec’s VoTT’s - hardly an exhaustive representation, as you point to. The one frequency span that arguably carries the most important imprinting of a speaker’s sound is the "power region," or the upper bass to lower midrange - which is to say some 150 to 650Hz. Horn-loading this frequency range has significant impact in how it differs from a direct radiating solution, certainly when the latter sports smaller drivers below 10-12," lower efficiency at that. When you know, by experience, how this difference pans out you’re keenly aware of making the distinction clear whether low eff. direct radiation or high eff. horn-loading is used in this area. I can only assume that since most refer to horn speakers in a generalizing fashion as outlined above, experience is quite limited. My system if a horn system only in that it has a compression driver and horn waveguide. I run a Western Electric 713b compression driver into a Western Electric 12025 horn. This is one of my absolute favorite midrange driver setup. The woofers are twin 12" alnico magnet paper cone drivers with pleated paper surrounds mounted in an onken bass reflex cabinet. The tweeters are Fostex bullet tweeters.
That sounds like a great set-up. What’s the efficiency range here? My speakers are Electro-Voice’s cinema speaker continuation of Altec’s A10/MR945A: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/59344-hollywood-back-lot/&do=findComment&comm...https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/59344-hollywood-back-lot/&do=findComment&comm... |
@larryi --
My speakers are 99 db/w efficient. The midrange compression driver has considerably higher efficiency, which is why I have an L-Pad to reduce its output to match that of the woofers. I really like the sound of the 713b driver.
My local dealer, Deja Vu Audio (Northern Virginia), builds custom systems around such vintage drivers as the 713b. Recently, they reconditioned two 713b drivers (attached to 32 horns) and put them into a cabinet which is a clone of the Western Electric 753 cabinet. They installed woofers that are suppose to be clones of the Jensen drivers used in the original 753 speaker. Because the 713b does not go as high as the 713a driver used in original 753s, a horn tweeter was added, which makes it not quite a clone of the original design. This speaker was installed into a wall unit, so in that sense, it was very much a "bookshelf" system. This is a terrific compact system--dynamic, clear, harmonically rich and musical sounding system. It is right up there with another compact system built by Deja Vu that employed a Jensen M-10 fieldcoil driver and a tweeter.
Great. What's the origin of those 12" alnico drivers? The WE 12025 multi cell horn looks to be sturdily build, which bodes well for suppressing material resonances. I gather the WE compression drivers must be quite old - potentially 70-80 years? It's a testament really to how well these things were made (way) back then, and the sonics they deliver. The high eff. bass drivers of yore meant for horn loading aren't really made today. With straight sided paper diaphragms that light, voice coils that relatively small in diameter, short in length and low excursion though fitted with powerful magnets - all of which leads to low-ish power handling but very high sensitivity, and not least excellent performance in a horn (resulting in even higher sensitivity) quite unlike anything heard today really, in a very good way. Direct radiation with bigger high eff. drivers (12" on up) is a very capable solution (but still no match compared to a proper horn-loaded system here), not least in duals per channel like we use in our respective set-ups, and it also potentially offers a very nice dispersion pattern match to the horn above at the cross-over. It's core physics, really, and exposes how modern speakers by and large are a poor expression of functionality. They realized the physics part as a macro parameter a century ago, which has since given way to convenience and being dictated by interior decoration. |
