The Apogee Stage is a formidable speaker - very musical 2 way. I have 2.3 also, and ESL63, the list goes on.... well it definitely stops well before Cerwin Vega often with the plastic $4 bullet tweeter... |
C-Vega “ Strong Like Bull, Smart Like Tractor “ |
Do Model 02 count ?
IMO Jim and Richard Vandersteen are on the short list of engineer / designers / music lovers who get it..RIP Jim
We moved a bit of Jims stuff with Audionics CC2 amps....back in the day..
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used gear shop u district Seattle almost always has a pair or three at fair prices.. |
should have checked before my last post.
they have:
CS 2
CS 3
CS 3.5
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use the Vandersteen manual to pick locations. very similar design philosophy w Jim. ignore the tilt, taken care of for you w sloped baffle, but the slope creates the limit of the 9-12' ish sweet spot. just design trade...
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Also for first order fans DSS in Carlsbad also has a big pair of Dunlavey.... |
I have seen the Carlsbad pair of 3.6 and aside from a woofer dust cap dent they are in incredible shape with absolutely lovely veneer. Local pickup only was offer to me and $400 the pair was quoted. IF someone makes the drive, let me know as I live about 2 miles from store - visit for a listen to music |
..... but in the end, it matters - the Vandersteen Carbon drivers are matched to .5 db or better in the chamber |
@jafant can you post or pm the link w Vandersteen |
I would spend more time on target impulse response and driver breakup and then the cabinet... then low frequency interactions with room, then high passing the mid bass on up ... and then worrying that last db here or there in frequency response....
my buck fifty, which is $.02 adjusted for inflation
now to Eric’s credit, while his opinion of Thiel high frequency performance is dated, he does have IMO an acute and appropriate focus on room treatments:-)
best
jim |
Just a reminder I do have and greatly appreciate my 2.3 + in Cherry - articulate and musical |
Tom - building his own composite airplane led Richard to Balsa and it’s the lightweight stuff with sattelite grade carbon fiber - the tough stuff is end grain bonding in a lightweight resin fiber layup. For background I don’t know the secret and I ran arguably the most advanced composite shop on the planet B-2, F-22 wing, 787 fuselage, development wing... low tech stuff... ha We all have our hard won secrets.,,
creating drivers w breakup far outside the pass Band is one of the holy grail pursuit imo, especially for those who care about time and phase. jim, Richard, Dunlavey- they all got it ! So glad you carry the torch Tom |
@jafant - yes Alan at HiFi Buys has a good sounding room, it’s before my time but at one time he was ( Audio Alternative) a Thiel dealer :-)
funny you mention it, Alan gave over his high end room to myself, Spouse and Labrador for 8 hours one Saturday to choose a power amp to drive 5A and eventually 7’s. You can see a picture of that in my Poverty Bay system pages.
fun |
And Vandy 7’s and the matching amplifiers, yes I know how spoiled ( blessed I am ) |
When the freakin pandemic is over, y’all who visit Seattle can hear some 2.3 that are lovely |
On pistonic for less...$$$$$ that is indeed the quest - part of the current issue is affordable core material ( air is free, balsa is not ) CF skins in prepreg, machining, autoclave time and then integrating it all into a top notch basket/magnet/motor and pole piece assy - aka Scanspeak ....
but remarkable that it is less than $750k paper midrange...
fun, something to do.... |
I would encourage isolation for the external filters and for Tom no wiring between input terminals and heavy curved traces on boards.
btw we did external filters on some KEF Kit Cantatas circa 1984 ish but also did aircore so were unable to understand impact of single variable change - needless to say those B-139 sang !!! |
Morning all :-) @jafant the ancient Labrador is a constant companion and music lover even while feigning sleep and disinterest. Yes maintaining three systems ( really 6 ) and not have them turn into museums is a challenge but one I greatly enjoy and TRY to learn something new each day ! |
Tom so glad you have discovered your condition and are getting some relief, I find many carry a hidden burden - May yours be light or lighten - I know I am blessed with excellent care in a world where many have none. |
Tom - thank you for mentioning the reference tracks you are using as well !!!! Music is after all the point !!!! |
We achieved natural laminar flow on some tricky bits of the 787.... I could tell ya how but if I told ya how, well.... you know the rest...,
two layer boards :-) but for a mod upgrade the point to point is an excellent choice. |
Jafant is the Aesthetix Mimas on your audition list ? |
Jafant if you are in NYC go hear Mimas at Johnny Rutan in NJ
and yes the Ayre is fantastic amp |
also, appreciate the review of Alan’s great HiFi Buys in Atlanta. I have over the years bought a bunch of gear there and have always been spoiled by him and his team.
best
Jim |
my compliments on this most excellent, civil and collaborative thread ! Many thanks Jafant.
I am working a trade for a pair of 2.3 with some updated drivers ( mid/tweeter and xover ) , dont have them as yet but will post when I do. I worked at a Thiel dealer in late 70’s early 80’s ( Audio Connection Huron, Ohio ) so I certainly appreciate the brand, history and especially Jim T and his engineering and principle driven approach. I am certain I met Jim while at CES in Chicago, probably at the Drake.
While I am a big Vandersteen fan, I do look forward to having a pair of Thiel in the arsenal !
Jim |
@tomthiel. i also meant to thank you and pass on my admiration for the great work you and brother did. And condolences. So very happy to hear you are reinvigorated and moving the ball forward again - rebirth is possible !!!!
my understanding is they are factory supported updates w dual magnets and related xover changes. I take delivery sometime Mid February and will get you serial numbers, photos, then.
My brother still has a pair of 02 circa 1979 ish..running strong !!!!!!
best !
Jim |
the Vandersteen aerodynamic driver patent has expired, reflections do matter
Bryston has a unique port shape also....at least in the mini-A
happy Friday to all !!!!!
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@pwhinson Lovely room and setup
the laser is your friend !!! Verify distance from seated position to each mid/tweeter also
i do this by shooting laser from my chin
also don’t underestimate the great sound possible in an odd shaped treated room :-)
thanks for the pictures !!
enjoy
jim |
no reply expected TomT..but I for one hope that w bankruptcy closure comes the return of the vaunted Thiel Audio name to you !!! my great hope, as these things go...
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@tomthiel. I took delivery today of a nearly pristine pair of 2.3 in natural Cherry veneer today from a great local Audiogon member.
serial numbers 4341 and 4342
They were original sold by Thiel to Fred’s Sound of Music in Portland, OR ( I have been a customer there every now and then.. ) even the shipping boxes are fresh
hope to listen to them this eve
missing the carpet spikes, what are dimensions? Or can I get those thru Rob ?
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Yes another great lost way early... more reason to enjoy our passion of music and good sound NOW !!!! |
I might be interested in the sound anchors
so I am 3 sides into Hypnotic Eye on Vinyl ( if you want to know what’s in the system look at my Vintage virtual system )
big fun, took two sides for the tube pre and power amp to smooth out..,,
nice sound overrall , at this point glad I have the MX-110 Z tone controls....
my ears are 8’6” from coaxial driver
as an aside
get yourselves a Leica Disto 2 or Bosch, makes setup so much easier,,,,
ymmv
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@tomthiel. Thanks so much for referral to Rob for parts...
the two access plates on bottom, I assume x-over can be accessed via the larger ?
i will stay in touch with 2.4 filter development- big fun.....
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@jafant System is Denon DP-35 F , Nakagoka 110 cartridge into a Croft RIAA-RS ( single chassis w NOS tubes ), into a Richard Modeferi hotrodded and restored McIntosh MX-100 Z also NOS tubes, into a Mike Samra hotrodded McIntosh MC240 ( paper in oil, modern regulation, etc, running NOS... cables a haphazard mix of Chord, Blue Jeans and Audioquest.....
CD source is McIntosh MCD205
Monday will switch our table for newly rebuilt SOTA Sapphire/Sumiko FT-3/Grado Reference-Platinum....
fun
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flat frequency response is just part of the work
time domian, energy storage and release are also important....
yes i am a Vandersteen fan for sure...
but as I dial them into my room the 2.3 are quite good
i will remove the bottom larger access plate.....if required, removing the passive radiator to access xover is not imo a good design tradeoff....especially mounted from backside of baffle as it appears to be......
as for no standards....true....so to learn where in the chain..things go wrong.....built a pretty good mobile recording rack.....let me tell you it is microphones.....
fun
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for those of you w access to live unamplified music consider your own experiments in the chain....
for analog get a Revox A-77 and a couple of decent microphones....hint check out the excellent recordings made by the late ( RIP ) Charley Hansen of Ayre....for his list of relatively inexpensive gear....all told this analog experiment will set you back about $2k....with good headphones, this will rival just about anything.....
for simple digital a Zoom H6 can be amazing...wayyyy under $1 k
otherwise get an Ayre A to D, and of course microphones....
then start comparing to what you heard....
a fun journey....your results may vary.... |
a zoom 6 at $400 is hardy what i would call unlimited $$$$$
a great learning tool, Has been for me anyway...
have fun
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model 2 have just now with recent price increase caught up with inflation.....
but my sense is both Jim T and Richard frugal engineers where cost and target price points are paid attention to.
The Quattro is a stunning value and with carbon tweeter outperforms the 5 a in every way except maybe the bottom 40 HZ
I know, I owned 5a for years...even the new Treo Ct has better mid and up performance than the vaunted 5a
i would LOVE to see Thiel get back in the time and phase fight..... |
yes Havens and Hardesty in SoCal
i met Curtis Havens in about 1988 in Tacoma where he set up shop as Advanced Audio. Curtis is an avid cold water surfer, retired. Sold Advanced to Definitive Audio of Seattle.
Advanced is a Vandersteen, ARC, Magnaplaner Ayre dealer...
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@thosb thanks - I greatly enjoy this thread and the joyful spirit of music lovers helping each other get the most of of the various systems w Thiel speakers often as the centerpiece.
the most excellent and forthcoming person u got the 2.3 from assured me they had the upgraded double magnet drivers and crossover changes - he knew all about it.
that will be one thing I check IF I break them open....
having fun ... |
@thosb. I will add some updated pictures of the vintage room... like most speakers that reside there, some tweaks and changes required to get best of them...
so far the Thiel require more toe in than the Apogee Stage, Vandersteen 1ci or the Quad ESL. The Nakagoka 110 can be a bit tipped up so I swapped in a Grado Ref Platinum last eve... that fixed that... finally my heavily modified Audionics CC2 solid state amp does a better job on the low end....
all fun
more photos later...
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my room is a mere 12’ 10” but i also have some large cabinets creating constraints......
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I
@beatlemania. yes, normally I would agree...but my room has some constraints on side reflections..so i am trading away a bit....switching to the Grado helped a lot....
i have them 7’ 1” apart, ears are 8’ 4” to coax unit. |
Still futzing....built a set of non bi-wire speaker cables w Canare wire, silver aQ spades and silver solder today... I . was running zippy do dah test bench speaker wire extensions as all I ever seem to have is biwire stuff... anyway sounding even better.... they the 2.3 are good for sure
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@Tomthiel - thanks for the trip down memory lane ! The 02 had a rightness about them- paired at the shop with Audionics of Oregon BT-2 and CC2 and a decent Turntable and Grado they would shine !
older brother still has his pair today !!!!
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OMG what a great story about Nelson and the hospital visit..... I may have been at that CES
dont forget the Dayton Wright either!!!!
One engineering techniqe is managing a balanced tradespace or even a weighted tradespace and being serious about your priority.... image, pitch, transparency, spl peak, spl Duty rating, etc
Jafant gave good advice on seeking out 5a and a better audition of the 2 series Thiel
have fun
enjoy the music
protect your hearing !!!!!
jim |
Jafant great score on the Ayre spinner..another world class audio company run by great engineers who love music..
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does anyone have pins or pin dimensions for the 2,3 feet/spikes
i left a voicemail with Rob G about a month agp.....
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How cool
people helping people :-)
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