Thoughts from THE Show, is $29k the new $10k?

Whats funny about the discussion about hearing here on this thread, Is the fact I have listened to these speakers of today that go up to 40khz!, and one of the best speakers I have ever heard only went up to 16khz!, and there is nothing wrong with my hearing at all, the 16khz speakers were horn speakers that was incrediblely detailed on the treble, etc.., they just sounded very good, they were 101 sensativity to boot!, cheers!

Almost all the rooms with UHA RTR sounded really really good. How I missed the MBL room is beyond me but the best one was the room with that German solid state electronics and speakers driven by UHB. The same room where on left there was the Ayon electronics driven by a UHA RTR too (sounded great). And on left rear there was Lamm 2.2 amps.

Except the J-corder room, except those RTR were Modded Technics and really cool looking but driven by OK electronics.

Those RTR are really interesting and worth looking in to.

Totem room was impressive.

This is why a loudspeaker MUST be relieving, accurate, and nimble the passive transducer needs to do what she is told..and the electronics tell her what she'll sound like this is loudspeaker 101!!! The transducer is to deliver all the music without any truncation let the electronics fit the sound of the end user. We used beautiful Lamm amplifiers with the Berlin R at the show and sound varied by the recordings some were soft, some had balance some played fast bass some were mushy..It's damn near impossible to quantify the sound of just the loudspeaker as the synergy of the whole which obviously includes the recordings, the genre, and the preference of the listener.

I like very open fast sound with lots of detail open transient bass and I generally dislike the sound of speakers with 10 mile long crossovers, ones without a port or vent and ones with obvious sonic gaps.

Just for reference, I did hear a number of rooms playing open reel (RTR) but none of them were even close to the MBL room. As mentioned, they were playing Hugh Masekela's record Hope in the MBL room. My friend bought it after the show and shared it with me this last weekend. The Redbook CD is pretty stunning here at home; one of the best mastered CDs I've ever heard. I've got an SACD copy on the way to compare and have been told it is even better. Anyway, source aside, MBL is what I'd have if money weren't an object or it grew on trees. Not all that exciting to look at but surely the most beautiful to listen to.

ITs funny (or not) how the AMerican way is to encourage more and more buying as a means of keeping the economy going.

What's needed is more and more learning combined with high standards so more people can actually earn more as opposed to just spending and buying more.

Its kinda scary. Thank god there is a global economy at least to help keep the ship overall afloat!

Quad-man,

Welcome to the new world order.

I suppose as more and more Chinese become wealthy and inflation kicks in there accordingly, the next less developed economy out there will come in to pick up the slack when it comes to low paying jobs that help keep cost of goods low.

It just seems like a natural cycle to me. Just like baseball stars price themselves out of the market and then young guys just getting started with similar skills pick up the slack.

I work for a small high-end loudspeaker company and I'll tell you that everything is so expensive and really makes one understand why Chinese manufacturing is so popular. First; What should be an 80-250 dollar euro driver which is a magnet frame, spider, and cone is now $600-1,000 each "wholesale" and sounds like an $80.00 to 200 dollar Chinese copy. American craft workers want 35-60.00 per hour we pay $50.00 per hour fine woods and veneers have gone 10 fold in the last 10 years screws to sandpaper is all more $$$..Bottom line is everything truly artisan is about 8-10 times higher.. good thing we are all earning 10 times more LOL!!!

Look hard for the companies offering lower cost great equipment: they are there. For speakers, start with Revel, a company that makes superlative speakers below $10k. The fact is, folks pay MUCH more attention to the expensive stuff, then the same folks cry that it's too expensive. If you happen to be into cars, do you go out of the way to see a $15k car? No, but I bet you cross the street to see a Bugatti. Same in Audio. There are lots of great value pieces. And lots of way way way overpriced pieces. But remember, there are some expensive pieces that really perform superlatively, so not all the big boys are ripoffs. Just most of them are!

"The MBL room playing an open reel at 15ips. This was by far the best room for me as well as the friend that accompanied me. Unbelievable resolution, wonderful clean lively sound, top to bottom. We first visited the room in the morning and Hugh Masekela was playing Stimela from the album Hope. This amazingly clean, well-produced and mastered material really demonstrated the wonderfulness of the MBL 101s."

Yes, similar mbl RTR master tape demo at United Home Audio shop near DC is still probably the best and biggest home audio sound I have heard in recent years. Standard phono and CD demos on same rig was still stellar but not to the same level of overall perfection.

I was wrong (looked at the official website and had coverage for only two shows). Anyway, it was actually the third annual event.

(this is a cross post from another show thread)

The 2nd Annual T.H.E. Show Newport Beach was pretty fun. I’ve never been to a hi-end show of any kind and being that the event was being held only five miles from my house, it was an easy decision.

Here are my show favorites. -

The MBL room playing an open reel at 15ips. This was by far the best room for me as well as the friend that accompanied me. Unbelievable resolution, wonderful clean lively sound, top to bottom. We first visited the room in the morning and Hugh Masekela was playing Stimela from the album Hope. This amazingly clean, well-produced and mastered material really demonstrated the wonderfulness of the MBL 101s. I have Martin Logan Vantages and so this sound was right up my alley – I know they don’t compare, this is just for your reference. We specifically went back later that evening to hear The Talking Heads – Stop Making Sense and Pink Floyd – Darkside of the Moon. This second session really reinforced to my friend and I that the MBLs are something special. This room was an all MBL setup with the exception of the open reel. The system could be played quite loud and yet no fatigue at all. The louder it got the better it sounded. Really amazing.

I really felt the McIntosh room sounded excellent. I very much liked the floor standing speakers that were driven by a tube pre and the MC452 SS amp. They were also using the MEN220 and their power distribution component. All of these components really played nicely together. I must note that I am a McIntosh fan, though all this equipment is out of my league. This is also my first time to hear the McIntosh speakers and they were a treat. I don’t know what model they were and couldn’t find them on McIntosh’s website.

The IG room was pretty awesome as well. Really nice smooth but dynamic sound. I forget what electronics were used, but the sound was pretty stunning. It was easy to stay in that room for a bit of a rest and enjoyment.
Finally, I thought that the Empirical Audio room sounded pretty nice. Got to meet Steve and chat for a few minutes. The sign outside the door noted that the whole setup in the room retailed for $32,000. The sound was very clean and what I really focused on was the midrange and upper end because I wanted to know what the Offramp was doing. I’m not sure I heard cymbals sound any better at the show. So clear and precise, no fuzz or timing errors. Just really sounded like cymbals. It would have been nice to hear that setup in a larger room.

Like some others commented, there were many systems that were lack luster at best. Many with six-figure pricing. If the folks setting up these rooms didn’t have the skill set to get it done properly, they shouldn’t have misspent the money. For instance, I really wanted to hear several pieces including the Modwright Oppo 105. The only reason I spent anytime in that room was to look at that piece of gear up close. Also, wanted to hear the AtmaSphere tube pre/amp gear. I left that room rather fast after taking a closer look at the pre and amps as well. Just very bland non-stimulating sound. I’ve no doubt both could have performed better based on all the positive comments here on the Gon.

Overall, I thought the show was great. My friend and I are already planning to go again next year.

I was at an ENT dr. last week due to a case of tinnitus I picked up about a month ago from a sinus infection that followed a 10-day Florida trip. Severe ringing in 1 ear for about 3 weeks until the antibiotics and steroids finally started to work.

The dr. did a number of hearing test on both my ears an said I was at about 70% recovered in the tinnitus ear so far, and that my other ear had the sensitivity of that of a 10-year old, which I took to be a pretty good thing(as in 0 hearing loss). I too am bothered by high-pitched sounds that others seem to be oblivious to. That would seem to directly contradict some of the statements above on hearing loss. I am 54 and listen to my system at least 2-3 hours per day.

Sorry to further derail this thread, but thought this input to be of some value to the above discussion.

There is a free iPad app from Siemens that makes you delineate similar
sounding sibilant squacks against background noise. I have a tough time
with that one. Not frequency test, per se. There are a bunch of those
available on line.

"Notice how the sensitivity decreases around 1kHz which just happens to be the upper end of the female voice? I think this chart is based on data from married men :)"

"what a piece of work is man..."

Natural Selection at it's finest.

Notice how the sensitivity decreases around 1kHz which just happens to be the upper end of the female voice? I think this chart is based on data from married men :)

Audio Frequency Chart

Also provides linked info on ideal human ear sensitivity at the various frequencies.

"u must be an alien from another planet. I have worked extensively with the House Hearing Institute. They have performed more detailed hearing tests on more human beings than any group in the world. No males over 50 have ever heard over 10.5 KHz. No one. Over 94% cannot hear over 8.2 kHz. "

Well, I am not from another planet, but I am not familiar with the stats so can't say. My test may not have been perfect and I last did it a couple years back. Can you provide a reference to the research?

Even in the case of 8.2K, you still would hear most of the music produced by most any common instrument according to charts I have seen indicating such things, including a significant portion of the treble/upper midrange. The ability to hear "air" would be diminished even further I suppose.

I would agree that this hobby is snakeoil ridden, but I can also state positively without personal doubt that I am able to hear differences with many subtle tweaks including ICs and power.

I also agree that hearing up to 20khz, as I have measured when young, can be a mixed blessing. A lot of noise occurs there and not a lot of music. That could work to ones detriment in terms of musical enjoyment. I know I enjoy the sound of music more than ever as I get older.

Wouldn't be interesting if audio critics and reviewers had their hearing ability quantitatively certified and published before publishing their opinions? What about also if the general public could similarly if desired? That might help match up like-eared listeners and critics. The landscape of high end audio would probably look a lot different, probably for the better.

I also have my hospital birth certificate with my footprints on it. I wonder if my feet would still match the lines just on a larger scale?

Grege: you're kidding, right? I just checked again to make sure and I can still hear 16kHz. I'm 54. Up through my late 40s I could still hear 20kHz, if it was loud. That surprised me because back then I expected it to have fallen off by then. It used to be painful for me back in the 70s and 80s to walk into a department store that had a wall of Television sets on display. I could easily hear the 19kHz whistle from the flyback transformer in a TV. An entire wall of TVs whistling was torture. My parents and even my brothers didn't know what I was talking about. My two boys can hear 20kHz, so I know my speakers are working up that high. I'm glad my hearing has dropped off. Those frequencies are annoying. My boys just complained about the high frequency noise when I did this test. I'm not alien, I was born in Indiana and I have a legitimate birth certificate as proof.

Grege,
I have tested my hearing on various Internet sites with varying results. Can you point us to an online test that we could reliably use to test our hearing?

High end audio goes back over a hundred years. Edison made a high end phonograph around 1900 that cost $250 when the average wage was about $400/year. That would be comparable to roughly $18k today? So "The American Dream" of wanting more of the best goes back a long way. And like someone said, the trickle down effect is what we all count on. The wealthy get it first and eventually the costs/prices come down to a more affordable level. After all, I could spend 5 bucks at a garage sale today for just about any turntable and easily out perform Edison's 1905 era high end phonograph.
I got to go to a CES in 1989 in Chicago. I spent the entire day across the street at the high end audio exhibition where everyone had to set up in hotel rooms. One of the best days of my life hearing and seeing all types of equipment and music. I still have vivid memories of some of those remarkable demonstrations as well as some of the "snake oil" products. I envy your opportunities on the West Coast to see and hear these shows. It has to be great and of course it is going to showcase some expensive gear. You wouldn't show up to an important interview in scuzzy shorts and a t-shirt would you?

>>I am 53 and can hear relatively well up to 12 or 13 Khz.

You must be an alien from another planet. I have worked extensively with the House Hearing Institute. They have performed more detailed hearing tests on more human beings than any group in the world. No males over 50 have ever heard over 10.5 KHz. No one. Over 94% cannot hear over 8.2 kHz.

But this is a hobby where Jon Atkinson (the current audio god) claims to hear close to 20 KHz in his fifties. He also hears vast differences in cables, cones, etc. This is all to be expected in a hobby where entry level speakers cost $29K. Audio is largely a Voodoo/Placebo hobby.

Hope to attend the upcoming Capital Audiofest in July and hear some new things. Looks like a good lineup worth checking out. I was at the inaugural 2 years ago and that was good. Plus it seems to grow each year.

06-13-12: Nonoise
I didn't know the Evolution Acoustic MMMicro Ones were only $2500. I had a quick listen and was really impressed but thought that they were one of the expensive ones due to the quality of the cabinetry.

Hi Nonoise - I've heard the EA micros at two different shows. The first time, I didn't know anything about them. After 5 minutes of listening, I tried to guess how much they cost. The number I came up with $8,000. When Jonathan Tinn told me the price, I was shocked.

Now if only he can get the things shipped. Lots of production delays. Too bad, because this speaker has the potential to raise awareness about EA, which IMO they deserve. Hopefully, they'll work things out.

Bryon

P.S. I have no financial or personal relationship with Jonathan Tinn or Evolution Acoustics.

FWIW, I'd be willing to bet that if someone did a study, there would be a strong correlation between age groups and the kinds of systems that they think sound best or worst. Less so for the ones they think just sound good.

Whart...no need...at my age it will take me days to recover from such a wordy post.

Bryon,

I didn't know the Evolution Acoustic MMMicro Ones were only $2500. I had a quick listen and was really impressed but thought that they were one of the expensive ones due to the quality of the cabinetry. Very impressive sound.

Mribob,

You put those on your short list as well along with the Atohm GT-1s.

All the best,
Nonoise

Maybe we should start another thread on this, Wolf-Garcia. That highly touted Shelby Lynne record (at least the audiophile pressing) was recorded by Al Schmidt and produced by Phil Ramone. Neither of those guys is a youngster.

People over 50 were likely involved in much of the design of the speakers, amps, wire, and front end components you hear, the mastering of the music you buy, the conducting and performing of much of the classical, jazz, or whatever stuff you might like, and every other aspect of music reproduction. I'm over 50 and am currently a sought after professional live sound technician/recording engineer (and musician/composer), and my experience when working with many younger (a lot younger) sound mixers is they (not ALL of course) can be completely clueless and have tin ears, to put it mildly. Nothing makes up for experience and taste it would seem...example: Patty Larkin (I name names in case this can somehow get back to the culprit) brought a young dude along to mix for her at a concert venue I had system-designed, mixed, and recorded successfully for many years. A sold out show...This guy had a "degree" in some music related technical field and worked in a studio someplace so I assumed he had a clue...man...No idea how to use trim pots (on a standard pro Mackie board no less) for mic level, no idea how to utilize clean amplification without compression or excessive EQ, a monitor mix nightmare episode, and it all resulted in the ONLY gig where other pro musicians in the crowd, along with some regular audience members, actually said the sound kinda sucked. This happened again for a sold out Janis Ian show (I can't kick out the artist's little mixer friend, can I?) and it was a cringe worthy episode of my having to rescue the hapless "sound chick". Lesson learned: Generally speaking, as far as taste and a refined ability to discern sound quality goes, young people can kiss my ass.

I also liked Jonathan Tinn's room, both analog and digital rigs. I, too, was impressed with the little Evolution speakers, although they were being pushed by some mighty expensive gear. I don't think anyone mentioned the first floor Hilton room showing Concert Fidelity electronics and Estelon speakers. We are north of the $30K speaker mark here, but I very much liked the Estelon's natural presentation of small ensemble music. The room was huge and the ceiling high, which no doubt helped. Speakers were 3-way design, and I would like to have heard them playing full-on orchestral music, but that was not the fare I heard.

I think Honeybee2012 is just trying to get a buzz out of us.

On his "over 50", I'd agree with him but then we'd both be wrong.

I attended The Show. I was only there for a day, so I missed a great many things, but here are some of the things I liked: Evolution Acoustics, Rockport, Daedalus, Marten.

I certainly don't think you need to spend $29K on speakers to get great sound. The Evolution Acoustics micros are going for $2500, and they were remarkable. The Daedalus Athenas are $8950, and they sounded and looked beautiful. Both are a lot less than $29K.

As for the hearing thing, which doesn't have anything to do with the OP, I agree with Whart: the diminishment of high frequency hearing is more than compensated for by the honed perception that comes with age and experience. That's not just sour grapes talking. I'm under 40, so my high frequency hearing hasn't completely gone the way of the Dodo.

Bryon

"I know, I'll just get me a 20 something year old girlfriend. No, that won't work either. My 50+ year old plumbing would probably prevent me from enjoying that,too."

OR the other way around....(insert smiley face).

Viagra would be the right tweak maybe....

Hey people; I didn't expect this post to drift off into this level of 'bashing'....I was hoping that other people who enjoyed THE Show would be able to share their experiences of what they heard, what they liked, what stuff were they able to audition only at a show like this that was of interest...it was only a 'side' comment about the pricing of some of the gear that I thought interesting...
Hey, what about those BMC speakers? Does the ART room treatments really work; and if so, how? Yes, at some level our hobby has gotten expensive; this is my main vice, my wife doesn't understand why I'm buying new cables, but to my ears they complete my system; and now I can just enjoy the music. I purchased some of my gear last year as show 'demos' at good discounts, my steady dealers, that I try to support also provide decent discounts, I've bought some good used gear, and have carefully put together my 'dream' system that I fantasized about when I was back in college. I will update my system page shortly...many folks have assembled their own dream systems for a lot less than I paid...but that's whats unique about our hobby; you can gain enterance at many different levels..in the end to me its not about the 'absolute' best send, but simply enjoying the music, helping me chill out after a hard day of work; and taking pride in creating a system that works...for me, and my friends....if I've spent 'crazy' money on my system; that's only on me and my budget...not all expensive speakers sound great, not all inexpensive speakers sound poorly..after this is hobby, not a economic forum

My high frequency hearing has substantially diminished with age (I'm close to 60), but my sensibility about what makes good musical sound is more attuned than ever. I spend alot of time hearing real music and have always been very critical of midrange reproduction, having lived with the old Quad for decades. So, when i hear 'spectacular' hi-fi systems, often made up of over the top, "best of category" at a given moment in time, they often don't sound like music systems, they sound like exaggerated hi-fi: impressive, but not musically satisfying, at least in show and or dealer environments. This may be partly a function of wanting to attract listeners in a 'sales' environment (shows are ultimately about moving product) and partly a function of equipment choices that are not necessarily ideal as a 'system.'
That may mean that some of the pricey newest latest and greatest can sound way better when properly set up in a home with the right associated equipment. I think I am a pretty quick study in terms of getting a sense of what a piece of equipment sounds like, but without being able to eliminate all the variables in a strange system and strange room, I can't make a meaningful assessment of a specific piece of equipment.

06-12-12: Honeybee2012
Anyone over 50 years of age can not tell the difference between $10K and $100K of speaker. It is a fact of aging. Sorry. Save your money, buy something you like at a reasonable price. Give the other $90K to the homeless.

Damn, it really chaps my ass to find out I've been wasting money on audio equipment!!!!

I guess I need to sell all my stuff and buy a sports car. No wait, my 50+ year old reflexes would probably prevent me from being able to handle one.

I know, I'll just get me a 20 something year old girlfriend. No, that won't work either. My 50+ year old plumbing would probably prevent me from enjoying that,too.

Honeybee2012, are you really as clueless as your comment makes you out to be?

"Anyone over 50 years of age can not tell the difference between $10K and $100K of speaker. It is a fact of aging."

Not exactly. Ability to hear high frequencies diminishes with age usually the case with those over 50 like myself, but most can still hear very well the frequencies where 90%+ of the music occurs plus ears become trained over years of listening to be able to pick up subtle differences better.

I am 53 and can hear relatively well up to 12 or 13 Khz. When I was 18, I could hear to 20khz. I have actually measured this using the same reference source material over the years so I can speak pretty certainly about this. "air" is one aspect of sound affected by not hearing those frequencies well. Also detail to some extent.

The fact that people so not all hear the same is a big reason why there is always such a variety of quality gear to chose from at all price points and why few chose the same things.

In my case I am able to hear clear differences with most changes I make to my rig, some subtle like with ICs, power conditioning, some more significant like amps, pre-amps, DACs, certainly speakers, etc.

Honeybee2012, it seems that making comments that have no basis in fact may be also be a sign of aging; for some. I am over 50, and I know that I and many 50+ yr olds I know can easily tell the difference. Wether that difference makes it "better" or not is an entirely different discussion.

There is a thought-provoking article in the new TAS by Dennis Prager on a related subject. Recommended reading!

Bad hearing? The sky is the limit when it comes to cost, and the speaker companies know that most Americans don't care how much something costs, just how much the monthly payments are. Maybe 90K speakers do sound better than 10K speakers, but they should. There's always the chance they might not. Go ahead, spend 90K, you'll thank me now, and kick yourself later. But I'll still have good sounding speakers and my money.

Anyone over 50 years of age can not tell the difference between $10K and $100K of speaker. It is a fact of aging.

This is surprising. My impression is that many people over fifty claim to be able to detect differences between speakers much closer in price (say Bose vs. Magnepan). I'd been inclined to believe them, but maybe I shouldn't have. Is the 90k difference undetectable even when it goes to radically different implementation (say horns v. planars)?

John

As far as show sound is concerned, I helped out at a show last year, by lending my speakers for the duration of a show. They were built in the US, the show was in England, so it was much easier and cheaper to use mine. I watched the set up, which was scrupulous and detailed, for hours and the sound next day was pretty good. The room was an insoluble problem though, The ceiling in particular, had loose foam tiles sitting in multiple square metal brackets. You could see them jumping about with low frequency sound, nothing you can do about that.

The basic problem many manufacturers seem to make, is to bring their top of the range, full range speakers, to use in a small hotel room. It just is'nt going to work. Why don't they bring smaller floorstanders or monitors? I am sure that is why cheaper systems often sound better at shows, than the megabucks ones

Anyone over 50 years of age can not tell the difference between $10K and $100K of speaker. It is a fact of aging. Sorry. Save your money, buy something you like at a reasonable price. Give the other $90K to the homeless.

Martin Logan Statements with big Krells is one of the best systems I've ever heard.

PS when I first become interested in hifi gear in late 1980's,
a great super amp costed around $5000-8000, may be only Jadis had something in excess of $10,000 that I could recalled.
Only a few speakers were over $10,000 like Infinity IRS beta and something like Martin Logan Statement/ IRS V seemed like something that I could only dream of.

Now, certainly I can afford the price range of those super equipments (inflation not included) but they are now nowhere near the uppermost brackets.Personally, that does not bother me at all. I am interested in getting the best that I can afford without financial strain. Presence of out of reach items is a common occurence in just about all things. The market will weed out the unworthy product. I don't need to be price police or get upset over those pricing myself and I am sure I don't need to be the chaperone for audiophile.

Peterayer, I understand your comment but I supposed I was not really trying to explain why the sound is bad at show. Just general observation that the sound is bad. Even equipments that I am familiar with and know what they are capable of, having heard them either at home or elsewhere usually sound worse at show.

I am not sure what the main culprit is. Rooms may not be ideal but again, I heard a lot of systems that are not in dedicated listening room, my system included, that sound better than at show. Wall construction of usual hotel room is probably not ideal for stereo equipment either. Lots of demanding equipments sucking all the powers from multiple rooms at the same time probably does not help.

Generally I just feel that a show can only give me a glimpse of what the system is truly capable of. If they sound acceptable at show, they are likely to impress me a lot in another environment. Even system that sounds downright bad usually sound better elsewhere.

It is fun visit a show but it is not the place I would make my final judgement on the quality of the equipment for sure. I have not attend shows in the US for a long time so I have no idea how the rooms that get voted best sound at show etc really sound like or if they are much better than what is heard over here. However, for what's its worth, a friend who attends CES every year told me that at CES, the sound is not any better than what we hear at a local show here.

Suteetat, I must not have been clear enough or you misunderstood my post. I agree with you that I have rarely heard a system sound really good at a show. And coming home is a treat for me also. Nevertheless, it is fun to see/hear the latest stuff at shows and meet some of the people involved in the hobby.

"Equipment is not broken in yet", "the room is lousy", "didn't have enough time to properly set up the system" are all excuses that I have heard from vendors or read in the show reports from reviewers for why some special system did not sound great at a particular show. Or "it sounded much better on the third day or during that private listening session with my own music that only we insiders were lucky enough to hear, etc, etc."

One would think that at these prices and assuming that the vendor wants to impress a captive audience, that he would do whatever is required to get the most out of a system at a show. The other problem is that too often people talk during the demonstrations. That's usually when I leave.

"My beef with the hifi scene is the utter lack of any interest in engaging the general public"

HiFi scene: "buy expensive turntables and tube amps. THey sound the best."

General public: "Where do I plug in my ear buds?"

My system is a "panache free zone" and sounds great, including my Chinese tube amp. My beef with the hifi scene is the utter lack of any interest in engaging the general public. Stage a concert? HA! Put out publicity anywhere but in the magazines catering to the choir? No no no. Really...maybe bring back an audio writer to the New York Times who isn't focused on iPads and large screen video. Multi millionaire Neil Young gets 5 minutes of publicity for his anti Red Box stance while selling millions of Red Box CDs and downloads, and the local "audio salons" can't even manage an email newsletter. A strange world.

What we are seeing in the hi-fi business is a microcosm of the retail business at large- luxury goods makers are directing their products to big ticket items, and that sector has the ability to buy stuff at the stratosphere of price. As a business model it may be hard to fault, given the alternative. I understand that China was a viable market for equipment of a size and price that would otherwise be unmarketable elsewhere in the world. Of course that may change as the world economy slows or remains in turmoil, but hi fi is not unique in this respect. If you had the choice between making a $10,000 product and selling 100 units or a $100,000 unit and selling ten of them, I have little doubt what choice would be made. Not defending the industry, but like any business, they will go where the market is. Of course, there is still real world entry level, but much of it is designed in one place (Europe or America) and built where the labor is cheap, to get to a price point. And, while I have no first hand experience with, for example, relatively inexpensive tube electronics coming out of China, for example, my impression is that it is pretty good stuff, at least competitive, even if it doesn't have the panache, or the 'overbuilt' quality of say, an ARC faceplate on the front.