Thiel Owners

What an amazing thread guys.  Thanks to all who are posting such cool stuff.  I love to learn and am open minded (regardless of how I may come off when posting).

I have always loved CF and it's usage.  When Richard saw some walking sticks I own (I use a rollator for most of my walking), he noticed the same CF he uses for his drivers.  It's a very expensive and highly specialized CF that isn't as easy to use as most of the CF on the market.  

Materials matter as much as implementation.  Caps and inductors are next in line from what many designers have shared over the years.  Cool thread guys.  Thanks.

Didn't know you guys were islanders.  I'm up in CT. Would love to meet up when things clear up, lol.  I've never really been to Long Island other than Fischers island via boats and JFK, lol.

I usually dislike the NYC dealers as everyone has been kind of a dick to me.  

My buddy Johnny Rutan (Audio Connection) sells the Belles.  I love the line.  The new Aries Integrated is one of the great buys in all of audio.  David knows what he's doing.  I can easily see an amp like that on a Theil.  That would be a good match I assume.

Hi Jafant.  it's great to be posting a bit again.  Jim was a neat guy.  I was blessed to meet him a few times.  The local dealer was the biggest Theil fan.  he still owns a pair of the big ones.  I think he finally got rid of the new ones though.  They were a bit too hot for my ears in the 90's, but I realized later that was because they ran them with the wrong electronics.  I have heard them with the larger Mark Levinson mono's in the past and really enjoyed that.  They also looked nice.  Heck, I also liked the JSE sloped speakers back in the 90's too,  Hmmm. I own Vandy Quatro's that are nothing like a 'box' speaker cabinet either...trend????  ha 

I'm up in Berlin. Half way between Hartford and New Haven.  Live on a pretty lake.  As for meeting him, I can't remember, but it was eon's ago.  I know it was twice as those were the only times he was up here from what I had been told.  Heck, I know I met Paul Klipsch as well as David Hafler and a few other top designers back in the very early 70's.  The store in Newington was a very well known one back in the day.  It's how I learned about audio.  Dad, who didn't make a lot, took me there nad we came home with a modest system of a Pioneer receiver, house made 3 way speakers (that were very good and how stores sold back in the day) and a Garrard TT.  I bought my own system in '73 with Bar Mitzvah money.  Yamaha YP 211 TT with the top Grado cartridge (Grado was in the store when I made my upgrade from the Garrard that came with it and told them to throw in the cartridge.  As most know, those all cost them about the same to make and they had a major uncharge.). I too had the same speakers as Dad had.  I rocked out with my drums in the basement while mom complained, lol.  

Joe, the owner was a named big band director and most of the audio elite would come visit him and he would always let me know who and when.  That's why I got to go in the basement and listen to the whole Klipsch line with the Phase Linear and Crown gear with top TT's, but I don't even remember which ones, lol.  I got a few of my HS buddy's to purchase systems through Joe's place, even though we had the shlock shops too.  Most got the baby Klipsch's (forget the name but they are in the classic line) with their larger Yamaha receivers.  Sorry to for the history, lol.  I've loved this hobby and the people in it for most of my life.  

I think it's why I get jaded at times and why I am always open to auditions to keep learning.  I know it's hard to believe, but I didn't love Vandersteen's until about 10 years ago when I went to the closest dealer in NJ to buy a new set of Pro Ac's D series and walk out of their knowing I was going to purchase a pair of Treo's once I saved enough.  I didn't even want to audition them, which was unlike me, but I was there with family as my cousin was getting married and he lives in Verona.  

Theil and Vandersteen's are so much alike, but sound so different.  I think it's the time alignment etc.. that my ears really appreciate hearing.  Both designers to me, are as important to audio as anyone else.

Add Brinkman to that list and you have zero feedback designs that work BEST with TRUE time and phase correct speakers like Thiel and Vandersteen.  Many speakers will claim they are like Wilson, but only the adjustable Wilson's are time correct, but are in no way phase correct as they claim.  

I can promise you that to MY ears there are differences for sure.  The deal with all digital is that it's so room/house dependent. That's mostly for power cords and conditioners and grounding.  Ethernet and USB do make a noticeable difference to me though.

Dave is a great guy and really knows his stuff.  He's fascinating to talk to.

One area in phase that you is always left out is the phase of the midrange cone during playback.  If you look at the Wilson midrange it's out of phase as it's not a true pistonic driver.  That's not marketing hype by Vandersteen.  

I have no idea, but I wonder if the pre 2000 cones were phase correct for any speaker?  There are break up's when they aren't pistonic and it throws things out of phase.

On the flip side of phase, not everyone is effected by it.  Some folks don't even notice it, but they may notice soundstage depth and pinching in the rear.  Those who don't notice phase anomalies may be more aware of stage size etc...  We all hear differently. 

I'm the first to say that I couldn't listen to Wilson speakers until recently.  They have done a great job of making a dynamic speaker, that is non fatiguing, but to MY ears lack the micro and macro details that I am aware of as my Vandersteen's don't smear.  It effects the leading and trailing edges per say.  

All speakers have to have compromises.  It's who's compromises you like best or who's marketing you buy into.  Makes it fun.

Same Jafant!  Hope all is well in your world.

Happy New Years to my Thiel friends.  Hope you ae all enjoying your music...

Jafant and others.  I have the new Vandersteen mono blocks in the house. I had two dedicated, individually grounded 20amp circuits installed behind the system.  The audio will all be on the same circuit.  I'll have the TV, Router (off an LPS) running off the other one.  

Waiting on the motorized quad volume control to arrive as it will be installed into my The Memory Player.  Mines the prototype before they order the new two milled box units.  I'll have the server, streamer, DAC and volume out of one box and all with separate LPS's etc...  Stealthcaps, Vishay naked and other top components.  Hopefully it will arrive this week. Can't wait.

Observation in this long standing thread...  Theil and Vandersteen owners are similar.  They are here for the love of music, more than the love of gear (which we also love).  It's about companies who buck the trend and make what they feel is gear that's closer to 'the truth'.  It's not even about competition with others, but about doing what they feel is right and not just about profits.  

We are all similar and it's why I always enjoy posts from owners of Theil. Back to regular programing, but had to post as it just hit me.

Happy Weekend Jfant!  I have to share something that I've wanted to share for a while now.  Every time I listen to my Vandersteen Quatro's, I'm reminded of the CS 2's from the early 80's.  I find it so interesting that Richard Vandersteen and Jim Thiel both produced a bass EQ (first of Jim's designs) as well as phase and time correct speakers.  They each had a different sounding high end, but both are the most coherent speakers going (the original Thiel's).  If Jim was still alive as Richard is, he too would have come up with his version of the 'pistonic' moving drivers just like RV.  

To me, these are the two greatest speaker designers as it's impossibly to say that a time and phase coherent speaker isn't the most correct way to reproduce the sounds that we call music.  That's basic physics.  Even AJ Conte (of Basis Audio, RIP) loved these two brands for how they achieve their great sound.

Just wanted to share some random thoughts.  thanks folks.

I'm really enjoying this long thread guys.   Thanks for letting it meander a bit.  

I just read about 'why' Vandersteen subs.  Being a Vandersteen owner (I still love other speakers too and have owned more than a few, but rarely change my main speakers (average over 15 yrs of owning my main speakers since 1969 before moving on).

Vandy subs are special in the way they mate with the main amps.  You don't ever lose the 'voice' of your main amps.  If you are using an NAD integrated amp, your sub will morph into the NAD sound.  If you are using the largest 70k amp, it will do the same thing.  You don't lose that house sound that you paid so much money for.  I never understood buying a sub and the amp doesn't match the main system.  It may seem small, but as you move up in a system you certainly hear the difference.  

The room correction is done in the analog domain too.  I have yet to hear anything done in the digital domain that you don't hear.  I've heard some exotic gear that uses DSP etc.. and It's never sounded as good to my ear than analog.  I do miss the ease of using the digital for correction, but I still can hear it.  Just my two cents and the Sub 3 is an affordable sub by most accounts.  Their Sub 9 is the best sub I've ever heard and I've heard it in a couple of systems that weren't Vandersteen speakers.  

IRT cables back in the day, I too owned the original Monster cables, but only AFTER I was using the Polk speaker cables.  They were my first.  I owned Polk 10's which were an amazing speaker back in the day and their speaker cable made a positive difference (Moscode and Roberson amps with a Conrad Johnson preamp and Rotel turntable with a top Grade cartridge as well as the top AT cart).

Bruce Brisson (started MIT) was the brains behind the original Monster stuff.  It was as good as anything on the market in the beginning for many reasons (little competition).  Noel Lee who owned it was like Mark Levinson.  Both men are sales men.  They knew what branding meant, before folks in audio even thought about branding per say (my ex is/was?? Mark's lawyer so I do have a spec of insight).  Colangilo was the engineer behind Levinson as most know.  I any case, when Bruce had his issues with Noel, he left to start MIT.  That's when I met Bruce and started using his top cables at teh time (the MH 770 wire used for the Spectral gear, not the 750 wire used on the majority of his top cables.  I also used the top 350 shotgun interconnects. He tuned the cables for my Quicksilver tube gear and it sounded better than the Kimber I was using.  When he and Karen Sumner has their split and she started Transparent, I used both of them, but the MIT sounded better in my system.  I think part of that was because my Quick preamp and monos were rewired with MIT's wire.  When we (dealer and Bruce) did the rewire (brand new units) it made a HUGE difference.  I never expected that type of difference.  Then they tube rolled and upgraded the sockets to ceramic and then upgraded the caps to the Supercaps or whatever the top ones at the time was and it kept getting better adn better.  

I know this is too long and im' sorry, but the point is that wire/cable changes teh sound, but not always for the best. It's why we see so much cable on the used market.  I now only use AQ cables.  I have had much of the uber expensive ones in and out of the system and the AQ cables constantly perform more neutral in my system than the others.  If I wanted to tune my system, I'd just purchase different components.  I want what I paid for. Again, just my opinion and it takes nothing away from others.  (using AQ Niagara 3000 with Dragon power cord into the AQ Edison outlet on dedicated, separate earth ground, Hurricane power cords for everything else, including the subs on the Vandersteen Quatro's, balance Fire interconnect from analog out of The Memory Player server/streamer/dac (bespoke) to Vandersteen MH5-HPA amps, William Tell Silver true bi wire with the Zero and Bass cables).  

I've been learning a bit on the Vandersteen forums (we have some Thiel lovers there too :) ) on peoples preferences for true time domain and phase correct speakers and how you need proper cables that are capable of delivering all that you paid for from your designer.  Hope all are well.  Pete

JFANT

ctsooner

Good to see you as always. Thank You for addressing Vandy subwoofer(s) and their application in audio systems. I enjoyed reading about M.I.T. and Transparent cabling as well. I hope you are ready for Spring.

Happy Listening!

First off, grills and designers are a funny thing.  Most want you to take them off and others say don't.  I was always told by my dealer who sold and owns the last of Jim's designs (the larger ones), to never take the grills off and he designed and voiced them with grills.  

Vandersteen's also use grills that shouldn't be removed.  I've never once taken the grills off my TReo's (sold) or Quatro's.  They have special heavy felt that are there for the upper drivers.  It makes a large difference as a dealer proved when I was auditioning them.

As for the MIT vs Transparent deal, feel free to DM me and I'll share my phone.  I knew the owners and designers of both back when the split happened.  It was so ugly.  My dealer was the only one left who sold both lines.  After he sold and got out around 2001 or so, they forced folks to make a decision one way or the other.  Transparent has done a much much better job of moving forward than MIT has IMHO.  That said, I'll take the AQ's that Garth Powell has designed over any of the exotics etc... 

Fascinating thread for a non Thiel owner.  I just remember auditioning the Thiel and Vandersteen together at my local shop back in the day (Take 5 Audio across from Yale).  I liked the Vandersteen 2's better as the high end was a bit less pronounced, but I think it also may have been the electronics (but it was all Threshhold if I recall).  

Both lines were better than anything else they had in the store to my ears.  They were a large Wilson dealer, but I never liked Wilson's as they made my ears bleed, lol...

It's that both speakers are time and phase correct. Many don't hear the differences, but I can nearly promise you that any Vandersteen or Thiel lover does hear it and is sensitive to it.  I'd love some Thiel owners of years past (when Jim made them) to post on the Vandersteen forums as we have so much in common. We have a lot of music threads there too.  This is a fun thread as folks appreciate the music and not just the equipment.

Happy Friday jafant.  Hope all is great...

I heard a pair of the 3.5's with Quicksilver amps and a pre back in the day and loved them.  I believe it was the 3.5's.  As most know, Johnny is a great guy and as good a brick and mortar as there is.  

Doing awesome my friend.  Yes, Johnny can be trusted.  He down sells more than anyone I know.  He always tries to get folks into things under their budget, which isn't always the best, but I fully get it.

I'm in the market for a DAC and am looking at the Brinkmann Nyquist mk 2, DCS Bartok, MSB Discrete with extra built in power supply and ProUSB dongle, Bricasti M1SE and the Meitner MA3.  Some used, some new.  Haven't heard the DCS or Brinkmann in years.  Going to hear the Bricasti and Meitner next week locally.  Never heard the MSB, but loved the MSB Select I believe it was a few years ago when it came out.  Dont' want to make a mistake here, lol...

I'll let you know as I go.  I'm kind of posting this on many posts to get an idea of folks who own these units and can share their thoughts.  We all hear differently and I won't use what folks share as gospel, but it helps sift through large lists.

Ok, update.  I found a demo Brinkmann that is totally up to date. From a dealer who just brought in Playback Design's Dream DAC (wish I could afford this one).  

I have two 'dream' DAC's other than Brinkmann.  Had to do the play on words.  I want to audition the Rockna Wavedream and the PD"s Dream DAC's to see if they will be better than the Brinkmann.  If so, I'll just sell Brinkmann for what I paid and get the one I want (if I can find either at used cost in the future).  

I can't wait to get the Brinkmann in.  As for streamers, the soon to be released The memory Player by Laufer will be a killer. I currently own their most up to date streamer/server and it's amazing.  It's close to the Taiko and once their new design and top end case is released, it will be a more real player vs Taiko and other top end servers.  I'm lucky to own the one I own.  

So well put Jim.  If I was feeling better, I'd give you a call to catch up, lol... :).  

The only reason I liked the Vandersteen's over the Thiel's years ago was because the Thiels were a spec bright. Nothing I couldn't live with and have fun with, but just a bit more than the Steen's. I ended up with Proacs for their imaging etc..., but the local Thiel dealer in Newington, CT (The Audio Store) is a great little shop. The owner, Bernie, owns and LOVES them.  With the right source and electronics, they just sing as a good phase and time correct speaker will do.  Many don't hear the time and phase deal, but if you are sensitive to it, then you have to have a speaker that does it right.  VERY few choices back in the day as well as now. 

So true Jim.  I almost bought the powered 50's for my TV in the bedroom.  There was a difficult hook up situation to use it seamlessly so I ended up with a Bluesound sound bar.  Easier to use the remote for the TV with it and the wife like that.

Thanks.  I'm sure I'll love it.  I have the opportunity to get a couple of the other top DAC's that I've been thinking about.  I need to get the Brinkmann in.  If I have a shot at getting the Rockna Wavedream in, I will audition it based on what I've been told by a few friends I trust who have heard it.  The price would need to be special as I can't afford to lose money when selling gear.  

UPDATE:
I order of the DAC's I probably want that are under 22k list (based on my own listening, hearing the lower end product and reading reviewers who have review both and I agree with the review of the lower price unit as well as my own ears)

Playback Designs Dream DAC
Brinkmann Nyquist
Rockna Waverdream

I had a few folks get in touch with me asking if I wanted to purchase their DAC/s. One was a situation where he has to sell off his system.  That was a Rockna Wavedream.  

The second was the Brinkmann Nyquist mk2 with latest upgrade.  I got a message from a nice guy in WI who was willing to sell his for a 'fair' price.  I know a few of the Brinkmann dealers and they said the for a 5 month old used Nyquist, that was a fair price.  For some reason, I didn't jump at this and I waited a few days.  I then got an email from someone I don't know telling me that a dealer in Canada had a demo unit he needed to move.  It was upgraded to the Mk2 with all the upgrades and it was 2k lower than the unit from WI.  I called and quickly agreed to purchase the unit.  He was the one who told me about the Playback Design Dream.  He loves the Brinkmann, but wanted to bring in the other DAC.  It's too new to find any used and even if used, it would be out of my range (10k or less).

Right after I told the dealer I'd purchase his demo unit, I got another email from someone who heard I had interest in the Rockna Wave if I could find one.  I have heard their other DAC and loved it, especially for the price.  I could have gotten it for a steal, but even at that, the Brinkmann was a better price and also a better value.  I know it plays great with Vandersteen's (or Thiels).  

It gets here on Friday afternoon.  I have to have my server builder come over to make some adjustments in my server.  He's installing a whole new USB card.  I am not sure which one, but he said it's not cheap, but it's the best USB solution he's heard to date.  He also going to do some more upgrades.  

I'm pumped and can't wait to get the new DAC in the system.  Back to your thread! :). 

Guys, my observation from afar is that you guys are like we Vandersteen owners.  The major reason we are so drawn to these two designs are because they are time and phase correct.  It's the only reason I find other GREAT speakers not my favorite or where I put my money.

I know a ton of Vandersteen owners who have owned original Thiels and visa versa.  It's very rare that someone who owns Thiels won't also like Vandersteen's and visa versa.  That's not marketing hype, that's really life listening.  Not everyone hears the difference between a phase and time correct speaker, but I bet 95% or more of you folks on this thread do.  JMHO

I like the newer Wilsons a fair amount.  I just love the Steen's, but I could easily own a pair of Wilsons.  My buddy just reviewed the Sophia 3 for TAS and I think he's going to get a pair of Alexa's potentially.  

The Nyquist showed up today.  I thought I could use the volume control, but just read that it's not meant to run directly to the amp. I could have sworn I read that it did.  Now I need ot get a used preamp, balanced and zero feedback (or possibly a used balanced Tortuga passive) to run until the pre I want to get is finished.  Oh vey... ha... I'll use the balanced headphone out at least.  

Hi J and all you Thiel guys. Hope the holidays were good to you all and that everyone is in good health. Happy listening.