+1 @nonoise ,
There is but a single, precise definition for litigation. There is no interpretation.
This Tekton video is nothing more than after the fact attempted damage control.
A lame attempt at that.
Thin Line Between Critique and Courtrooms: A Dialogue on the Recent Audiophile Drama
Hey Audiogonians,
In the vast, vibrant universe of audio reviews, where the line between subjective opinion and objective analysis often blurs, a new saga unfolds. It involves a Youtuber, well-known within our community for their take on speaker designs – designs that, while innovative, haven't shied away from criticism. The plot thickens with another Youtuber's revelation: the speaker's designer and manufacturer has filed a lawsuit against a reviewer over their less-than-glowing feedback.
The core of the debate? Whether it's acceptable to push back against reviewers when their findings diverge from what manufacturers desire. It's not a new drama; history is littered with tales of reviewers facing legal threats for daring to express their truth. Yet, each story brings a fresh perspective on the delicate dance between free speech and brand reputation.
This particular episode raises several intriguing questions:
- Where do we draw the line between constructive criticism and damaging feedback?
- Is the courtroom really the arena for settling disputes over reviews, or should dialogue prevail?
- And crucially, what does this mean for the future of honest, independent audio reviews?
This isn't just about the nitty-gritty of legal battles, many of which remain cloaked in confidentiality and technical jargon. It's about the principle: the right to voice one's opinion in a space that thrives on diversity of thought.
So, fellow audiophiles, what's your take? Have you ever felt swayed by a review, only to discover a different truth upon listening? Have you faced the ire of those who didn't appreciate your candid feedback?
📢Let's make this a discussion to remember – not just for the controversy, but for the unity and respect we can foster, even in disagreement.
266 responses Add your response
artemus_5+10 😊 |
As usual, @atmasphere has some very viable points. Also consider lively debates between those who believe their ears and those who believe the measurements and how it aligns with the fact that Tekton questioned their measurements. That's just not allowed in modern audiophilia. I have no wager on either horse in this race but I do understand the need for clicks for online reviewers. Since its a he said, she said, there are a bunch here who are working off very little real info except hearsay and are ready to throw Tekton under the bus as the bad guy. maybe he is. But maybe he isn't. We don't really know. But it doesn't stop the character assassination. Who will be next? |
litigation: the process of taking legal action. One doesn't get to redefine accepted definitions to suit one's needs. Doing that in the real world does lead to naturally understandable misunderstandings as people tend to take one at one's word. Citing lots of positive press doesn't negate the occasional negative ones. In the end Eric's still out over his skis. All the best, |
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@johnk , You've missed the point completely, I'm afraid. |
The point is, I haven’t seen a negative review of ANY audio product in the press in a long time. It is usually glowing words. Going to ask an honest question, with a experience of mine from another consumer product. I worked for a whiskey producer, who I won’t name, and before I was working there, they would buy bulk whiskey from a bulk manufacturer. They would bottle it and it said on the bottle, it was not made there, but said the recipe was a family recipe. A reviewer found out and pointed out it was no different than others from the large manufacturer. The company and founder sued to get the reviewer to remove the negative review. So, you are saying that the reviewer was not honest? I understand protecting a company but it is so over the top now. Understand, I think it is this attitude of the audio companies that are turning people off. Put shoes on of a consumer, first and look at it this from the outside. I think you are disingenuous at best. Would you want Boeing/Airbus to do what your saying? I could go on. Look at the pickle Boeing is in now... |
@botrytis My reply is simply borne out of experience. I agree with the sentence after that comment; its exactly what I said in my post prior. Reviewers can get away with things like that in the car industry. Its not likely to bring down the company. A sour review in high end audio can and has. Now the issue isn't whether products will improve or not, its whether the negative review is honest. I listed a number of reasons that I've seen and/or experienced why they may not be. So if a negative review that is not honest takes out a company that didn't deserve it, is that fair? Its an easy thing for a reviewer to avoid by simply never talking about that product. That way the public doesn't find out about it; problem solved. |
@rooze Exactly. It seems some want it only their way. This especially true since prices in the audio world are going up faster than Elon Musk's rockets. |
The idea that a product, if it receives a poor review, should be sent back to the manufacturer and the negative review erased, is profoundly troubling. It raises the question: what kind of environment are we creating when we’re only exposed to endorsements that persuade us to make a purchase, while critiques that could save us from an expensive mistake are concealed? All this, seemingly to protect (whitewash?) a company’s image? What about the public, the customers? Don’t we matter? And what about the reputation of the rag publishing the reviews? It’s baffling and strikes me as eerily Orwellian. |
Interesting how the majority of folks have focused upon the lawsuit and the review details. What stands out to me is Tekton Man’s improper responses to handling the review and any criticism. We’ve seen on forums as well. If you can’t put your big boy pants on and accept criticism professionally don’t engage or be in this profession. Audiophiles are harsh critics. |
Unfortunately I didn’t get to read the review in question before it went down, but from what I gather the review itself wasn’t all that negative and the measurements were the main source of the problem. Is that about right? I only received two products for review over 17 years that didn’t sound at least mostly good, and as I’ve mentioned before if a product has risen to the level of getting a review it’s pretty much already been vetted as being a very promising performer, which is mostly why you don’t read many outright negative reviews. One of the subpar products did some good things but were over overshadowed by a significant limitation elsewhere, so I simply pointed out the good and less good without outright trashing the product, but the point was made (and thankfully I wasn’t sued). In the other case it was an otherwise well-reviewed speaker from a well-known manufacturer that was likewise significantly flawed IMO, and I even had an audiophile buddy come over and he felt the exact same way. I contacted the company thinking maybe they were out of spec or damaged, and the company responded that they’d redesigned the driver and had me send the review pair back. I never received the redesigned speaker back for review and still don’t know if the review pair was defective or what, but I’m glad I never had to write that review. Point is, there are ways to handle these things with some simple and respectful communication both ways without either possibly wrongly trashing a product or threatening a reviewer with legal action. This situation with Tekton seems to have been mishandled on multiple levels, and as someone mentioned earlier this kind of thing is rare I think because most people in the industry are thankfully respectful and reasonable despite perhaps a few bad apples. That’s been my experience anyway and FWIW. |
I will return back your question to yourself ? why do you need sarcasm instead of argument in an audio platform especially against someone as rational as atmasphere ? For my mental health personal report , it is not for you here to have an answer... This thread is about a precise matter which you can adress as i did myself and atmasphere with "arguments" and reason ...Not with insult, innuendos, sarcasms only and mainly ... Anybody using arguments and reason here is welcome... Even me... 😁 By the way i never "impose" my opinion as you just did with your personal adress to atmasphere, me i always gave plenty of arguments and anybody can reply with arguments ... Nobody can give an argument as answer to sarcasm, as your useless pointing to atmasphere "ego" was... is it clearer ? I am not a perfect human being too because i answered you ... 😊
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A review of a product, for example speakers, based on specs measures or in subjective impressions in a room , or the two together is always a debatable matter, because there is always many parameters, many different needs at play, the only exception is if the speakers are very bad design to begin with ...( but very bad speakers design do not go very far in sales) then for me any reviews result as any design from a set of trade -off choices, in the designer intention as well as in the reviewers needs and wishes... Where are the dots ? If you look at one side they are there, if you look at the other side they are there... there is no absolute truth in design no more than in reviewing... Designer must not use threat of legal pursuit and reviewers must be cautious in their choice of words for sure ...
The extinction illusion: the left side and the right side have the same number of black dots... In reality, both sides of the image contain the same number of black dots, but our brains' selective attention and processing mechanisms cause us to perceive them differently. This illusion highlights the complex interplay between perception, attention, and cognition in shaping our visual experiences. |
My sincere apologies to you. I forgot that you know everything about audio (and almost everything about every other thing). Why do you waste your supremacy on such a trivial platform as this? As others have asked, what is your point? Oh never mind, I forgot, it's all about your ability to understand acoustics and the real meaning of life. |
@atmasphere Your reply is part of the issue. A good reviewer is there to give information to their audience, not stroke the egos of the manufacturers. That was the way IT USED to be. I will use a car review as an example. How would you deal with a review like this? Her Name Is Rio… And She’s Crap | The Truth About Cars I remember reading this after I had a Rio as a rental - I totally agreed with it. How can products improve if no one is there to give honest opinions about them? |
@abnerjack You're forgiven as if I have anything to say about it and its all good. I agree, I am not nor are my products beyond reproach. A lot of manufacturers I know simply try to do the best they can, but none of us are perfect and there's always something new to learn about how we can do better. I've been wrong plenty of times! Sometimes I feel like I spend most of my life being wrong... When I have doubts about a topic I usually keep my mouth shut. This isn't one of those topics- I've seen others experience unethical reviews and I've experienced them myself (in my case, it was because I couldn't afford a 6-month advertising contract with the magazine). I have raised this issue of negative reviews being unethical in the past, and I always get some pushback. I think we all would like to think that a negative review is always honest and hard-hitting journalism at its best; that story died an ugly death for me. We are all human and prone to human imperfection; the best reviewers I know all just don't say anything when they encounter what they think is a bad product. Fortunately they are the majority out there IME.
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There are a core set of measurements - FR, Soundpower, directivity, dispersion, waterfall, etc that a) in combination b) if one knows how to interpret them and c) has enough points of reference, could get one into a fairly good ballpark of whether it it matches his tastes (or not) and how it could work out in his room (or not). It would be more reliable to proceed with the decision for trying it out (or not). The subjective poetry spewers are a bit harder to decipher.... You may have to buy the crud he recommended at times and return it to figure out that your tastes don’t match. For example, there are a couple of reviewers out there, i know i most probably will like the opposite of what he liked. And, of course, there are those who’re paid to sing poetry on anything and everything...There ain’t anything that didn’t make his jaw drop ever. I did see Erin’s review before he took it down. Subjectively, his tastes and mine don’t match..I would not buy any speaker he strongly recommends subjectively. But, he throws the measurements out there and makes it a bit easier for folks with differing tastes. The zero fidelity YTer was a guy who would actually get close to the sound signature of things. He’d make an effort to subjectively describe its sound signature as accurately as possible (in case it suited a different guy’s tastes). There are other clueless "reviewers" who are unable to do such a thing. The latter is the type of guy, who will start describing an upstream component, when in reality he’s describing the speaker and so on....It’s mostly a goofy path, trying to navigate around the subjective poetry spewers.
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I dont remember atmasphere "ego" very much all around the place since the 8 years i came here..😊 He always spoke the best he can to help everyone here with acoustics and engineering information ... Smartest-guy-in-the-room is it not me ? 😁 If it is not me, it is certainly not you either, you (we) have too much "ego" anyway, then stay calm instead of attacking someone who just gave in a rational way his own well motivated , if debatable, opinion among a raging crowd...... ( i was raging myself against threat to a reviewer for sure).. 😊 |
@botrytis 'Bone to pick' can cover a wide range of issues. For example, the manufacturer could have said something online with which the reviewer disagrees. I agree this might look like condescension but I have seen this happen more than once. It might simply be the reviewer got in a bad mood having nothing to do with the equipment at all, maybe his car got towed. There's no way to know. A good reviewer isn't there to stroke eqos. His/her job is to inform the public of something in which the public for whom he/she writes might be interested, like high end audio or fine watches. There's plenty of good stuff out there, no need to waste everyone's time with that which doesn't cut the mustard. |
I agree completely with this attitude in life for sure... Truth is over anything else... 😊 But once this is said an audio product review imply as a medical reporting truth a fine line about what must be said with the right choice of word... We can say our truth without making it a negative destruction of the product...
«He said with good reason for sure :" your body is wrong beyond repair 35 years ago"»-- Groucho Marx surviving cancer 🤓
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There are way too many fine lines everywhere and anywhere you go -- a mesh or a web of fine lines and those very often disguise truth. There's a fine line on ethical definition(s) as well. Way too many, but the best remedy -- the very best remedy is being truthful whether there is or there isn't fine line or multiples of fine lines simply because there's only one singular truth and one singular definition that can break any web or mesh of fine lines.
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I myself most of the times lend way much more credibility reading a reviewer about his "reserves" and "between the line implication" than about a flat negative remarks... And we have users reviews which are not constrainted by any ethical professional guideline anyway ... I used statistical users analysis myself ... There is difference between flat negative observation and cautious choice of words... There is a reviewer ethical line, implicit or explicit ... Then atmasphere post make sense to me ... We have way more users opinions than reviewers opinion to compare to anyway...
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I concur with atmasphere here ... This does not means that negative impressions must not be written in the diplomatic form of reservation or very cautious wordings .. Being ethical is a fine line ... Staying objective too ...
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@rowlocktrysail Generally speaking, a negative review (not one that is positive with a few minor beefs) should be looked upon as unethical. Here’s a list of why: 1) the reviewer might have a bone to pick that has nothing to do with the equipment; IOW its political. 2) the reviewer may not know what he’s doing. 3) the equipment under review might have a malfunction which might be caused by shipping, abuse, inability to follow instructions (see 2 above) etc. 4) there may be a conflict of interest between the advertising vs editorial staff. I’ve seen this one first hand; no advertising=bad review. 5) the reviewer feels a need to prove something (usually that they are some kind of ’expert’; if they really are they don’t need to prove this); whereas if they have any moxy at all this simply isn’t necessary. This is a very powerful motivator! 6) When a reviewer or magazine purports to have ’hard hitting’ journalism, at least in the case of high end audio its usually not the case- more likely, its to cover up problems like 4 above. If a magazine or reviewer is on the up and up, if a product falls well short of a good review, the ethical thing to do is to send it back to the manufacturer without any mention in print (or in this case, online). Out of sight out of mind, quite simply. Put another way, a rising tide raises all boats. When you see a bad review, keep these things in mind. I’ve seen them all play out many times in the past, often hurting legitimately good companies, sometimes even putting them out of business. For example Quicksilver got a bad review (undeserved, as most people here already know) simply because they had a policy of not advertising at the time. This happened with a fairly well-known magazine. Gryphon got trashed about 30 years ago, which ended their US distribution for years afterward, because they refused to simply give the review sample to the reviewer (see 1 above). I happened to be in the Gryphon room at CES when the reviewer made this threat- and a few months later, saw his comments in print. I know many of you out there will not understand this right away, because you might think the reviewer is helping by steering you away from a "bad" product. That idea is false- the ethical way to handle it is the reviewer doesn’t mention a product that falls short- its shunned.
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Sad thing to me is Tekton offers unique products that have garnered pretty decent reviews. Not everyone’s cup of tea but what is? I get it that the owner is passionate about his products, but everyone can benefit from a little more self awareness and respect for others.
For me, a useful response for a vendor who has objections to a review is to cite the objection politely and then give the other person a chance to respond and see where it goes from there. |
Having reviewed this case, my verdict is the reviewer is in general very thorough based on other reviews of his I have read and did nothing wrong that I can discern in the TEkton case of concern. There were suggestions made regarding improvements and reviewer agreed to a second review with that in mind (holes in the cabinet for footers by design that ideally should be plugged...strange but apparently true). Tekton guy was combative and way out of line threatening legal action up front as opposed to engaging in constructive discourse and looks bad accordingly which is bad PR period. Case closed. Note: I have observed in general that it is a common thing on ASR site for reviewer to do a follow-up or revised review in cases where vendor or others point out a valid defect in the process, and admit mistakes or oversights prior, which is admirable and how it should be. |
Yet another display of low class bullying tactics by the Tekton Man. This behavior will continue until he drives his business to closure. We have seen his true colors on this forum as he does a World Class job of building haters. It’s time for a pilgrimage to bring Tekton speakers for a bonfire display at “Burning Man” |
