Thiel Owners
Hey Thiel Gonners! Just finished my last round of updates for my 3.6 XOs. My midranges came back from Rob a week ago: he replaced the voice coils and surrounds. He was even so thoughtful to included solder samples for me to ensure the proper termination. They sound fantastic by the way with more transparency and balance; just a slight forwardness to the upper midband which I feel is more settled now with this present round of XO updates. For this round I changed out the remaining Solens Caps and started replacing the ERSE 1uf bypass caps with ClarityCap CSAs: the quadruple treble bypass feed stage. Rob also send along some original 18 AWG twisted pair harness wire to extend my leads to the drivers which I was thankful to have. Before, I had to splice my runs (cringe). As an aside: what intersting discussions we're having about different wire runs Rob and Tom. Star quad runs sound like fun some day and always glad to have further insights and history. Anyway, I ran my summed mono A/B comparison tests yesterday and confirmed the results this afternoon In stereo. Over all the sound now has less forward upper midband and more controlled lower/mid bass than before. Threre is also more treble extention and presence. Vocals and solo instrument are more pronounced with greater clarity without being forward or unbalanced in the presentation. Kind of reminds me of a well implimented horn setup rig. Klipsch la Scalas come to mind but with all the attributes of well executed bass authority as well! It's also fun to hear new details, 3d imaging, and air now present. On the down side: the lack of lower and center midband is creating a just the slightest sense of sterility without as much warmth as before. Perhaps further break-in time will reveal more in time. I am to understand that more mid bass will show itself in a day or so hopefully warming things up a bit. I do feel that sound is more balanced and refined than with the original Solens/ERSE caps as I'm sure they must be showing there age with technology advances and such. It's well worth the effort and I'm learning so much along the journey! Many thanks again to all who have supported me thus far! Next up will be to replace the remaining "Thiel" resistors with more Mills MRA-12s and the final round will be replacing the remaining ERSE 1uf caps with CSAs as well. Afterward, I look forward to further tweeking as there'll certainly be voiceing down the line as well. What fun!! |
Masi - my suggestion is that you are doing well with sspur. Also, this forum has lots of information going back a few years with answers to lots of your questions - and there are people here with first-hand experience to guide you. I have not formally addressed the 3.6 and would be speculating with anything I would say. SSpur, Beetlemania and others here have solid experience regarding brands and outcomes. I will chip in as I can find time. |
@tomthiel. I have been messaging @stspur about some changes he is making with his CS3.6's. He soldered in some different components into his crossovers which he says have made a big impact on sound quality. Is there any way to get a list of the specs/part numbers/brands of components that would help to freshen the crossovers on my CS3.6's. I am already planning on taking my CS3.6's to Rob at Coherent Audio to have the ferrofluid checks and get the later style speaker binding posts. I have Analysis Plus speaker wires that were quite expensive that are terminated with spade connections. These spades can't be tightened down quite enough, there is some rounding off evident on the plastic nuts. I told Rob that I would like him to do the later style which he said have slightly more durable metal speaker terminals and said he could do this. The cost did not seem that excessive to me compared with the turntable updates I am doing with my LInn LP12 turntable right now. One more question: I am using Sound Anchors stands under my CS3.6s but nothing right now between the bottoms of the CS3.6's and the tops of the Sound Anchors. I could use the factory spikes and just get some cups to put on top of the Sound Anchors or maybe some of those cork/sorbothane squares I have seen would work. What suggestions would you have here. I get a lot of bass from my Bryston 4B2 amp but I get the feeling that I could tighten it up a bit in my second story carpeted listening room with some tweaks. |
Tom I installed the 17.5 guage chassis wire to the tweeters Sunday and my conclusion is this is the correct size to use . While the 15.5 guage sounded very good there was a glaring issue , on loud higher frequency notes distortion appeared . This was first noticed when listning to the War album Deliver The Word when an alto sax hit the high notes , I then checked with the album that I use for testing when changes are made Norah Jones Come Away With Me , some of her piano notes caused the same ear bending distortion as heard on the War album and finally the worst offender of all listening to Freewheelin Bob Dylan album , his harmonica playing convinced me to try changing in wire gauge . The 17.5 sound smooth and sweet , all the notes that were distorted before now sound detailed and clear , even Bob Dylans harmonica playing or to say at least as good as his playing gets . If I do any other wire changes it will be to increase the gauge to the bass crossover board but for now it's time to listen to the music for a while before I start installing the Mills the resistors . Rob |
TMR has also listed a few other Thiel speakers in cherry. Looks to all be pieces of a Thiel home theater system. https://tmraudio.com/speakers/center-speakers/thiel-scs3-center-channel-speaker-cherry-scs-3/ https://tmraudio.com/speakers/center-speakers/thiel-mcs1-center-channel-speaker-mcs-1-w-sound-anchor-stand-cherry/ https://tmraudio.com/speakers/subwoofers/thiel-sw1-ss2-smartsub-dual-9-powered-subwoofer-sw-1-as-is-no-power/ |
In case anyone is interested, The Music Room just listed a pair of CS 2.4 in cherry finish for $1849 + $249 for shipping anywhere in the US. Listed condition as 8 out of 10. https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/thiel-cs2-4-floorstanding-speakers-cherry-pair-cs-2-4/ |
@Rob, I definitely think it would be good to document problems and their solutions that we've had with our Thiels. That'd be a good addition to the Thiel models blog actually. I found out about the air chamber when I took my blown midrange into Audio Consultants and they told me that was a potential problem. |
It's probably caulk - I don't know what kind. In my time we used acrylic latex painter's caulk with good results, and sometimes hotmelt adhesive to build a mound. But, sealing was always be a big hassle; hotmelt and caulk are both permanent, which leaves few options when a leak develops. so I am experimenting with something else. Permatex type II non-hardening sealant from the automotive store. It softens with heat for removal and resealing. I'm working the Ptex between the wires, putting a Mortite dam on the bottom / outside, and adding a Ptex mound inboard, then hitting it with hot air to settle it. So far, so good. |
Tom Will do , delivery is expected Monday , I hope to know something by Tuesday or Wednesday . Can you tell me what the black rubberized coating is , it looks like it was painted on and is around the edges where the bracing attaches to the walls and was used to seal up the openings where the speaker wires came thru . Rob |
jon_5912 When I read your post from 2018 you had 3.7s that blew a coaxial speaker , supposedly because of the cable pass thru not being sealed . Thanks to your post it would have been awhile before I sealed the speaker cable pass thru solving the problem . Lazyness caused my problem . Distortion was not heard at lower levels until reaching my normal listening levels and really was bad if I tried to go higher . Luckily I almost never turn up the volume more than 2 notches beyond my normal so no damage was done . I would encourage any Thiel owner to post any problems so we can all be aware and listen for possible issues before a speaker is damaged. As jafant would say Happy Friday Rob |
I'd guess the overpowering sound was due to distortion when the drivers were pushed outside their normal range. It's an interesting problem to have. I've found it's distortion that hurts the ears. I can crank my ATCs up really high but because they're made to play very loudly without distortion it doesn't create the discomfort just about any other speaker would. 115db continuous is loud! http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/scm110asl-pro/ |
Tom Plugging the pass thru holes for the speaker wires solved the mystery of why when I turned up the volume the mid and upper range frequencies became overpowering . The magic has returned . I was focusing and blaiming the sound unbalance on the increase in wire gauge , my electronics backround blinded me I guess . Using your recommendation I'm still going to reduce the tweeter wire gauge to 17.5 for a listen , I can always go back to 15.5 . While it can be frustrating and not always fun , the end results have been worth it . I can honestly say that working on an amp in much more straight forward than on a speaker . Rob |
Rob,, Sealing between the chambers is important for impulse integrity. If open, the woofer air pressure yanks the midrange around - not good. You can temporarily seal well enough with Mortite or bowl putty. When I came to New Hampshire in 1996, we had local long-hair wool production in the village. I looked into it for speakers as a venture prospect. I also read the British, etc. opinions which are widespread and respected. But I was never convinced given my own experience. I anecdotally attribute the "British Bloat" partially to the tendency of wool to decouple below about 100 Hz. Changing batting isn't on my radar, but who knows? We never know. Wire gauge is part of the resistance equation. All design measurements and listening is done with the selected gauge. But there is another element in play. Skin effect / signal penetration depth is frequency dependent. 18 gauge is optimum for tweeter frequencies. Larger gauges are suitable for lower frequencies. Your change from 18 to 15.5 will add a harsh coarseness caused by propagation eddy currents. What I am doing with Straightwire is replacing the 18/2 with 18/4 in a star quad twist. We keep the optimum skin depth while halving the resistance and multiplying common mode noise rejection - these cables are in an electromagnetic soup from the drivers and crossovers. I am assuming that final level tweaking will be required due to resistance changes. I am applying the same star quad regime along with progressively larger gauges to the other drivers, all with promising results. Carry on and keep us posted. |
Tom Again I have to say thank you , your knowledge , experience and insight is valued and appreciated by all Thiel owners . I remember you telling us that Toyota approached Thiel with the thought of using Thiel speakers in Toyota cars , your stories and life experiences are always interesting . As for batting , I've given up with the idea of changing from fiberglass but still the reading and research was very interesting . I almost bought some " long haired " sheeps wool after reading about it being the best and used by top British speaker makers , but overseas shipping prices prevented me from trying . I'm back to the wiring because I think I made a mistake when I increased the gauge to 15.5 reducing the resistance to much , the mid tweeter sound is to forceful so I've ordered 17.5 to see if resistance is the problem . I believe you warned me about that . I read an old post by @jon_5912 about the holes between the woofer and the coaxial chamber where the wires pass thru and the possible effect of them not being sealed , I've not sealed mine do to continued work but I'm going to do that this morning to see if the sound is affected. Luckily no damage like jon experienced . Try , Listen , Learn or is it Learn , Try , Listen Rob |
tomthiel, 'Just my little peek behind the curtain regarding how everything is hooked to everything, nothing is simple, and no good idea goes unpunished.' It's a real privilege to have your input and insights here. Cabinets are no doubt fiendishly complicated things and your words do help to ground things back into reality somewhat. Thankfully for most of us here, we're only on the listening side of the fence! |
Rob - I saw and heard the first pair of 2.7s at the factory in 2012. I believe there was an angled dividing board between the lower (woofer) and upper (midrange) chambers. I should add a thought to the insulation riddle. Many people assume that wool is best, the other synthetics are next and fiberglas is worst, due mostly to cost, where fiberglas is the least expensive. I've previously mentioned that Thiel's fiberglas is a best of form type. I don't think that I've mentioned my reasons for confidence that it's pretty good, perhaps best for the task. In the late 80s during development of the CS5, I took on the project of comparing, contrasting, testing and choosing an 'optimum' batting / insulation scheme for the CS5. Such research always trickled down to less expensive products where an as cost-effective. I had some pretty luck help. Toyota was coming to town with their Camry plant. Also IBM keyboard products was down the street and the University of Kentucky had developed a School of Advanced Engineering in support of Toyota's success. I've mentioned the happy quirk that Thiel Audio was a 5th member (of 5) of UK's Advanced Manufacturing Roundtable, to which I was Thiel's representative. Lots of stories there, but today's is that Toyota, of course, was bigtime in the sound deadening business as was IBM. In addition to picking their brains, I brought my cousin Teddy (the GE Jet Engine guy) to the party for his knowledge of aircraft noise abatement. Needless to say, there was horsepower in play. Less likely, is that the scheme we had originally developed in the late 70s won the day. Many of the reasons for choosing other materials have to do with odor or fungus or handling or airborne particulates. Those issues were all manageable and wool felt and fiberglas is what we kept. There are many new subsequent products and concepts. Thiel never approached constrained layer damping or suspended case in case construction. But we did explore various surface damping schemes. I found nothing to make any appreciable net improvement over what we had. And it seems that future products kept on keeping on. Although I am investigating air movement and panel resonance, I haven't considered re-addressing the original wood felt / fiberglas batt chamber damping. For now at least. |
For the record, wool acts quite differently than fiberglas, as does polyester fiberfill or spun mineral wool, especially in transition to the deep bass. Final placement and voicing of damping was always made by results. Listen to it, and if you have the means, measure the output smoothness. Insulation schemes will unload at various frequencies due to complex resonant behavior, especially in reflex systems. Fiberglas behaves more simply and predictably than any other scheme we found. In my time, and possibly onward, the first reflection of the midrange driver off its rear enclosure wall was absorbed with dense pure wool felt - it worked the best for that purpose and its considerable expense was worthwhile. Our evaluation of wool batting for absorption was not as good as fiberglas. |
@jafant I made no comparison. Just assumed that the previous volume was “optimized”, a dubious assumption given that the volume can easily be modified by compression, ie, there is no one OEM volume that can be discerned. I merely made it as close as possible to how it was when I first removed the radiator to view to boards. |
I guess this is the time to ask, or confirm, that the incredibly comprehensive hyperlinked database of all speakers that was a part of the 'real' Thiel's website was immediately destroyed by the new owners? As I recall, it had every speaker's production dates, white paper, instruction manual, print marketing material, technical specifications, and all the positive reviews they could find from US and foreign sources. If anyone mirrored or archived it, I have yet to find it... |
This post is addressed to all who participate in this thread, but more than likely mostly to Tom Thiel for assistance. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a timeline of Thiel product development. A list that would provide the years of manufacture for each of the products in the various series. I think that it could help provide context for many of the discussions on this thread. It would also be interesting to have the corresponding price points at the time as well. Thoughts? |
@beetlemania Update on the wool quilting batting , basically a total failure . No matter how much I used and compressed in the mid/tweeter cabinet the very high piercing notes came thru , in the bass it seemed to muddy up the upper bass . While it is great to work with , it just isn't the right batting for sound . Maybe I'll try wool insulation after replacing the resistors and electrolytic capacitors . Solved the brightness after replacing the wiring , changed a tube on the phono preamp . Question , does the 2.4 have fiberglass batting that is cut into squares and rectangles then stuffed in or is it heavy and cut placed aroung the walls ? Rob |
Forgot to mention serial number 259 and dates on backside of tweeter domes 3/06. (both the original tweeter and the one I bought a few months ago, and written by the same person.) back https://imgur.com/a/tt0o7XU front https://imgur.com/IUIyi2A |
Here's a picture of the other side. While it is on a PC board, there isn't really any significant tracing. All of the components are connected via solder except one short spot on the left. That appears to be part of a secondary path to the tweeter that I'm guessing is supposed to carry a very small signal. It appears the importance of the printed part is mainly to help with assembly. Viewpoint back of crossover: https://imgur.com/e3YK20g |
