Will some new class D amplifiers outperforming the current ones appear soon
(the newest ones i know were released a few years ago)?
Class D amps attract me as I consider them the most ecological ones with obvious non-auditionable benefits.
I have no doubts that they posses the maximum ratio performance/sound quality among the amplifiers of all classes.
At the same time, the sound quality the class D amplifiers that I have auditioned produce, although is quite good,
but not yet ideal (for my taste).
I use PS Audio Stellar S300 amp with PS audio Gain Cell pre/DAC with Thiel CS 3.6 speakers in one of my systems.
The sound is ok (deep bass, clear soundstage) but not perfect (a bit bright and somehow dry, lacking warmness which might be more or less ok for rock but not for jazz music).
I wonder if there are softer sounding class D amps with the same or better details and resolution. Considering two reasonable (as to the budget) choices for test, Red Dragon S500 and Digital Audio Company's
Cherry 2 (or Maraschino monoblocks), did anybody compare these two?
I believe your bringing up tweeter damage supposedly caused by class D amps and warning not to leave them on 24/7 are just red herrings since these claims are poorly documented and defy reason. Are you now so desperate that you're now reverting to attempting to scare individuals away from using class D amps in their systems?
I've used two stereo and a pair of monoblocks in my combo music and ht system that have been powered on 24/7 now for over the last 5 years with only very positive and zero negative results. Just excellent sound performance, no excess heat and low electricity bills.
Like some one said here they have one that goes to 1mhz in bandwidth!!
this one will certainly over time cook or quickly the tweeters voice
coils.
I even leave them on most of the time as recommended.
I don't think this is a good practice, as you don't know or
hear how much switching noise is being let through to the tweeters, if a
bit, it can slowly temper and blue the voice coils, as what happened to
my friends Wilson tweeters, they still worked, he was just complaining
that his highs had deteriorated, and yes those well known expensive
Class-D's were left on 24/7 for over 1 year on his speakers.
This is all nonsense. A typical residual waveform might be 1/2 volt; into 8 ohms that's 0.03 watts. A lower powered tweeter might be rated at 2 watts and would never see any temperature rise with such a small signal.
This anecdote is misleading, false, is apparently calculated to cause alarm; its not based on an understanding of how class D amps operate.
I have been using a class D amp for over four years now with no damage to my speakers. I too, believe the damage was as Ralph said. A case of amp overload. This makes the most sense to me.
Looking at your posts, I have noted that made an error in my initial post. I wrote:
"
I have no doubts that they (class D amps) posses the maximum ratio performance/sound quality among the amplifiers of all classes",
whereas I meant that class D amplifiers give the maximum ratio performance/price, among all classes of amplifiers, where performance = sound quality. Or more widely, we may let
performance = (sound quality - weight - size - energy consumption). Indeed, i think that Class D amplifiers are unbeatable in this issue and, very unlikely, this can be changed in the future.
Hooking up for the first time my $1500 class D amp to my system, i was sincerely surprised how one can get that quality of sound for that money!
At the same time, i think Class D is still under the basic development process (e.g. @yyzsantabarbara has posted a website speaking about recent developments in PURIFI Audio).
I share (a common?) opinion that class D amplifiers give a clear transparent sound with details and resolution. True, but something is missing. The fact that sound is transparent does not mean that it is warm and live. Take a frozen or a wax figure. It is clear, transparent, even more bright than a human, but you can see that it is not a human - the spirit is missing. Likewise, Class D gives a detailed, bright sound, though some warmness is perhaps missing.
It is possible that there are class D amps, that i have never auditioned, sound non-wax and warm (many of you mention Nord Acoustics amplifiers). But it turned out that one I have, PS Audio Stellar S300, an ICEpower model, should be one of the warmest sounding class D amps (so i am lucky!). Athough i can still enjoy it, not to the same extent. I share what George says in points 1 and 2. I do not think these are technical issues, rather they come from the auditioning experience. The tweeter damage issue, i think, should not be typical for any class D amp -- perhaps, this particular case was provoked by some wrong current or a defect of fabrication or the amp or/and CD.
Thanks @golfnutz for your notes on Red Dragon S500 with Thiel CS3.6 that i bear in mind (I also own CS6s, both are excellent speakers, CS6s sound a bit more real though).
I see Class D, being an ongoing development (carried out by the scientists), as the future of the amplifiers. Already today (unlike electric autos vs gasoline ones), Class D amps are considerably cheaper than Class A, AB amplifiers. They are much lighter, smaller, do not get hot and consume little energy. With all of this, the sound quality that they give is not that bad at all, and, i think, it will become better in the future. I think this development deserves a 100% support from all of us.
batman1971, How can you say "It's not hifi yet" when there are class D amps out there that can beat other classes of amps that are considered high end???
Because they still have two important problems to improve on, phase shift and dead time. Which the above GaN equipped SE-R1 addresses, but it's not for the common man to afford.
Tell all the reviewers including Stereophile that have done positive reviews of various Class D amps that. Not to mention the users like me.
I get it. We're all obsessed with something. Some are obsessed with Class D not being perfect like pretty much everything else (yet). To each their own.
Class D is in prime time. Some companies like Bel Canto and Aavik, as just two examples, are putting out superb Class D. I just had a customer upgrade from a couple Simaudio pieces (certainly not inexpensive) to a Bel Canto Black EX integrated amplifier. He was in a situation in a new house where he needed something that didn't produce as much heat. I said he should try out the Bel Canto Black EX. When I brought one over to try, he was hoping it would get close to sounding as good. In my mind, I was quite sure the Bel Canto would sound better. He was thrilled to find out that he found the Bel Canto to sound superior.
I more of a believer that we "prefer" amplifier A vs amplifier B because of the way it makes our systems sound...to us...in our rooms...with our other equipment...and our selected music. In this respect, there appears to be plenty of people buying class d amplifiers and then making detailed descriptions about why they enjoy their purchase, as much or more than their previous amplifiers. This definitely describes my situation with the 2Cherry that I purchased from Cherry Amp six months ago...beautifully accurate tonality with veil removing clarity...the music is just more alive.
But, it is only fair to say that not everyone has found a class d amplifier that was good enough to remain in their systems. To slightly paraphrase Herb Reichert in his review of the JBL A170...."
In the realm of reviews, John Atkinson's measurements and my
empirical observations have one important equivalency: Both are
meaningless abstractions until confirmed by your listening experience".
Nodari, Might I share my experience with you? I run a PS Audio S300 and I have tried various preamps with it, including the matching Gain Cell Preamp/DAC. I got very different outcomes in terms of the nature of the sound output from my speakers.
--I tried a good passive preamp....very dry sound, lacking in timbral fullness and color. --The Gain Cell DAC/Preamp created a smooth, rounded dulled sound, somewhat lacking in dynamic interest. I was surprised. --When I placed a tube preamp in front, the sound became, to my ears, spectacular. I was surprised how much the sound varied with these preamps. My final outcome is brilliant and not at all dry or bright. Great dynamics, timbral richness, clarity, resolution. Very happy. I suggest you work with that amp a bit more.
I recently built a second system and after much reading and research bought D-Sonics M3A-1500 mono blocks. I ran them for about 300 hours using a SS Primare pre I had and driving a new pair of Maggie 3.7i's. The amps and Maggies both require significant run in time. I was very impressed with SQ....huge open soundstage....bass took some time to arrive but it is now present and impressive. HF still needs to open up a bit more but getting there. With burn in 90% there I swapped out the Primare with a McIntosh C2300 tube pre amp...at first pretty disappointing and a bit lifeless but let it run in for 24 hours and boy am I glad I waited. Very impressive. Huge open, layered and deep soundstage. Not as highly resolving or detailed and focused as my reference rig, but at 1/5th the cost I'm totally happy and I'm still tweaking the speaker placement. These class D amps are terrific. Dead quiet, wonderfully balanced top to bottom....nothing close to "bright". Huge open soundstage with great sonic images. Crazy power. Very musical. Someone above noted that on great recordings SQ is wonderful and even poor recordings sound great. I found that to be true. Hard to believe at $2,750. for the pair.
Yes, the D-Sonic are excellent examples of class D amps that provide hi-end sound at bargain prices. Of course, there are even better class D amps available, such as Merrill Audio’s new Element 114 stereo amp that uses the new extremely fast switching Gallium Nitride transistors, but it’s priced at $15,000. Here’s a review: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/05/03/merrill-audio-introduces-the-114-new-gallium-nitride-amplifier/
But it better perform better when it costs over $12,000 more than your D-Sonic M3A-1500 mono blocks, which are their latest top of the line mono block amp model and utilize the latest very high quality power modules from Pascal. I use a pair of the slightly older, previous generation D-Sonic M3-600-M mono blocks, that were their amp model just below the M3-1500-M model, with Magnepan 2.7QR speakers and they’re the best amps I’ve ever used with them. I’m glad you mentioned how "dead quiet your class D amps are because this quietness, along with a very accurate, detailed and neutral presentation, are the most obvious qualities I’ve noticed in all the good quality class D amps I own and have listened to. The only difference I noticed between your description of your experiences utilizing class D and my own concerns performance on poor recordings. I find it’s become much easier to identify the quality level of recordings as well as upstream changes in equipment and cabling when using good quality class D amps compared to the good quality class AB amps (Adcom, McCormack and Aragon) I used previously.
I used to have the pleasure of owning a McIntosh MC275. That was when I used to sell audio. At that time I also got to hear some rare Luxman tube amps... And, a friend's refurbished Dynaco ST70. Yes... tubes have their benefits. But, I no longer miss them. I now own a NuPrime ST10. Modded with the TDSS modding. I do not miss tubes anymore. I also lived with a PS Audio Stellar 300 for a season. The Nuprime in certain ways is better at doing what tubes are known for. Just make sure you have the right cables for your system.
You know what? I have had the best results with Class D. I have had a pair of Anthem M1 mono blocks which run at 2000 watts per channel each when the input mains are at 240 V, which I run. These amps absolutely blow away the Parasound Halo amp I had been running prior; that is the Class A/ AB amp which everyone says is so 'warm', touchy feely.... etc. No contest; not even close.
The M1's are far more dynamic, cleaner, lower noise floor, far more open on the upper end and the low end is what people seek. Couple the M1's with a Whest phono stage on the input side for vinyl and just sit back and relax.
I'm new to class D. About a year ago I bought a modded ps audio trying to build second system. For me first thing I noticed it took 5 days 24/7 to sound right, It has to have a very good power conditioner and descent power cord or I feel your wasting your time. I have tube and a/b amps they have never been that dependent on clean power. I started of with just a modded ps audio GCPH phono stage with volume control straight into amp. It was super clean an fast but became lacking. I wanted to try a big tubey Preamp so I found a used Bruce Moore. It sounded really good but not until I put Jupiter copper foils in the preamp. Copper caps and digital amps sound good together. For me it made the amp sound very natural. They use no electricity and aren't hot, I'm going to keep mine.
I originally agreed with all that have suggested pairing a good quality tube preamp with their class D amps. For a few years I used a VTL 2.5L preamp, with the four standard tubes swapped out for a set of four NOS (new old stock) Mullard tubes in my combo 2-channel music and 5.1 ch surround system for HT. The HT portion of my system included an Oppo 105 Bluray player and a Parasound AV-2500 5.1 surround sound preamp/processor. The VTL has a HT passthru switch and the Oppo is able to play CD, SACD and DVD-A discs and hi-res music files for 2-ch audio as well as DVD and Bluray video discs for HT. This setup sounded great for music and HT and I never thought I'd sell the VTL tube preamp. But I had an urge to streamline my system and I tried my system out without the Parasound surround processor and the VTL. I just went direct from the Oppo's outputs to my amps; a pair of class D D-Sonic M3-600-M mono block amps for l+r stereo for music and front l+r channels for HT surround, a bridged stereo class D Emerald Physics EP-100-SE amp for the center ch and a stereo Class D Audio SDS-440-CS amp for the rear surround channels. The Oppo's audio sections are very high quality with a detailed and neutral presentation just as all of my class D amps are. I expected the combined overall sound to be too sterile, neutral and lacking in dimension, warmth, bloom and body. However, I was surprised to discover that all my familiar music sounded just as sweet, warm, dimensional and full of natural body without the flavoring I had assumed the VTL and tubes were providing. I think it's important to point out that these very good results were obtained on music that was well recorded. Fortunately, most of my familiar music turned out to be well recorded but, unfortunately, not all of my music recordings survived such close scrutiny of quality. There are some recordings I've removed from the rotation if I was unable to find a well recorded example of the same music. These were unexpected results, somewhat proven by the fact that I had just bought and installed a complete four tube replacement set of $200 NOS Mullard tubes in the VTL. But I felt I had to trust my ears, so I removed the VTL from my system and sold it to a buddy. My new system configuration, combining an accurate, detailed and neutral preamp with amps that have the same characteristics, not surprisingly delivers an overall system sound that is very accurate, detailed and neutral. I related my experience just for the benefit of those considering class D amps. My main point being you can obtain very good overall system sound quality using class D amps by either pairing it with an accurate, detailed and neutral preamp (usually solid state) along with exclusively well recorded source material or pairing it with a more flavored preamp (usually tubed) that is more forgiving on poorly recorded source material. A choice of two methods reflecting different personal preferences.
I see that you are interested in the Red Dragon amplifiers, I’m sorry to say it appears that Ryan at Red Dragon Audio has closed his company. The website has sold out of all equipment and I have tried contacting Ryan about a needed repair and he has not responded. If I am incorrect please let me know. If anybody knows where to get a Red Dragon mono block repaired please respond.
I ran a pair of Red Dragon M1000 MkII’s for two years. I found them to be dead quiet, accurate, revealing , with solid imaging and they threw a wide soundstage, they did not however have a lot of depth of field. I agree with other owners of class D amps, they are a bargain particularly, if you need a lot of power.
I can only speak for my experience with the Red Dragon ICE technology. I listen to music between 15-20 hours a week on average in a dedicated listening room. I enjoyed the M1000’s for the first year or so immensely but gradually found that the initial intrigue of their positive sonic attributes was lacking something. I finally concluded, that for me the music was not emotionally engaging. It took a lot of listening to reach this conclusion, if I listened less frequently or was primarily interested in musical detail or frequency response I may never of reached this conclusion. I recognize that many class D owners enjoy their amplifiers and this is only my opinion. The M1000’s will be going in to a home theater application.
Ryan of Red Dragon told me he's going to have an all new and upgraded lineup of amps coming out later this year. He's definitely not going out of business. Here's a copy of his email response:
"Ryan Tew<ryan@reddragonaudio.com>Mon, Jul 22, 3:17 PMto me Hi Tim We are working on an entirely new MkIII generation and hope to have them ready later this year.
Thanks, Ryan Tew President - RedDragon Audio www.RedDragonAudio.com 801.361.7138801.810.8184 On Jul 21, 2019, at 1:07 AM, REDDRAGON AUDIO (Shopify) <mailer@shopify.com> wrote:"
I have already bought two Class D amps . . . Crown 1502, and couldn't be more pleased. In fact, I may be buying two more to change my speakers from passive to active combos. The sound is more detailed than the two hefty monoblocks I used on my main speakers. The background noise is non-existence, and the power these amps can output, depending on their ohm resistance . . . so these speakers cruise, they are light, take up little space, have so many features, and I thoroughly enjoy their addition to my stereo system.
First off I would never own a Class D amp I don't care how far they've come along they will never equal a Class a the only thing that I can say about them is their lightweight they're cheap but they're all so noisy anybody who has had years of experience in audio file systems well tell you that class D amps are just for beginners
Anyone who claims class D amps are noisy has obviously never listened to one, forfeits all credibility and any further claims they make on the subject are best ignored.
they're all so noisy anybody who has had years of experience in audio
file systems well tell you that class D amps are just for beginners
Noise is what the Class D amps have least of.
I suggest anyone considering a Class D amp to listen for themselves up against similarly priced gear. I've had linear and Class D amps at the same time, I've had a number of audiophiles listen to the Class D amps without knowing it. They never ever noticed.
noble100"Anyone who claims class D amps are noisy has obviously never listened to one"
This is wholly, completely, and utterly false, speculative, and prejudiced not only have some of us "listened' we have also actually "measured" using reliable, repeatable, objective measurement techniques that are recognized by engineers, scientists, and industry as fitting, proper, and appropriate but of course if you are happy with Class D you should absolutely enjoy it but you're reasoning, arguments, and suspicions are unfounded and false.
Can you please tell us, using your reliable, repeatable and objective measurement techniques, what your results were for class A, AB, D and tube amps in the standardized specification of Signal to Noise Ratio? As you’re certainly aware, your Signal to Noise Ratio measurements will settle definitively our little disagreement about whether class D amps are noisy or not. Signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is a measure used in science and engineering that compares the level of a desired signal to the level of background noise. The higher the ratio the less noisy the amp. Once you enlighten us all with your SNR measurements for each amp type, it will be obvious whether or not class D amps are noisy and which of the amp types is the quietest, in other words, which amp type has the highest measured ratio. Thank goodness you’ve been doing all your scientific measuring, ranking the various amp types from noisiest to quietest should be a breeze with your handy and definitive measurements. Oh, and just to guarantee fairness and honesty, it is stipulated that your failure to respond on this thread will be an admission that class D amps have the highest Signal to Noise Ratios of all the amp types and, therefore, can be scientifically declared as the quietest amp type. Sorry clearthink, I already know class D tops the list for highest SNR. However, I have a suspicion you’ll be reluctant to freely admit this for some reason and the stipulation will at least guarantee your tacit admission of this rather well known fact.
I think Tim gave a very clear and justified response. Both, listening experience and scientific measurements prove that class D amps are the most quiet ones, not only with the highest signal to noise ratio, but also, with the highest ratio performance/price; i.e., take a class D amp and compare it with another amp of any other class with the same price, and you will have much better sound quality in class D amp, and it will be lighter, smaller and will consume much less energy than the other amp.
Other issue is the sound quality of class D amps, in absolute terms, regardless of the price and other parameters. This issue might be discutible but note that in this case you will be comparing a class D amp with an amp that costs much more. Its like the two amps are not in the same weight category (so it would be unjustified to compete them). In this sense, class D has no completion.
Amen, brother. I don't believe any class D amp user or fan is claiming they absolutely are the best overall amp type, that they sound the best, reproduce a certain frequency range the best or are the best amp for everyone. Personally, I'm just claiming in absolute terms that class D amps are the quietest amp type, are the most electrically efficient amp type, are the coolest running amp type and are typically the smallest and lightest type. In more subjective and relative terms, I personally claim that good quality class D amps offer very good overall sound quality from top to bottom, are generally and relatively more affordable than other amp types and, therefore, are generally better bargains than other amp types. Of course, I realize our choice of which amp to purchase is a subjective one based on more than just personal preference and budget. The truth is I don't actually give a hoot which amp type individuals choose to purchase. I'm absolutely certain that I get more pleasure listening to my class D amp than I would ever get from convincing anyone else to use a class D amp. My main intent, based on my personal experience, is usually just spreading the word that class D amps were a very good choice in my system with my inefficient Magnepan speakers. My expectation is that some individuals will find my comments useful, some will be offended and most won't give a sh$t.
noble100 "Oh, and just to guarantee fairness and honesty, it is stipulated that your failure to respond on this thread will be an admission that class D amps have the highest Signal to Noise Ratios of all the amp types and, therefore, can be scientifically declared as the quietest amp type. "
Well here you have my little response to you're "stipulation" of "facts" and demand that I share with you research again that I have already provided and that you have dismissed, ignored, or refuted based on your deeply held cherished beliefs.
I was expecting a list of amp types with their SNR specs ranked from highest SNR to lowest. But there's really no reason for you to respond, I think everyone reading this thread understands by now that class D amps are the quietest amp type.
I too, would be interested in your evidence to back up this claim. Of course there are low end class-D amps, i.e. cell phones, low end car stereos, etc. that are "noisy", but in general, class-D and variants of it are very low noise, and if direct digital, very low noise. This is not surprising since it is inherent in their operation. They don't suffer from amplified flicker noise, amplified Schott noise, etc. in the same way that traditional amplifiers do.
I am curious as to what measurement devices you used. Can you provide the make / model and perhaps what firmware version you were using at the time?
clearthink914 posts10-21-2019 2:16pmnoble100"Anyone who claims class D amps are noisy has obviously never listened to one"
This is wholly, completely, and utterly false, speculative, and prejudiced not only have some of us "listened' we have also actually "measured" using reliable, repeatable, objective measurement techniques that are recognized by engineers, scientists, and industry as fitting, proper, and appropriate but of course if you are happy with Class D you should absolutely enjoy it but you're reasoning, arguments, and suspicions are unfounded and false.
This is wholly, completely, and utterly false,
speculative, and prejudiced not only have some of us "listened' we have
also actually "measured" using reliable, repeatable, objective
measurement techniques that are recognized by engineers, scientists, and
industry as fitting, proper, and appropriate but of course if you are
happy with Class D you should absolutely enjoy it but you're reasoning,
arguments, and suspicions are unfounded and false.
Wow. Because of the unqualified way in which this is stated, it renders the statement false.
I have a little Topping class D amp that makes 30 watts per channel. It has a lower signal to noise ratio than a Realistic SA-175 amp (despite the fact that the Realistic only makes 10 watts) we have in the shop that is rebuilt (being nearly 50 years old). In case anyone is wondering why I have an old Realistic amplifier hanging around, I put myself through college working at the regional Radio Shack repair center in the Twin Cities, and I enjoy troubleshooting and rebuilding work as a hobby; this amp is definitely a bit of nostalgia and its cute. I rebuilt the matching tuner too.
In our work the main thing that we've seen that contributes to noise in a class D has to do with the encoding scheme- in our case, Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). PWM relies on the use of a triangle wave generator and a comparitor that compares the incoming audio signal to the triangle wave and thus has an output that is either on or off. If the triangle wave generator is not perfectly steady in its frequency, or if there is a bit of DC offset at the input of the comparitor, the result can be a bit of white noise hiss in the loudspeaker. With fairly simple techniques this noise can be reduced to noise floors that are less than conventional amplifiers.
Niodari, Check out ATI. They make ncore based amps from 2-8 channels. Come in 200 WPC and 500 WPC. I needed 200 watts and 8 channels. Driving Linkwitz Orion speakers which use an active crossover. Each driver gets an amp channel.
The sound is high end. Huge stage, precise images and natural timbre. The sound reflects the front end. Changes in upstream equipment are easily audible. ATI uses a large linear power supply. No SMPS power. I listen about 12 hours a day. Every day. Jazz and classical primarily. No listener fatigue here. Enjoy Kevin
Thanks @sumaato for sharing your experience with using different pres for PS audio Stellar S300 amp, and thanks @darstar for letting me know about ATI class D amp (yet unknown for me). Did you select an integrated one or otherwise which preamp are you using?
As to the use of preamplifiers, I suggest that if the source signal is good (and it has volume control) then this signal does not need to be altered before it comes to a power amp. In general, why the source signal should be altered in case you have a good DAC?
I suppose that a good pre should not alter the signal coming from the source. Its like if someone does not like a salted meal. You still give him a salted meal suggesting to add much sugar to it so that to compensate the excess of salt. As a result, you get much salt and much sugar (but you just wanted a meal without salt, that's all).
Can someone please list the Top to Midrange Class-D options on the market at present and the relative MSRP? The Merrill 118 is fantastic but tooooo expensive. Give me some options <$10k and I'm not one that believes something is better just because it costs more so if you know of an outstanding $700 amp, bring it on.
The Amp will be used in a bi-amp system handling the frequencies below 200Hz so a high damping factor may be a positive... or not.
darkstar on his ATI amp:" The sound is high end. Huge stage, precise images and natural timbre. The sound reflects the front end. Changes in upstream equipment are easily audible. ATI uses a large linear power supply. No SMPS power. I listen about 12 hours a day. Every day. Jazz and classical primarily. No listener fatigue here."
As an owner and user of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks, I consider this a very good description of what to expect from the inclusion of a high quality class D amp or amps in one's system. I haven't yet had the opportunity to audition an ATI amp in my or any system, but darkstar's description of the ATI's performance characteristics closely resemble the performance characteristics that I've perceived in my amps over the past 4 plus years in my system on both 2-ch music and HT playback. I also read this Sound & Vision review on a couple of ATI amps that further supports their high quality:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-at527nc-and-at524nc-amplifiers-review I 've read that many of the ATI amps utilize the newer and highly respected Hypex NCore500 class D power modules. These are likely an important contributor to the high quality sound performance. These ATI amps also utilize conventional toiroidal transformers as part of their power supplies. It seems like some believe the use of conventional toroidal transformers in the power supplies of class D amps results in superior performance when compared to the newer switch mode power supplies (SMPS) used in other high quality class D amps. All 3 of the class D amps I use in my system happen to have power supplies using conventional toroidal transformers but I've listened to many other class D amps utilizing SMPS. In my listening experiences, I've never perceived any noticeable sound quality advantage of either power supply types. Overall, I consider the ATI amps a very good high quality class D amp option that I also consider a bit overpriced.
As for ecological concerns, at low power levels, where most amps operate
during most listening, even class D amps are inefficient.
This statement is incorrect. The efficiency of a class D amp is such that at higher power levels its power draw is similar to conventional amps. But at lower power levels a class D amp draws considerably less power!
I've never listened to any Cherry, Nuprime or ATI amps, but I've read good reviews on all of them. I don't currently have any knowledge or experience that would lead me to think any one of them is the best. I know there are a lot of good quality class D amps, such as the ones you mentioned, as well as many others. My suggestion is to do as much research as you can on class D amps by reading audio forum discussions on class D amps as well as owner and professional reviews online. Start a list or spreadsheet of all possible candidates that lists Company, Model Number, Type(monoblock or stereo), Condition (new or used),Price and a Notes section for important related info. You can also do Google searches on particular brands/models to obtain more specific and even comparison info. I'll get you started by listing some good quality class D companies to consider and other thread readers, hopefully, will chime in with others to consider. Since I don't know your budget, I can't currently limit my suggestions by price but it's very useful if you could post your budget as well as primary usage (music, HT or both), number of desired channels (monoblock single channel, stereo 2-ch or multi-ch with ? channels). Here's my starter list:
ATI Acoustic Imagery Anthem Arcam Atmasphere (first class D amp from this tube amp company. Release date TBD.) Bel Canto B&K Audio Cherry Channel Islands Class D Audio Classe Devialet D-Sonic Hypex (class D power module and power supply manufacturer for DIY amp kits) James Romeyn (Hypex NCore400 amp kit builder) Kii Audio Linn Lyndorf Marantz Merrill Audio Mola Mola NAD Nord Red Dragon (all new upgraded models coming late 2019.) Outlaw Peachtree Primare Purifi Rogue Audio Sunfire Theta Wyred 4 Sound
I've owned 3 class d amps over the past five years. The Crown XLS 2000 at $500 did some things right and some things wrong: good low end, ok midrange, bright top end, huge soundstage but two dimensional, and somewhat blurred detail...but for $500....kept this amp for several years.
I also owned a Nuprime STA-9...their class a/class d hybrid said to emulate the tube sound; $700, better low end...better detail...slightly more three dimensional but somewhat bright (in my system at least) in the upper midrange and top end....kept this amp for a couple months.
Now I own the Digital Amplifier Company 2Cherry...$2400 (for the past 6 months)...and for that increase in price, you would hope/expect that things would be a lot better...and they are, the best amp (including tube amps and class a/ab amps) that I have ever owned (so far?). Great detail, great clarity, great soundstage, life like realism (in my system with Salk loudspeakers with RAAL tweeters). No weaknesses...not a hint of brightness.
My advice...since amps DO sound different....and since class d amps are generally lighter in weight and less expensive to return....try 2 or 3 of them at the same time and send those back that don't give you the sound you are looking for....$50+- if return freight is nothing compared to getting to hear them in your home, on your system with your music.
snapsc: "My advice...since amps DO sound different....and since class d amps are generally lighter in weight and less expensive to return....try 2 or 3 of them at the same time and send those back that don't give you the sound you are looking for....$50+- if return freight is nothing compared to getting to hear them in your home, on your system with your music."
I think this is a good idea once you narrow your list down to amps you'd like to audition. Most class D amps are sold internet direct and offer free in-home trial periods for a certain number of weeks stipulating you can return it for a full refund with no questions asked, and sometimes with free return shipping. But I agree with snapsc that even paying a reasonable charge is worth it to hear it in your system and room. You could even add a column for "Trial Period" that lists the offered in-home trial period in days or weeks. The only downside is that, in my experience, class D amps take a while to properly 'break-in' and perform optimally which could be longer than the trial period. However, the three class D amps I own sounded very good right out of the box but still kept improving in sound quality over a number of weeks after until the sound quality stabilized at each amp's optimum quality level. The danger being that the ultimately best sounding amp just happens to have the longest 'break-in' time and the in-home trial period was too short for you to discover this. All of my class D amps have been on 24/7 for over 5 years now and are still operating flawlessly (knock on my head). I suspect their low internal operating temps likely only increases their lifespans but this currently lacks scientific, objective and independent validation. If longevity concerns you, you could also add a column on your list for warranty length and terms.
I did not know, Tim, that all these brands produce Class D amps. It would be virtually impossible to verify all of them (but will make a search for some of them) and given that i live in Mexico, buying and returning would not be really feasible.
Although I am not yet completely convinced that it is already time to buy (another) class D amp, i am still desperate to try one more because i like class D concept. I listen to 2-channel systems (no home theater!) and could take an option of a stereo amp or monoblocks. Naturally, i would only consider a candidate with a high coefficient *performance/price* according to my vision of class D concept.
@snapsc, your impressions on 2-Cherry after trying two other (known for me) class D amps are important for me. I was also inclined to a Cherry amp. The biggest and supposedly best one is
Megaschino (should be very good at $6900 in class D), then comes Gold Cherry with the same price i think and Cherry 2 with a much more accessible price. My question is, which of these three models maximize ratio
*performance/price* ? Did someone compare these three?
If you're looking for the highest performance/price class D amp and don'[t mind buying used, I think the Merrill Audio Veritas monoblocks are a great option to consider. Reviews on these amps claim they're among the best performing amps available regardless of amp type or price. They sold new a few years ago for $12,000/pair but I've recently seen numerous ads from owners with an average asking price of about $5,000/pair. Merrill audio recently came out with a new lineup of Element amps utilizing extremely fast switching GaN transistors that virtually eliminate 'dead-time' which significantly reduces distortion and improves sound quality. These include the Element 114 which is a stereo amp priced at $15,000 and 2 monoblocks, the Element 116 and Element 118 priced at $23,000 and $36,000/pair respectively. I'm thinking the reason numerous ads are appearing for used pairs of Veritas amps is due to current owners of Veritas monoblocks planning on buying one of the Element amps and are selling their Veritas monoblocks in preparation. I strongly believe you'll prefer the sound quality performance of the Veritas amps over the Cherry amps but I can't know this with certainty. Here's one of many good reviews on th Veritas:
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