Thiel Owners

Hello again fellow Thiel 'Goners!  Glad to have your continued advice and experiences with our beloved speakers.  Always a joy to catch up on what's being newly discussed.  I'm considering updating my original CS3.6 crossovers and was thinking about starting with caps.  Would you have some recommendations for me?  I was thinking along the lines of Infinicaps or Obligatos.  Thoughts?

Many thanks to your kind replies.  CSAs sound like the way to go then.  Now off to shopping and installing.  I'll keep you posted. 

Thought I'd pass along my rudimentary update on my exploration journey yesterday.  I managed to  remove the woofer with much labor.  I ended up removing the 6 screws and placing the cabinet, baffle down, on the carpet propped up with  a book on the top side.  Then I ran a 40 hz tone from a generator at about 90 db to vibrate the woofer from the cabinet.  It took about 20 seconds!  Not sure if this is text book operation and hopefully not damaging to the components...  Anyway, I was at least able to verify that the original caps are indeed Clarity Caps SAs as I am almost certain that this is the first re-cap these 3.6s have ever experienced.  As I am a musician by trade and quite the amateur with regard to electronics, I continue to welcome experiences, anecdotes, and any tricks you may have as I continue on my journey.  I am handing with a soldering iron though.  I would image that the bulk of the laborious work removing the remaining drivers and components will need to wait for a few weeks while I finish up my online spring teaching schedule but have plenty of time to dig in later in June.  I did have a chance to look at the Carity Caps website and found the CSAs with ample information.  I also found a next gen CMR:

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/cmr.php

Have any of you guys had experience with these?  Also, while I have the crossovers out, what other electronics should I consider replacing that may need replacing? 

Just wanted to update you guys on my XO progress with my 3.6s. I removed the woofer and was able to confirm my ability to remove the XO. I originally thought it would be a more laborious process but, fortunately, all seams pretty modular and accessible thanks to the Thiel team's ingenuity.   My goal is to have an end result as close to original spec as possible unless an upgraded set of parts would clearly enhance the sound without changing the overall character. To this end, I would like to select parts accordingly. So far I have Claritycaps CSAs and Mills MRA-12s on my list. I do have some hesitation, after reading Tom's historical background on Jim's resistors, to consider leaving them in place if they would stilI be in good working order. I'm also probably going to leave the coils alone. I need some advice on the remaining XO parts which I am unable to identify. Any chance I could get you guys to check out this photo (below) to identify the large yellow capacitors and what their values might be? I couldn't find any markings. Also, beetlemania, I stand corrected that the electrolytic caps are NOT Claritycap SAs as I originally posted. I thought on my first exploration, with bad lighting, that they were. After further investigation, they look similar but have a big "S" printed on them. Any of you guys have an idea what brand they are? Also, in general, which parts would still be worth keeping in place?


https://photos.app.goo.gl/bUctYBhfecLYzWdi9

Many thanks for all the responses towards my 3.6 XO project. This is proving to be such fun already and so glad to have the history along the way! With regard to the Claritycaps: I see 250v and 630v option. I know that the 8.2uf version will be used as recommended by Tomthiel however, I can't seem to find 630v versons of some of the remaining ELs if required. The original Solen VersaTronics are rated at 400v so I'm a little stumpted here. I'm checking out Madisound and Partsconnexion for all components. Any other referrals would be greatly appreciated.

Hey fellow Thiel 'Gonners! Just wanted to give you updates on my 3.6 XO project. Thanks for all the wonderful advice thus far! I placed orders for Mills MRA -12 resistors some time ago and they have trickled in slowly due to shipping delays from our present unpleasentness. The first round did come in last week and was able to place 1, 6, and 15 ohm resitors into service this weekend. WOW! I'm just astounded at difference just a few new resitors can make: much taller and wider sound stage with less congested imaging. Can't wait for the remaining to arrive and have already placed orders for the ClarityCap CSAs as well.

There is smige of midband Squack but I am to understand that it's from the heated solder and will settle after time. 24 hours in and I'm already noticing it's disipation.

I'm continuing to stick with original layout values for now however I discovered a discrepency in my XO setup: the original layout uses a 1.8ohm resistor in series after the midrange first station gang . my XO uses doubled 10 ohm restistors in it's place. These are original Thiel resistors so I know they were plaaced into service at the shop. I'm to understand that there were a few updates after the last layout was used and the final version printed though. Leave it to Jim and the team to continue upgrading even after production was well underway; a testimate to their integrity and passion. More to come.

Hey Guys!  I'm fairly new to this thread however, I have been watching from the sidelines for about a year or so and have greatly appreciated all information the advice that has been posted.  I own a pair of CS 3.6s which I absolutely adore.  As with other Thiel owners, I am concerned about replacement parts or repair should they have issue in the future.  I am wondering about part compatability specifically the tweeter.  Does anyone out there know if the tweeter for the CS 2.2 is the same as the CS 3.6?

Many thanks Tom and to all others who have graciously commented thus far!  I figured the 2.2 tweeters might be compatible matches for the 3.6s given the same manufacturing year (1993).  I've already been in a dialogue with Rob and he informed me that he could probably repair  them if necessary.  Currently mine are in good working order however, my 16 year old son and I kid around about NOT blowing the them; often referring to Jim Thiel who apparently was prone to blowing his on the 3.7s during shows in the day, lol.  Glad to be on board the forum guys.  I currently have my 3.6s powered by ARC DS 450Ms and loving the sound!  Just recently added Signal Magic power cords (replacing the stock cords) and found the center mid-band to have more presence as well as more pronouced bass and soundstage imaging.  Looking forward to more as they continue to burn in; so far about 100 hours or so. Eventually, I might look to refurbishing/upgrading the crossovers and I'm sure I'll have many questions for you all along the way. I'll keep you posted.

Hey Thiel 'Gonners! Just finished my last round of updates for my 3.6s including the big 100uf ClarityCap CSAs and a handful of Mills MRA-12s among other componets. The sound has, for a lack another word: CLARITY! The bass is much more controlled with better low extention. With the lack of a muddier midbass, the upper mid-band and treble extention are also more revealed. It's quite a trip to listen to them now and more to come after my back-ordered bypass caps and more Mills come in another month or so. In the mean time I'm sending my midranges to Rob at CS for rebuilding next week. While I wait though, I ordered and received a set of ScanSpeak Discovery 12w/4524gs to use in the interum. They were recommended for 3.6s by a reputable distributer but I hadn't seen mention of them here on A'gon nor has Rob heard them used in 3.6s before. I've had them for testing for about a week now and my summed mono A/B comparision reveals them to be forward and too narrow a bandwidth thus far. I'm running them through a pink noise generator for another 100 hours or so but have suspisions they'll fall short of the original, as to be expected. Perhaps some voicing in the crossover would help however, since I'm only using them in the interum, I think I'll just wait it out; yerning for Rob to send back the Vifas ASAP. Anyone else had experience with these ScanSpeaks before or have sugestions?

It sure has been fun catching up with you guys on our forum over the past few days. Looks like the 3.5 continues to get a lot of love and, with the Great Unpleasentness among us now, all these creative minds with more time on their hands, are comming up with so many really wonderful ideas for modding. Keep it up guys! It's so fun to follow your progress and hope that my 3.6 project helps others in some small way as well.

Hi Thiel 'Goners.  Just thought I would chime back in after a reading the new thoughts about cables.  I have been running my 3.6s, via ARC LS 26 pre  and ARC DS 450Ms monoblocks, with a limited number of speaker cable options starting with BJC Beldons.  I was just starting out a couple of years ago with this component match and discovered a new pair of Tara Labs TL 2/14 for a reasonable price on Amazon: $300 for 6ft pair (no longer available).  Once installed I noticed quite a bit more warmth, bass girth, and less treble fatigue than the BJCs.  I am a concert violinist by profession so treble resolution and general overall warmth are important to my ears.  Later on last year, after consulting with the Cable Company, I was encouraged to try some Tara Prime RSC 2s however they were beyond my price point at the time: about $700.  My recent compromise purchase this year was a pair of gently used Tara 8 ft Vector 1 RSCs: luckily found on A'gon for $375.  These are much larger, separated cables and I can't  believe what a difference even from the TL 2/14s!  Imaging, definition, soundstage, dynamic range, and timing have all been enhanced all without sacrificing warmth.  I  have also had Tara Vector 1 and Prime interconnects throughout my rig for some time now and absolutely love the sound!

Hey Thiel Gonners! Just finished my last round of updates for my 3.6 XOs. My midranges came back from Rob a week ago: he replaced the voice coils and surrounds. He was even so thoughtful to included solder samples for me to ensure the proper termination. They sound fantastic by the way with more transparency and balance; just a slight forwardness to the upper midband which I feel is more settled now with this present round of XO updates. For this round I changed out the remaining Solens Caps and started replacing the ERSE 1uf bypass caps with ClarityCap CSAs: the quadruple treble bypass feed stage. Rob also send along some original 18 AWG twisted pair harness wire to extend my leads to the drivers which I was thankful to have.  Before, I had to splice my runs (cringe).  As an aside: what intersting discussions we're having about different wire runs Rob and Tom. Star quad runs sound like fun some day and always glad to have further insights and history.  Anyway, I ran my summed mono A/B comparison tests yesterday and confirmed the results this afternoon In stereo. Over all the sound now has less forward upper midband and more controlled lower/mid bass than before. Threre is also more treble extention and presence. Vocals and solo instrument are more pronounced with greater clarity without being forward or unbalanced in the presentation. Kind of reminds me of a well implimented horn setup rig. Klipsch la Scalas come to mind but with all the attributes of well executed bass authority as well! It's also fun to hear new details, 3d imaging, and air now present. On the down side: the lack of lower and center midband is creating a just the slightest sense of sterility without as much warmth as before. Perhaps further break-in time will reveal more in time. I am to understand that more mid bass will show itself in a day or so hopefully warming things up a bit. I do feel that sound is more balanced and refined than with the original Solens/ERSE caps as I'm sure they must be showing there age with technology advances and such. It's well worth the effort and I'm learning so much along the journey! Many thanks again to all who have supported me thus far! Next up will be to replace the remaining "Thiel" resistors with more Mills MRA-12s and the final round will be replacing the remaining ERSE 1uf caps with CSAs as well.  Afterward, I look forward to further tweeking as there'll certainly be voiceing down the line as well. What fun!!

Hey Fellow Thiel Gonners! Wanted to concur with Prof and Tomthiel about just leaving the 3.6s spikeless on hardwood floors. I experimented with spikes for a while and all the warmth got zapped. I've just left them alone on my hardwood ever since and the interaction with the wood is quite appealing . Sure would've been fun hearing them in the farmhouse though.

Been a while since my last 3.6 XO update for you so thought I'd fill you in. As a professional musician (violinist)/instructor by trade, I probably spend anywhere between 6 to 10 hours a day in critical listening mode. Whether it be in my own personal practice, engulfed in preparation with a chamber or orchestral ensemble, or with my many students, I find great joy in hearing musical progress along the journey towards the finished product. This has also been my mindset with regard to my ever changing audio systems and especially this most recent project. Kind of reminds my of when I was much younger and digging around in the trunk of my Olds Delta 88 installing Precision Power amps and JL subs actively crossed with KLH 24 db sloped XOs. What fun!

Now on to the nuts and bolts of my most recent iteration. I Finished the transfer from the stock ERSE bypass caps, updated with ClarityCaps CSAs, and Thiel resistors updated with Mills MRA-12s. The only stock parts remaining now are the Acousta-Coil inductors and the Versa-Tronics shunt caps. One of the really fun things I ended up doing was running the XOs outboard, via longer twisted pair 18AWG harness extension leads from Rob, for easier swapping. What I wasn't prepared for was how much the sound changed going outboard The sound-stage and presence are just breathtaking! I even ran a preliminary A/B comparison to hear the difference just covering one XO with towels and a plastic washtub and leaving the other al fresco. The results were very much in favor of the uncovered and assume that the added heat contributed to a slightly restrained sound with less air, especially in the center mid-band. That said, the air movement from the woofer inside the cabinet should provide sufficient dissipation to keep the heat at bay else we'd certainly know if there were alarming issues. Incidentally, I did remove a pair of the original Sorens caps to find some minor scorching from the on-side Thiel resistors so at some point heat was a problem, though my 3.6s are early production. I was also made aware that an updated XO layout was later released with spacings between these culprits. Glad to know the team was still vigilant after first run productions. With this in mind I'm sure you can imagine that I've indeed setup adequate spacings with my updates. When all is said and done, I'll perform a more thorough A/B test, with XOs inside/outside the cabinet, in a few weeks to verify sonic differences.

Probably preaching to the choir here but, at this juncture, I can't say enough how rewarding this entire regiment of updates, though challenging and laborious at times, has been. The improvements are well beyond my expectations and far beyond any source update or tweak offered me to date. Over the past few months I find the Mills resistors give the sound more girth and presence adding to the dynamics, transients, and timing. The ClarityCaps give the sound more detail and refinement adding to the clarity (for lack of another word), sound-stage and extension. For instance: in Diana Kralls "Start all over again", being able to more fully discern all the pitches in the muted trumpet/piano intro and more of the subtle nuances in Diana's sultry voice, albeit heavily processed I'm to understand. Or in Steely Dan's "Black Cow" hearing Walter's pick etching the D'Marzio by the bridge on his Strat eliciting an almost teardrop decay in the beginning lead. Also first noticing the fade to right, - just ABOVE Donald's almost southern dialected voice - of the backup vocals mid-stream in the first verse. Quite inspiring and uplifting, in the Telarc Robert Shaw/ASO Stravinsky Firebird, is to hear more of the rosin dissipation from the bow's horsehair giving way to the elegance of the melody in the solo strings. The same for the breathy transients toward a seamless unending line, being much more engaging in the winds. All this enhancing the dialogue exchange in the "Round Dance". Of course the impact from the bass drum in the "Infernal Dance" is just plain SCARRY now! Alas, I wax rhapsodic... As I progressed, I fully expected diminishing returns the further down the rabbit hole I went however, my A/B summed mono comparison tests continued to reveal quite noticeable improvements every step along the way. For now, I'll probably let things settle for a few weeks to assimilate the new sound and resume with doubling/combining the Mills resistors, at stock values, in mid October just to see what else is possible. Continued appreciation for all the help and support along the way!