Tom & Beetle
I am Happy to hear that you hear positive affects from the parallel
configuration , I will try seperating them more than the 2"s I have them now .
Thank you Tom for your advise on placing resistors parallel ,
there will be 18 resistors per speaker !
I'll have to do some similar parallel configurations with the electrolytic
caps .
Ons step at a time , espeacailly with all the glue they used on the componets .
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@tomthiel Thanks for your report. I’m impressed with the variety of configurations tried. I’ll further adjust mine based on your narrative. I wonder why “don’t do it”? |
Rob and Beetle - I have also gone back and forth between wire configurations. My observations are similar to both of yours, the parallel configuration seems to add dimension and space. I hear more lucid harmonic detail such as obviously double strings on the mandolin or transient fingerings within electric guitar chordal work. And more lush and detailed (at the same time!) mid-bass. Such observations hold true blind.
I have also done some measuring. The only obvious difference is the presence of large, broad "bloating" of sub-sonics, perhaps 10+dB at 10 to 20 Hz with frequency sweeps beginning at 0 Hz, with accompanying group delay anomalies.
I am in conversation with Steven Hill of Straightwire as well as a knowledgeable physicist, plus my reading. Those expert opinions concur that whatever pleasant effect we are hearing, the technicals are more problematic. In other words: "don't do it".
One interesting trial was controlling the separation of the ++ and -- cables. Consistent separation is a technical requirement. Separating at 1.5" (my convenient wood blocks), served to lessen the "effect". Also spiraling the two cables lessens the effect. And, conversely, the effect is pronounced with widely separated runs (1' to 3' along the 10' run.)
I am getting some double helix wire from Straightwire where 4 conductors will carry the signal in star quad (opposite corner) configuration. This configuration is standard practice in studio cables, house wiring and industrial practice.
For my own listening I would choose the separated parallel conductors. Thank you Rob. However, my upgrade work requires science based solutions. I'm still working on the problem.
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stspur
My pleasure. Have fun and enjoy the Music.
Happy Listening!
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Many thanks to your kind replies. CSAs sound like the way to go then. Now off to shopping and installing. I'll keep you posted. |
Moniker: dgarretson
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the confirmation regarding Clarity Caps.
Hope that you are well and having fun splitting duties between Hot Rod garage and Studio time.
If you guys require more specific(s) relating to Clarity Caps, reach out and touch Dave Garrettson, whom represents that brand here on the 'Gon.
Happy Listening!
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Insider information: I've been told that Jim and Gary listened to every cap out there, along with measuring to choose the ClarityCaps. At the time the SA was top of the line. I've compared the SA to the CSA. The CSA is next league. Truly remarkable.
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stspur
Good to see you here. I concur w/ beetle, Clarity Cap is a sonic match.
Keep us posted on your project. There are a few DIY experts here that can assist with the re-build.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Nice score! on the 3.5 loudspeaker.
This model may very well be the Panel favorite.
Happy Listening!
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All
I wanted to direct your DIY attention to last week's HiFi Chats via YouTube. The guest was Mr. Richard Vandersteen. The episode (7) was an in-depth discussion on loudspeaker building. Specifically, our beloved 1st Order filter design. The most informative session yet.
Happy Listening!
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@vair68robert
I switched back to the parallel ++/- - configuration a few days ago. I do hear this as more open and dimensional, less bounded. Could I pass a DBT? I dunno and I don’t care. If I were more motivated I would compare in mono. But that requires removing the outriggers and spikes and a couple of hours of swapping speakers back and forth. I’m not saving the world here, just maximizing my enjoyment.
Now, I need to decide whether to resolder the binding posts so that the cables are not off the ground as much. I will not be enjoying anything if a house guest trips over the elevated cables.
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@stspur I built completely new boards for my 2.4s last year, with guidance from Tom Thiel. Excepting for a few bypass caps, everything is Clarity Cap CSA. Higher voltages on the coax feeds. Even the big 100 uF shunt caps are now CSA (low voltage). Jim Thiel and crew picked the Clarity SA for the 2.4 SE out of several compared. The CSA is an upgrade from the SA. Also, the CS2.7 includes some Clarity caps, maybe ESA which is between SA and ESA. |
Hello again fellow Thiel 'Goners! Glad to have your continued advice and experiences with our beloved speakers. Always a joy to catch up on what's being newly discussed. I'm considering updating my original CS3.6 crossovers and was thinking about starting with caps. Would you have some recommendations for me? I was thinking along the lines of Infinicaps or Obligatos. Thoughts? |
CS3 lovers - just saying that the CS3.5 is really a CS3 with more sophisticated drivers. Same concept, functionally same cabinet. Any future life we develop for the 3.5 will apply to the 3. We have a good midrange replacement candidate. A replacement tweeter will be easier to find. The woofers are battleships and repairable.
The real issue with the equalized sealed-box 3s is that the boosted bass can bottom the woofers, and also puts real strain on the midrange. I am working toward keeping the sealed bass as-is (unequalized) and augmenting with a subwoofer crossed over to match the natural second order bass roll-out. That frees the 3 drivers to operate in their natural range for lower distortion and longer life. I now have a pair of CS3.5s, and they really are quite good, especially for 1983 (CS3) and 1985 (CS3.5).
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silvanik
Excellent advice. Good to see you again.
Happy Listening!
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utrak
Good to see you here again. Thank You for the update and confirmation via Rob's help regarding your 3.0 loudspeakers. 36 years and going strong is incredible!
Happy Listening!
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utrak
glad to hear that your 3.0s are now back to full life, as they deserve.
I guess that Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service is the only one that can provide the right spare parts nowadays. I purchased a full set of spare driver for my 3.6s because my intention is to keep these speakers lifetime, no other Jim Thiel in the view for the moment, he was not one among others, he was a unique talented engineer that we miss, a lot.
Luckily we still have Tom, his brother as part of living history of this amazing brand, thanks Tom being so active here, thanks Tom being so active here, your competence is great as your humility. Even if I gonna to buy another pair of top speakers in the next future, something based on trasmission line with 18" woofer Thiel will remain with me.
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Hi Everybody, About a year ago, I posted about a problem I was having with my Thiel CS
3.0s that had not been used for many years.
The soundstage was off and it seemed to follow the speaker. It wasn’t obvious whether it was the
crossover, midrange, or tweeter. Well,
after a lot of help from Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service, I was able to
determine that it was the tweeter. I
also verified that the 36-year-old crossover was in great shape and all of the
caps were in spec.
The rest of my system now consists of a PS Audio PWD II
w/bridge, Dodd battery tube preamp, and a Pass X150.8 amp, which replaced a
pair of ASL Hurricane tube monoblocks. My
acoustically treated room is small (11’ x 16’ x 10’) so I’m not using the bass
equalizer. I also use REW room
correction software. After installing the tweeter that Rob sent, I think that my CS3.0s sound amazing, especially considering
the fact that they are 36 years old and 5 of the 6 drivers and the crossovers are
original.
I also wanted to thank whoever brought up the OCOS speaker
cables earlier. I have a 30-year-old triple run
pair that I wouldn’t have considered using had it not been for this thread. I installed them and they are definitely better
than the off-brand cables I was using. I
guess that I’ll have to throw in the Magnan Vi interconnects next 😊
I was trying to find a pair of 2.4s but the 3.0s sound good
enough for me for now.
Thanks again everybody,
utrak
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dsmarschall
welcome into Thiel's family, you will be pleased by your "new"fantastic 3.6 as I daily do.
If I can, and whether you plan to keep these jewels for long time, I suggest to purchase some strategical spare driver as I did, one tweeter and one mid, they are the most critical parts in this wonderful project and the "real" original drivers start to be very hard to find due to the poor stock available nowaday, furthermore keep in mind that only the original part number will assure the sound performance as intended by Jim Thiel.
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Looking at Tomthiel's virtual system page is like to jump in one of the best dream you can have: Thiel loudspeakers factory operating at its max, well alive and the feeling of a lot of love for music in the air.
Compliments Tom!
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dsmarschall
Welcome! Good to read that you found us. What other gear including cabling rounds out your system? I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.
Happy Listening!
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I bought a pair of 3.6 and have a pair of prima Luna mono blocks powering them , sounded really good and added a pair of rel sh/5 subs. This package sounds incredible. |
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vair68robert
Nice score on the amp. This leaves plenty of money for the next upgrade via Steve and company.
Happy Listening!
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@beetlemania
I have thought of a way to connect the wiring with faston connectors ,
I'll attach the female end to a 14 gauge solid wire that is soldered
in/on the soldering rings and the male on the wire .
This will allow me to install the wires first and be able to remove the boards as I replace componets .
I'm also thinking ( again ) of using the 15.5awg , partconnexion has
Cardas wire on sale $1.95/ft
( I buy it from Michael Percy with price matching ) .
you can contact me by e-mail ( from page 155 ) .
So far it looks like the total cost would/should be $600 max to be spread out over 3 or 4 months ,
not bad considering that over 8 months I spent $1300 on the amp .
Rob
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beetlemania
Thank You for your continued DIY approach towards improving our beloved loudspeakers. Your hard work has not gone un-noticed.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the follow up. Your room/space is pretty close to the image I had pictured- a cool lab of sorts. Hope you are well this Spring day.
I look forward in reading about your continued experimental successes.
Happy Listening!
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@vair68robert Sounds like you have a solid plan for an upgrade path and Tom might have some ideas for you. Here’s my two cents. Do you have the schematic? If you’re on a budget you should target the parts in the feeds, rather than shunts, and prioritize the coax filters over the woofer (CS2.7 has electrical XO for the coax, right? CS2.4 coax is mechanical). That said, I was able to hear a difference among two voltages of otherwise identical capacitors in the woofer shunts, so *everything* should be assumed to make at least some sonic difference. I recommend replacing as many resistors as possible on both boards as this makes a nice sonic difference for relatively little cost. Some of the CS2.7 values cannot be matched directly with MRAs, you will have to get creative with parallel and series replacements to get the correct resistance and power ratings. I noticed that PartsConnection has better pricing than Sonic Craft right now. Clarity Cap CSA is a great sounding cap and a good value. Higher voltage has thicker film and this is desirable for the midrange where our ears are most sensitive. The downside is higher voltage caps are larger and more costly. CMR is said to be a step up from CSA but I haven’t heard these. You might also consider a bypass (1% or less total capacitance) on coax feed caps. I used Multicap RTX and heard an improvement in transients and, maybe, improved resolution. I was curious to also try CMR (Tom offered that as an option), Audyn True Copper Max, and/or Jupiter copper foil as bypasses. I dropped those plans after I put in the Cardas which just put the “cherry on top” of all the sonic improvements I heard along the way. A couple of other things you might consider . . . 1) electrolytic capacitors will drift with age and this type is sonically inferior to film type, even if in a shunt position. The downside is replacing ELs with film is costly and requires far more space. You would need to make an entirely new board to replace that 400 uF EL with film caps. 2) Foil inductors are said to be an improvement over coils. I have ERSE FoilQ in the feed paths for both the coax and woofer boards. I did not make this particular sonic comparison, however, because I replaced the caps and inductors together.
Finally, Tom had cautioned me that such wholesale replacement of parts could upset the sonic balance in unpredictable ways and that one check was to compare the total resistance of the circuit before and after. I didn’t do this until after I replaced all the resistors but my final boards are within 2% of both the OEM boards with Mills MRAs and the values on my copy of the CS2.4 schematic (the CS2.4 woofer filter is almost a flow through, <1 ohm). |
Rob - try me at tom thiel at sign worldpath dot net.
Tom
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@tomthiel
Thank you for contacting R.G., I've called a couple of times without an answer and no I haven't received your e-mail ( darn it ) .
Please tell us more about your wire experiments .
@beetlemania
Thanks for the idea about replacing the 25 watt resistors .
I will be using Mills resistors , replacing the ERSE caps
with Clarity CSAs and one CMR and am concidering the 68uf Topmay caps with Clarity CSAs .
I have decided to use Cardas 17.5 awg chassis wire for speaker connections while increasing to 15.5 awg to the crossover boards .
I have been inventoring and pricing the parts ( that I can see the values ).
I took out the Mid/tweeters ( and seperated the wires ) and one woofer
to see how easy or difficult it would be .
And have you made your finial determination about speaker cable connecting ?
@jafant
I understand the idea of keeping it stock because of it's uniqueness ,
but since I started looking into the quality of the componets I want to improve what I have , besides I think there are 8 other pairs out there .
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unsound
Geared toward home theater or 5/7.1 audio systems- Yes.
Happy Listening!
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beetlemania
Modding unique (only) -yes.
I would keep that particular pair (stock unique).
Happy Listening!
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I would consider keeping your CS 2.7 loudspeakers as is, experimental/unique Swapping that multistrand for Cardas would also be unique, no? |
^Geared for the home theatre crowd. |
unsound
I have heard many PP owners report that this speaker was made for a challenging/difficult room or space. Keep us posted on your project.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the follow up on Rob Gillum. Good to read that he is well and (hopefully) working during this down cycle.
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
I would consider keeping your CS 2.7 loudspeakers as is, experimental/unique. It would be interesting to learn if there are other Nashville models that exhibit the same wiring configuration?
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for posting pics in Virtual Systems. Very cool !
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
We contact each other by personal email/phone outside of Audiogon's personal message (PM) system.
A'gon's system can act tricky at times. It helps to spell out the words to your personal email address and/or phone number.
Hope this is helpful.
Happy Listening!
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Rob - I suspect that the only substantive difference between your 2.7 XOs and KYXOs is the wire. There may be small component value differences to compensate for the wire. Rob G. says all the 2.7s were built in Lex under his supervision. So your Tennessee Thiel's seem to be experimental. Let me know if you got the private email I sent to you.
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Question: What was the outcome of the electrical drain off the driver baskets. Awhile ago someone (Thieleste?) did a comparison. All comments welcome.
Background: I am working on thermal stabilization and that might interface with electrical draining if it is beneficial.
ThanksTom
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@vair68robert
Looks like at least one 25W resistor on each board. That 2 Ohm on the coax board could be replaced with parallel 4 ohm Mills MRA-12s. That would yield a 24W rating. Close enough, I think. The CS2.4 has a 30 ohm resistor on its coax board. Tom had me use parallel 60 ohm for more surface area and improved thermal management. I bought mine from Sonic Craft. Had to mix and match from the older Mills and newer Vishay Mills to get the proper values at each position. Mine are all 12W versions, OEM sandcasts were 10W, so I gained a spot of headroom.
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I suggest checking with Rob G re spare parts . |
@tomthiel, speakers must be placed on built in shelf.
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Beetle and Rob - I got an answer from RG that all pre-sale (2013) CS2.7s were made in Lexington, with PtP, parts like Rob's, etc. but with standard 18 solid twist hookup wire. We think this pair was a trial at New Thiel and we're investigating whether any parts values were changed to accommodate the different wire configuration.
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Unsound - Problematic rooms and PowerPoint 1.2s seem to be made for each other.
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@beetlemania
Thank you for the compliment ,.
It was the wiring and my attempt to advise other 2.7 owners about a tweek ( seperating the wires ) that Tom informed me that I own
FrankenThiel speakers !
My next project will be to replace the wires , first I would like to
replace/ upgrade and increase awg to the crossover boards .
But it looks like I would have to disassemble the speaker ,
so I would also replace/upgrade the wires to the speakers ,
that is where I am at a crossroad ( with plenty of time to think about it ) ,
to use Cardas 18.5 awg to all the speakers , to increase that to 15.5
or to have 3 different gauges like you've done .
Resistors might be next , depending on how difficult the wiring project turns out to be .
Mills does not manufacture 25 watt resistors , so only the 10 watt
ones can be replaced by Mills .
I am really suprised to here that you see that the parts quality
is higher that your OEM 2.4SE !
But very happy about it .
It would be great to be able to see Kentucky crossovers and compare them to my Tennessee crossovers , maybe the only difference are the wires .
Rob
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@vair68robert Thanks for posting pics of your CS2.7 crossovers. Fascinating to see that compared to my FST (China)-sourced boards that were OEM in my CS2.4SE. Yours are point-to-point on Masonite compared to my PCB (@tomthiel says PTP was the Thiel protocol for most of the company's history). Also, your parts quality is definitely higher than my OEM boards. Other than the excellent Clarity SAs on the coax feeds, I had CYC MKT (polyester!) caps, loosely wound coils, and unlabeled resistors. But I was probably most surprised to see that multi-strand hookup wire on your boards (reminds me of what I used for speaker cabling when I had a mid-fi system). My OEM hookup wire was solid core (18 ga) the + and - wound to 3 twists per inch. Tom told me that was the Thiel standard. Your boards seem to be a quasi Frankenstein of classic and new Thiel (mostly in a good way!). I wonder if yours are typical of all CS2.7.
But my Tom Thiel-designed boards are a whole 'nuther level! If you're inclined, you might play with upgrading the parts quality on your boards. An easy and affordable place to start is to replace those sandcast resistors with Mills MRAs. I replaced all of my resistors for about $100 - that was my first upgrade before the full rebuild.
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@tomthiel, Thanks! Looking to help a dear friend set up a system in a rather problematic room.
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