The Streamer-Dac-Preamp Chain

I'm afraid I'm not sure about the price, but I'd keep it simple.  Either stick with Moon or consider T+A or Bricasti. I'd suggest Mytek but I'm not really sure how/where they are in terms of manufacturing.

Another MAJOR consideration is the user interface for any streamer.  Make sure you like it, compatible with your devices (iPhone vs. Android) etc.

I strongly recommend skipping the preamp and putting your money into a streamer DAC.  Does the Auralic play well with Roon? 

I am a huge fan of the Grimm MU1 streamer which also works as your Roon core.  The Grimm MU2 came out and you can find good deals on the MU1 as people upgrade.  It has a very loyal customer base.

Get a DAC with volume control.  One of my favorites is the DAVE.  DAVE is gettng kindof long of tooth but still performs excellently and has an excellent volume control.  It takes the AES input which is the only option with Grimm.

Alternatively, I  like Lampizator tube amps.  I have a GG3 with engine 11.  You can find a Big 7 or other DHT based Lampis well within your price range if you don't buy a pre.  Volume control if optional on the Lampizator so get one that has VC.  Most lampis also have one analog in so using it as your volume control you have an option to run an analog signal thought it if you have another analoge source.  I like the single ended and find no need to go balanced for a DAC.  This saves 50% on sets of output tubes which is nice when you tube roll.

Finally, I'd say Preamps in the price range you listed are going to be well below the quality of your other components.  If you must have a pre, consider Apollo Audio systems or Aric Audio.  the latter has become popular and is more expensive.  the first is not so discovered yet.

Jerry  

Sounds like you have done some thinking about this. Your thoughts on individual components are good. I think opening about a third on each. I would consider revisiting the Benchmark Preamp... these are extremely detailed and transparent and tend to loose the music in achieving the level of detail. I would recommend a warmer more natural sounding preamp... and you definitely want a preamp. These give you the natural and fullness to the sound. I would look at a used Audio Research, Conrad Johnson. Rogue also play in this field... but they are rather solid state sounding... but still a much more musical choice than Benchmark. DAC, good choice.

Also, I prefer Aurender to Aurlic. I owned an Aries G2 and the Aurender outperformed and was much more reliable than the G2. However, from what I have read, the G2.2 has much improved sound quality. So it would not be a bad choice... I’m sure you will be happy with it.

Yes, on the Benchmark LA4. I am listening to the CODA #16 (similar to the Moon 761) with the Benchmark HPA4, and I love it. I also have a Holo Audio Serene preamp in another system which is like the LA4/HPA4 but adds a tiny bit of warmth.

I have a super complicated and high powered ROON setup (running on a cheap $500 Dell PC in another room under a bed). I have 3 Sonore Optical Rendu’s for fibre optical streaming. I have compared this to the Lumin X1 streamer (using fibre optical) and the PlayBack Designs STREM-IF (SPDIF) and the OpticalRendu did well. The 3 different streamers sounded different, and I had all 3 in the house at the same time.

DAC’s to flavor the sound. Especially with the LA4 and 761 amp which will not color the sound.

BTW - if you want to save some money try the Schitt Wotan amp for $2k. I have the CODA #16 and Schitt Wotan that flow between my 2 systems.

BTW2 - Give me a million dollars for audio and I still get the LA4 or HPA4.

Thanks, super helpful so far!

I re-read my wordy post. The Moon 761 power amp is a given, I have it and won't change it. So it's really the other components that are even up for discussion here.

@erik_squires yeah, I'm tempted to put the Moon 791 in between and forget about the whole thing. That's what I have in my other system and I'm very happy, but the itch to tinker never goes away :-)

The Benchmark preamp --- yes! transparency -- but I have to be honest and say that the loopy signature across the front is aesthetically problematic. Aesthetics matter...

@ghdprentice the Aurender (N200? can't afford the N20) is a great suggestion for a streamer. After my mini-debacle with the Auralic volume module (though the rest of the Vega is super good with Roon @carlsbad2 ) I'm not in an Auralic mood, so no Aries.

Which leaves the DAC. And yes @yyzsantabarbara the Holo Audio adds warmth; I've read about this elsewhere. This scares me because I don't want too much color on the sound. This DAC warmth business is going to be the ultimate reason why I'll probably wimp out and redo the Moon 791. But convince me otherwise! And thanks again...

Does Aurender work with Roon?  I know a lot of streamers that are not "Roon Ready" can be made to work but I think Aurender sees roon as competition and purposely prevents it's use.

Jerry

Hi @carlsbad2 I believe the Aurender N200 is Roon Ready.

@debrajray If you are not into the LA4 for aesthetic reasons consider the Holo Audio Serene preamp. It should be good with the Holo DAC you are looking at. The Serene is compared to the HPA4 in this review. The reviewer liked the Serene more.
Review Holo Audio Serene Level 1 preamplifier - Tastefully Serene - Alpha Audio

I am considering trading my Serene for a LA4. 

The Serene and LA4 I think are better than the 791 which I heard with the 761 and Paradigm Persona 9H speakers (not an ideal pairing). I think my preamp and DAC are better for a fraction of the price. The 761 amp is amazing and one I would like to get used in a few years when people start upgrading again. 

Hi @yyzsantabarbara I like your BTW2 comment! But let me head back to the pre-DAC bit for a second and the oRendu. I have Verizon Fios which is fiber optic up the basement in my apartment building and then distributes via standard ethernet cable, so I am guessing that I would need to use the Ultra Rendu instead with standard ethernet input --- does that difference fundamentally alter things at the streaming stage? And thanks!

The fibre used in the OpticalRendu cleans up any noise in your internal network. Whatever is connected to the Ethernet and into the RJ45 connection will likely inject noise into the network. That noise will potentially travel into your DAC. The UltraRendu does not help in this scenario, the OpticalRendu is the way to go. 

A fibre optical "moat" just before your DAC is ideal. Now the Lumin X1 is great at this because it has a fibre Optic connection in the DAC/Streamer. However, the DAC part is not as good as my Schitt Yggi+ OG DAC (my opinion).

The OpticalRendu is not theoretically perfect like the X1 because there is a conversion from fibre to USB and then into the DAC. However, the bits into the OpticalRendu should be clean since it traveled through the glass fibre optical cable. Glass cannot carry analog noise, thus a "moat".

This is how I am able to use a noisy $500 Dell PC to run my ROON Core. I have no keyboard, monitor, or mouse hooked up to the PC and it resides under a bed in the guest room. I RDP into the machine in the event I need to reboot or whatever. This hardly ever happens. The PC starts automatically up at 7AM and shutdown at 2:30AM.

I sometimes run processor intensive ROON convolution filters (for headphones). The digital balance (for speakers). Everything worked perfectly on this low-cost PC. I also use the copper wires in my house walls to move the bits from room to room. The OpticalRendu's are at the endpoints where I have audio systems. 

So easy, so powerful, and sounds perfect.

@yyzsantabarbara, I’m really exploiting your generosity here so please tell me where to get off. I live in Manhattan and have Verizon Fios. I believe it is FiberOptic all the way to the ONT in my apartment, but the ONT has only standard RJ45 Ethernet out! I just don’t see how to connect directly to the fiber optic "flow" here. Maybe I can get a third party router and bypass Verizon’s ONT but I am at the limit of my own technical knowledge at this point ... my question is, how did you set this stage up? (My Roon core is a Mac Mini btw in case that info is needed.) And as always, thank you!

Personally I'd got the 791 you'll obviously have synergy with your amp and fewer boxers. If you go the Auralic route perhaps the Altair G2.2 rather than the Aries?

Also since ChatGPT doesn't actually have ears it may not be a good idea to take it's recommendations.

@jond that was for our collective amusement. I believe it would be offended if told such a thing! Certainly Claude would be:-)

Altair no, given I can always use the dac of the Vega I already have...

FWIW.  Aurender N200, Esoteric K03, Benchmark LA4.  Then you might add the Stanford Research FS725 clock.

My chain is N100, K01 XS, Benchmark LA4, with the clock.

The sound would be very similar - the new K03 might beat my K01-XS.  The only real difference is the number of DAC's in parallel.

I have had a number of Power Amps between that and the Rockport Atria IIs, everything has sounded wonderful.  Detailed, neutral and natural, no HiFi artifacts.

@debrajray I use an older version of this network switch to convert Ethernet to fibre optical In my office I have 2 DAC and 2 OpticalRendu’s connect to this switch. Hook up your Ethernet to this switch and the connect the fibre SFP to the OpticalRendu.
Amazon.com: Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch 8, 8-Port Managed PoE+ Gigabit Switch with SFP, 150W (ES-8-150W),White : Electronics

What is a SFP?
SystemOptique Certified – Small Green Computer

Optical Networking – Small Green Computer (see SFP and cables here)

You can get cheaper but these match and work with OpticalRendu, which they also sell.

I have 3 of the fibre supporting network switches. The one linked above (older version) and the other 2 cost $79 and $49. They all sound the same to me.

All a streamer needs to do is receive digital audio via your LAN wi-fi or Ethernet cable and pass it on to a DAC via optical or coaxial cable. You just check whether it can handle the file types, sample rates, and frequencies that the source provides. Check out the user manual for the specs of the Denon LinkHS2 streamer, for example – quite versatile. You don't need to spend more than a few hundred dollars on it.

A DAC with excellent digital signal processing that gives you volume control, a five-band parametric equalizer, and other controls is the RME ADI-2 FS. It costs around US $1200. So why would you need a preamp? You can feed the DAC's analog output, RCA or XLR, to your power amplifier.

Hi @charles7 thanks. Yes I do know what a streamer needs. I’ve had a couple of them for years. But the chat with @yyzsantabarbara is super interesting for me as I’m learning a bit about optical Ethernet connections and like these crazy rabbit holes. I’m going to investigate — thanks so much @yyzsantabarbara 

Aurender N200... or used N10. 

@debrajray

As others mentioned, probably a bad idea to get a preamp+streamer+DAC in one box because most DACs are an afterthought rather than a high-quality DAC which is costly. Therefore it’s generally sonically better to get DAC separately. A few integrated have good DACs, but you’re only interested in the preamp.

Both the MBL C41 Network Player and the Linn Klimax DSM/2 with Organik streamer DACs offer great price/performance- see reviews.

Looking at your more neutral requirements, maybe the T+A DAC 200 would be an ideal choice

I’m puzzled why you started this thread under “Pro Audio”, when you’re looking for not professional audio but high-end audio. Some might not view your topic under “Pro Audio” aka less results.

 @kennyc I completely screwed up (can I change it?) never posted on this forum before. And thanks for your suggestions. 

@debrajray 

Consider auditioning Aurender A200 or A15 ahead of Moon 761. It doesn’t get any simpler than this! 

I have the Roon/Quboz down stream Moon 860 v1 and 2 Prima Luna Evo 400. In between Rose 130, PSA DSD MKii, AR LS28SE.  Perfect combination. 

Aurender N200 + T+A DAC 200. (T+A has preamp section.)  @Blisshifi can get you both for a good price below your budget.

@debrajray 

I have the N200 running into an original Denafrips Pontus ll DAC and very happy with the sound, although I am getting DDC curious. 😁

@curiousjim if I understand the acronym right, me too! Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions, and especially to @yyzsantabarbara who is sending me down a fascinating rabbit hole with the optical Rendu. I'm going to settle this first before moving on to the DAC and the preamp.

A one-box Streamer/DAC/Preamp that is Roon friendly, and DOES sound good is the Naim NSC222.  Quite glorious actually.  If you like it, Naim has an upgrade path, which is an external power supply that replaces the 222 internal supplies.  However, the NSC222 on it's own is very good.

@coffee-jerk thanks! Yes I’m familiar with the NSC222 and it sounds great, but a Moon 791 is something I can always do and for me (especially paired with the Moon 761 and which I already have), that takes out the Naim. In any case like many of my fellow-denizens here on this forum I’m going to go down a crazy rabbit hole or two and try out the optical rendu into an auralic vega g2.1 that I have lying around, and take it from there. 

Reporting back in case it’s helpful to others. On the streamer front: I used a Netgear unmanaged switch (GS108X) to start a fiber moat (I used Finisar FTLF8519P3BNL transceivers), ended it with a Sonore Optical Module and then ran a small ethernet patch to an Auralic Vega G2.1, then on to the Moon 761 power amp. It sounds beautiful. I wouldn’t say that it is a dramatic improvement on the setup I had already (Vega without the fiber moat) but it is a perceptible change in terms of clarity. I am not sure that I can push any more gains at the margin, but I am very pleased so far. Still debating whether to add a separate preamp, but I’m lazy and like the Roon volume control, which I will then lose.

PS. I did try going "full fiber" with an Optical Rendu as per @yyzsantabarbara's helpful suggestions, but that didn't do anything for me, most likely because the Vega's USB input isn't that great.

@debrajray Interesting that you could not hear any improvement with the fibre. In my tests with direct Ethernet into a DAC via RJ45 or a USB into the DAC from a computer were not performing at the same level as fibre. There was less clarity on top and other grunge. The computer use case was the worst if you were using a noisy computer like I have in my current setup (but with fibre).

I also use my RAAL SR1a headphones and those are like a surgical device with respect to letting you hear everything. A dirty source was dirty sound out on those phones.

I sold an excellent preamp last week, the Holo Audio Serene and now have only 2 preamps left. The Benchmark HPA4 (same as the LA4) and the Schitt Mjolnir v3. The Schitt is good and the HPA4 is incredible.

I put the HPA4 where the Serene used to be (in my best system) and I feel like I got a cleaner sound. Just love this preamp.

@yyzsantabarbara I am using fiber --- but up to an Optical Module and then heading back via very short ethernet into the (Vega) streamer, and it sounds distinctly better. What I am not doing is using an oRendu and bypassing the Vega streamer. But the lack of difference here can't be pinned down to a single factor, as I don't think the USB input on the Vega is that good.

But please don't sell me on the Benchmark LA4 :-), even though my original post does mention it. I do not want to control volume with an infrared remote and I don't think there is an alternative. (Short of digitally cutting back from the streamer.) Right?

@debrajray The new Schitt Kara preamp with the Forkbeard can control the volume on the preamp using an iPhone. This is not the digital volume of ROON but analog volume of the preamp. ROON does not need to be involved.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Made in USA

My Mjolnir v3 preamp does not support this. My Schitt Wotan amp has Forkbeard integration, and it is very useful for me. The amp does not have volume control but even then, I use the remote-control feature via my iPhone all the time.

I owned a KRELL Duo 300i integrated amp and it was ROON READY with the ability to change the volume via the ROON client. The volume on the integrated amp actually changed. This was great.

I find analog volume much better than digital volume. The Lumin X1 DAC with the digital Leedh implementation was the closest to the level of the LA4. It suffered a bit at low volume, though it was an issue of linear progression of the loudness and not the sound quality as with most digital volume.

Hi @yyzsantabarbara, because the Vega G2 series has an analog preamp stage, Roon volume control happens on the analog side and doesn't reduce digital bit-depth. In fact that's the main reason I am unwilling to bypass the preamp stage of the Vega or give the Vega up entirely and replace the entire chain --- which takes me back to my original post. I'll look into your suggestion; thanks.