This e-mail has been cryogenically treated

I don’t normally comment on these forums, but this one was a no brainer. Erik is absolutely correct, there is no way to verify whether something has been Cryo Treated or not. I at least mention the company that I use on my site, but other than that you’re on your own. I do know for a fact what it does, and why it does it, and beyond that it’s a trust factor. I have no reason to mislead, or lie to anyone, it would only bite me in ass later. The bottom line is...does the product produce a better sound, in your opinion? Has it made changes in your system that weren’t there before? Were the dollars spent a true value, or not? If it does any, or all of this, then I’d say that the supplier/manufacturer has done his or her job. Then I would say yes, it was Cryo Treated. If it falls short of your expectations, then I would question the validity of the supplier. When using "The Right" metals, Cryo Treatment can make a HUGE difference. If you treat the wrong metals, and you use an unknown cryo company, you’ll get what you pay for.

     Some Cargo Cultists build runways.

     Others: control towers, or install fake landing lights.

                          Let  'em!

                        Who cares?

                      Happy listening!

@fredrik222 We need to be able to measure gullibility.....

I hope your cold stare doesn't freeze anyone out or you'll hear from me.  Or maybe you won't.

"Oh, for cryo'in out loud...."

I had to go there...;)  Makes me want to have my mortal remains freeze-dried, just 'cuz....

Now, I'll go away...😏

Do carry on....

                          In keeping with the thread's theme, I'll rephrase:

       And some want to make categorical proclamations/pontifications, as to whether it's possible for cables, constructed with knowledge gleaned since 1927, about CRYOGENICS, QM, QED and electromagnetism, MIGHT make a difference in one's system.

       Far as determining whether they indeed are cryo'd: street cred builds TRUST, in my book and it's hard to fool EVERYONE.

        At some point: if, "cryo'd" is an important decision maker/breaker; prior to purchase, one must decide: will they TRUST the purveyor's claims, or- purchase an Electron Microscope and compare some surfaces.

         I seldom buy things, that haven't been recommended/tested*, if not: lauded by others.

        *ie:  Not a cryo'd issue (never had anything thus treated), but; NASA compared Big Silver Oval speaker cables, against a number of others, with which to power their LASERS and found their performance superior.

                   Gave me confidence/trust and I wasn't disappointed.

@moonwalker    

       "All we know for sure is that our current understanding of the universe is very incomplete, but hey, we've only been seriously at this "science game" for a little over 400 years. In that context, it is amazing what we do know, or think we know."

                                                Exactly my point!

         And it often seems: the more we learn, the less we find out we knew.

         Since Einstein was proven correct by The Hubble, Physicists have realized; our knowledge only encompasses, somewhere around 4 to 5% of the universe.

          And some want to make categorical proclamations/pontifications, as to whether it's possible for cables, constructed with knowledge gleaned since 1927, about QM, QED and electromagnetism, MIGHT make a difference in one's system.

                                                Again:

                     Let The Cargo Cult go build another runway!

          We've only recently begun to understand how our own senses, as well as those of many of the creatures around us, actually function.

                                                   ie:

                             Do we hear smells, with our nose?

    https://www.science.org/content/article/do-vibrating-molecules-give-us-our-sense-smell

                                                  and:

     https://maxiamoperfumes.com/2018/05/09/quantum-biology-explains-why-we-hear-with-our-noses/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWhat's%20remarkable%20about%20this%20theory,vibrate%20at%20a%20particular%20frequency.

                                          Enjoy Science?

           https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21150046

                                      Quantum Bird GPS?

     https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-migrating-birds-use-quantum-effects-to-navigate/

                                       Who am I to argue?

                                          Happy listening!

Not only there is more about cable measures than 1890 textbook about electricity, but what a sound is is not even well known nor well understood phenomenologically and in hearing theory , if you dig the concept in acoustic and psycho-acoustic...

People learning formula by heart at school called that "science"... My discussion with an objectivist lately was very informative for me..😊 I learned from him , he learn nothing from me so powerful our biases are ...

i dig up about sounds now not only about small room acoustics...I had no more room to tune anyway... And i want to understand why i can sense not only direction but location as the recording microphone set in his trade-off from my headphone...Dr. Gorike was a genius in acoustic the designer of my AKG K340...

What is a located sound as a qualitative  sound source  event in time and a soundfield, how informative it is about the surroundings and the sound source  ?

It is a deep matter with philosophical deep questions... I am amazed...I thought i was knowing what a sound is... I was sleepwalking with common place definition...

@rodman99999 "BUT: there was still a contingent (like here, on AudiogoN), that wanted the universe (and electricity) to always make sense.    Of course, it's been widely/scientifically proven: it seldom does."

Yeah, there's "science", there's "math", and there's engineering, which is applied science.  Ever since Maxwell came up with his equations, Newton's laws, and Einstein's relativity, we struggle to make sense of it all, especially quantum mechanics.  But we engineers simply can use the equations to design things that work. We don't have to know "why" they work. LOL.  That gets into metaphysics and even religion, which is above my pay grade. 

All we know for sure is that our current understanding of the universe is very incomplete, but hey, we've only been seriously at this "science game" for a little over 400 years. In that context, it is amazing what we do know, or think we know. 

@moonwatcher -

        I’m rewinding these, because you seem interested in understanding other perspectives.

@moonwatcher -

                                            REWINDS:

      Some excerpts, from my post to a recent thread (>1000 posts), that became so contentious, it was deleted.

                                           DISCLAIMER:

    I left that thread, a couple pages prior to deletion, so: not my (direct) fault.

        At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.

        But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.

         They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.

          Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).

                                         Solid State amps?

                                     OOPS (back to tubes)!

                                        Your Smart Phone?

                                        FA'GET ABOUT IT!

                                         Your car's GPS?

                                                NOPE!

      Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor, always from source to load and you're a KOOK?

         Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their beliefs, education, experience and biases

                Oh well- let 'em go build another runway!

                                                    references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_quantum_mechanics#:~:text=Examples%20include%20lasers%2C%20electron%20microscopes,systems%2C%20computer%20and%20telecommunication%20devices.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/08/13/what-has-quantum-mechanics-ever-done-for-us/?sh=37c459944046

https://uwaterloo.ca/institute-for-quantum-computing/quantum-101/quantum-applications-today

          But: I'm a kook, because I believe in the SCIENCE, from which all that sprang?

     https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-practical-uses-spooky-quantum-mechanics-180953494/

           Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda).

  https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm#:~:text=Einstein's%20original%20equations%20had%20been,how%20the%20universe%20will%20end.                                            How about that?

Another example of a hypothesis/theory, with no way to EXPERIMENT/MEASURE, what you're sure must be there, in some detectable way, or another.

                                               Just for fun:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-times-quantum-physics-blew-our-minds-in-2022/

                                            Happy listening!

@moonwatcher -

"My undergraduate degree in the dark ages of the early 1980s was in aerospace engineering... '

                My class pictures were carved on a cave wall, in France.

          Even so, the Physics Labs and QED lectures (back in the 60's) and watching the developments in both those fields, in the decades since, more than convinced me: there's WAY too much going on, with regards to electromagnetism, musical signals and our sound systems, than we now know how to measure.

"But the question remains to ask an electrical engineer, or a physicist would be why changing the lattice structure of steel or copper to be different or more organized does anything beneficial for electricity flowing through it containing information that is modulated..."

"Yet, I’d like to understand what is it that you could measure objectively between two similar cables..."

     Unless they've majorly updated the EE textbooks, since my days of higher learning: those taking such courses are still being instructed on how folks thought electricity worked in the 1800s.

     Of course: when you're only interested in (basically) making things work, those old theories, laws and measurement practices are fine.

     It was interesting, comparing what was taught and lectured upon, between the Physics and EE Depts, regarding electricity, at Case.

     Made for quite a few interesting discussions between course participants.

     Our discussions weren't quite as animated as those at the 1927 Solvay Conference, I suppose, BUT: there was still a contingent (like here, on AudiogoN), that wanted the universe (and electricity) to always make sense.    Of course, it's been widely/scientifically proven: it seldom does.

@rodman99999 thank you for those links. My undergraduate degree in the dark ages of the early 1980s was in aerospace engineering but my first job was in designing tooling for turbine blades. I believe G.E. at the time did use cryogenically cooled tooling in some cases for the benefits it provided in longevity and dimensional stability.

But the question remains to ask an electrical engineer, or a physicist would be why changing the lattice structure of steel or copper to be different or more organized does anything beneficial for electricity flowing through it containing information that is modulated (for analog) or "offs and ons" (for PCM digital)?

I’ve seen the marketing claims, and I don’t deny that better constructed cables can sound better than poor ones and of course they can last much longer.

Yet, I’d like to understand what is it that you could measure objectively between two similar cables, one that is cryo treated and one that is not, and point to it saying, "there, that one will sound better"?

The other paper focuses on GaN based electric devices and lowering the resistance of their interfaces. They noted the cryo treatment helped if those connections were Nickel/Gold but that cryo treatment actually negatively impacted the resistance if those connections were Palladium/Gold.

Now, lowering resistance is generally always a good thing, and for the relatively new GaN devices very important for their operation. But once again, at the end of the day, is it audible in an average audiophile’s system and room?

I’d love to see some practical measurements and double-blind listening tests.

I’m not saying there aren’t differences, just that at some point, are we discussing how many angels can sit on the head of a pin relative to what we humans can hear?

@invalid look at the video I posted above. That is how you test it. 

...think I'll stick with Al & Ti.....nice, MOR stuff...

@mahgister , it's easy to bomb; G.Marx likely had a lot more practice at the art...

@erik_squires , I esp. enjoyed Bogusium and Deceptium.....goog the latter refers one to plant phylum latin or a type of beetle....adding 'alloy' behind the latter yields this, top of list:

...and mahgister thinks he's boring? *L*

Gotta love rabbit holes that lead to an event horizon.... ;)

Don't worry, manufacturers of cables are literally banking on the fact that there's little to no possibility any customer will test their claims.  So my recommendation would be to purchase things that are not marketed with high worded claims and possibly fake properties.  

How would you ever verify if your speaker cables are 99.99% OFC copper?

Buying cryogenic cable before studying acoustic is like someone buying a condom who did not learn really what is making love...😁

«  Mahgister , your cryogenized jokes are boring »--Groucho Marx🤓

Funny thing about Cyro (and other tweaks and mod's) is while the molecular structure may have changed, with audio stuff what are the odds that it will make and audible difference. But, interesting enuf, it seems from user comments it always does, causing me to wonder why I often see stuff for sale which has just went thru mods 'updates'. 

BTW, I read some where that cyro'd stuff was used in our space program. Go figure. :-)

@erik_squires here is the video I referenced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVLR9EuCkgo

@carlsbad2 -

I've never been a fan of cryo.  If you want nothing to change, cool it to cryo temps.  Physics has never provided a basis for it working on anything.  I've also been in several other hobbies where it is touted as a cure all.  Never seen a difference.

                              Perhaps: you've not been paying attention?

             https://thermalprocessing.com/freezing-out-the-competition/#

https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/shopmanagement/myths-in-the-cryogenic-treatment-and-processing-of-metal

           iow: YES, cryo treatment DOES fundamentally change the molecular/crystalline structure of metals (as well as a plethora of other materials).

          More to the point of the potential affect of cryo treatments on our cables/components/systems:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/materials-research-society-internet-journal-of-nitride-semiconductor-research/article/improved-low-resistance-contacts-of-niau-and-pdau-to-ptype-gan-using-a-cryogenic-treatment/F9F3004B4AB0272292BB7D0122B63429

                                           YEAH, I know:

               It must be true.  It was on the internet.

                              Never mind: the sources, right?

@mapman Good points, all of them.  I remember not too long ago there was a huge scandal about some Be tweeters not even being Be at all. 

https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=40060

@erik_squires I’m pretty certain you know the answer is that nobody knows anything claimed about any product unless they can verify it themselves somehow. You are operating on pure trust otherwise. So be sure as always to do your homework and know who you are dealing with.

Personally, if I am paying a premium for something advertised I expect at least evidence and preferably proof. Esoteric and often expensive hifi tweaks are merely one very good example. High quality cosmetics is another that is very common. Always check the ingredients at minimum else all bets are off. Verification if tested somewhere is even better.

Companies marketing products often bank on the fact that consumers will take any claims made at face value and expect no proof or evidence. This is the norm. One can choose to be a smart consumer and maybe trust but verify but frankly most are not able to and don’t.

”A fool and his (or her) money……” always holds true.

@erik_squires very few people say that measurements are end all be all. I certainly do not. But it helps with a lot of things.

you need a serious microscope to see the crystals of copper, or silver, to see how it was cast and treated and the grade of metal. 

@carlsbad2 oh so now suddenly you are a physicist believing in facts? Yeah, like I said, I am not interested in your imaginary world. 

@fredrik222 As a physicist I may have some experience with Data.  one of the first things a scientist has to figure out is the difference between good data and bad data.  you would benefit from improvement of this skill but is is generally difficult for laypeople.

but most people on this forum don’t believe in measurements, so there is that.

I believe in measurements, I don’t believe in people taking non-scientific approaches to measurements such as:

• Making claims that the current measurements are the end of all measurements
• Making claims about measurements and perception or desirability that are not actually proven or may be an individual preference.

Still, with as many tools as I have around this house to measure distance, temperature, humidity, speakers and electronics what I don’t have is anything that can prove to me if a cable is OCC or not or if it has been cryogenically treated or not.

@carlsbad2 you for one do not believe in measurements, that has been established many times over. But not interested in getting into another pointless back and forth about facts vs imagined things. 

A few years ago I had a pair of cary audio cad 1610se amps, the main tubes being KR 1610’s. I had a problem that the main tubes were dying after a couple of hundred hours. I got in contact with KR and they suggested proving a paid that had been cryp treated. I had no further issues. (Sold the amps a few years later so can’t comment on if they’re still going but they had maybe 500 hrs at sale. 

@fredrik222   It must be true.  It was on the internet.

@erik_squires labs can test what material, how it was cast, and then treated and provide a report. Can’t remember who, but someone did this with the SKW cables on Amazon, supposedly OCC, turns out that they were not.

but most people on this forum don’t believe in measurements, so there is that. 

Lots of things break while cryo treating.

I've never been a fan of cryo.  If you want nothing to change, cool it to cryo temps.  Physics has never provided a basis for it working on anything.  I've also been in several other hobbies where it is touted as a cure all.  Never seen a difference.

that said, I occasionally buy cryo treated stuff if there is no upcharge and it is otherwise a good product, such as ice age cables, a good quality low cost cable.

Jerry

I've been cryogenically treating pretty much all my cables, receptacles, etc. for about 20 years at Bayson Heat Treating in London, Canada. Take Five Audio used to have all their stuff done there (they acquired their own unit a number of years ago and, yes, I do believe they did that and cryo treat the stuff they sell as cryo treated) and Audio Sensibility has continued to have all their materials done there, at least until very recently when Bayson has experienced troubles with their unit. I'm hoping they can fix it and get it back up and running. 

Over the years I've had lots of stuff come out of the unit with Steve's (Audio Sensibility) and Gene's (Take Five Audio) stuff. 

@newbee Now that reminds me of the Agnostic, Dyslexic Insomniac,  who stayed awake all night wondering if there really was a Dog.   

Dammed if I know. Probably the same way we verify that fuses make a difference and that they are correctly oriented. We listen and hear, or think we hear, the difference. Is there a god? OK, prove that!

Do you mean the honor system doesn't exist?

I store  all my 1957 vintage tubes, cables and fuses in the garage freezer until needed. 

If it’s treated it’ll sound cool. 

That's easy.  You will hear a wider sound stage, 3 dimensional presentation and much tighter Bass.  🤣