What I want to know is if the left channel of my dac sounds the same as the right channel? Do two copies of the same design always sound the same? If your hearing is acute enough to be bothered by differences between samples of the same design you're going to have a really rough time, or a really fun time if you like buying 10 copies of the same dac and listening for the best one. It may be that cheap dacs with more variation between units have the possibility of striking up magic from time to time. If you've got the ears, money and time, then go hunt for the magical sounding cheap dac! If there's a real science to separating good sounding dacs from bad ones, that would be interesting to know. So far I haven't heard of any good explanations for why expensive dacs should sound better, other than by adding distortion that some people like.
The sound quality from DACs - is it all the same?
I've been talking to my cousin brother about sound quality. He is a self-proclaimed expert audiophile. He says that Audio Science Review has all of the answers I will need regarding audio products.
In particular, he says an inexpensive DAC from any Chinese company will do better than the expensive stuff. He says fancy audio gear is a waste of money because the data is already bit-perfect. All DAC chips sound the same. Am I being mislead?
He also said that any DAC over $400 is a waste of money. Convincing marketing is at play here, he says.
He currently owns a Topping L30 headphone amplifier and D30 Pro DAC. He uses Sennheiser HD 569 headphones to listen to music. I'm not sure what to think of them. I will report my findings after listening one day! (likely soon, once I get some free time)
- Jack
Is your cousin @jasonbourne52?
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OP:
Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is using 30 year old measurements which are rarely compared to listener experience as the way to gauge the performance of a system. That's not science. Science is investigation and research. This is just quality assurance techniques. The best way I can describe it is this. Yes, you can measure the firmness and rigidity of a car seat using pressure sensors. It doesn't tell you if you'll want to sit in it for 4 hours unless some one actually goes the extra step of figuring out what matters. That latter step is missing with ASR's entire raison d'etre. |
What is said in this video is probably relatively true...It is a question of perspective...All is not black or white here... But the audio system of Jay is at the other end of 99 % of all users here on the price scale ... For most of us ordinary mortal, like me, the most important factor is the room acoustic...Not an upgrade of my good low cost dac to a few thousand dollars new one which will be "trash" anyway compared to a 100,000 dollars one like in this video which only prove by the experience of this reviewer the impactful importance of a dac over costly speakers and very costly amplifiers in a minimally treated and non acoustically controlled room...I dont contest that...
But i would be curious to try this dac in a nude room or minimally treated one and compared it to his working in a completely controlled room... 😁😊 People forget ALWAYS the room impact, we listen the speakers/room quatitave relation AT THE END ...Even if the source is in some case the more important component...It is not true in ALL CASE at all...You cannot pair a 100,000 bucks dac with my very good speakers for sure but which are at another level of design than Jay 100,000 bucks speakers... I am sure the difference will be staggering if we use this dac in an ordinary room and compare it to a controlled one...... Then i am not convinced by Jay about his claim that DAC is the most important factor, it is not generally true for all audio system, even if i dont doubt his complete honesty and the relative truth of what he say in the context of top high end product... In the case of products generally sold for most audiophiles, on a way lower porice scale, the most important upgrade will not be a dac but a new room... Acoustic never lie and cannot be bought...it only can be painfully installed...At no cost in my case, but with great time cost for the tuning...Most people feel that they not able or not in the situation to tune a room for sure...This fact dont change the truth of what i claim about acoustic...No more than my claim could destroy the personal experience of Jay in ultra high end costly design journey...
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“I’ve been talking to my cousin brother about sound quality. He is a self-proclaimed expert audiophile. He says that Audio Science Review has all of the answers I will need regarding audio products.” Is your cousin brother by any chance @djones51 😜 In any case, don’t waste your money on $400 Chinese DAC; instead buy a DSP driven powered speakers and kick back for SOTA experience! |
I think you are right... But i will say half of the people here not "most"... 😁😊 It is the reason why "tool measuring fetichists " are the most deluded of the two groups...Some of the "gear brand name tasting fetichist" also try to pick gear with minimal specs sound numbers to begin with for sure... My best to you....
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That's not really accurate. At ASR, they can't be bothered to listen to some of the devices they test. For them, measurement alone is sufficient. On the other hand, I don't think most users here reject measurements carte blanche. Rather, I think most here know that measurements have their place and most understand how to interpret the essential measurements. |
Sorry but price is not related in a direct way to S.Q. Acoustic science is... A minimalistic low cost design in dac can be very good... Mine is... Assuming that brand name of gear and price determine sound quality is not better than measuring piece of gear without listening them... In the 2 cases the most important factor is forgotten : acoustic methods...I prefer science to fetichisms of the gear brand name or of the measuring tools... By the way even if my gear is low cost my hearing must be good because i tuned with success my room acoustic by ears only, adjusting more than one hundred Helmholtz devices by listenings to create a timbre experience, imaging, soundscape, dynamic, clear bass experience at the Schroeder dimension and LV/ASW right ratio...Is it not a listening at "very high level" on my side ? if you think the opposite try to tune your room by your ears alone you will understand what it ask for... 😁😊 And you will never attribute to your ears the quality borrowed from a costly audio system brand name reputation ...No acoustician or musician ever concluded they have good ears because their instrument and devices are costly... This is ridiculous at best... Some people here with 500,000 audio system did not even know what a timbre perception is, they listen to the gear sound ALONE not to the speakers +room+ timbre sound, not knowing HOW to tune them AT WILL anyway ...They boast about their gear...And they attack some others who boast about their measuring tools... This is ridiculous battlefield between two erroneous positions... Acoustic/psycho-acoustic CORRELATE in an ongoing process subjective and objective measures and devices which are more sometimes than only mere tool but essential parts of the room like an Helmholtz resonator is for example... I prefer to promote acoustic training and experiments...And low cost well chosen piece of gear instead of non sense fetichism ... My perspective is listening experiments through a room...
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The inbreeding has created so much retardation that they don't even understand that to run a commercial website you need sponsors and patrons. Honestly who will advertise there? Fluke multi-meters? I just spent two grand on fuses, yes fuses but Ted from SR pops in now and then and tells me I made a great decision. Yeah fuses are different just ask ASR. |
Audio science review is the antithesis of this forum. There people think the only thing that matters is the numbers--if it has the lowest THD and noise floor, it must sound best. Here people think all that matters is what they hear, even if their claims violate the laws of physics. The answer is somewhere in between. I think the DAC is very important to the sound in a modern digital system...I’ve sometimes said it is the most important component, but that is easy to say when you have the amp all dialed in...I will say that the DAC is the most expensive component in my system. His claim about a $400 DAC shows that he isn't listening at a very high level. Jerry |
If that were the case one of the most prolific DACs would have never gone to market, The Border Patrol SE. On paper (measurements) it is awful. Listen to one and you will love the sound. The folks at ASR are sheep. Not saying measurements are not part of the equation they absolutely are in mechanical engineering and it is how we validate. In audio not so much. |
The sound of all Dac differ like differ any system sound where we introduce new piece of gear... Easy to hear... The sound we hear is not a bunch of frequencies spectrum added one to another...Sorry psycho-acoustic is not simple matter... We also hear change in phase... And we hear through the timbre experience some information related to the acoustic condition of the recording theater or room...And this recorded timbre will changed accordingly in our own room acoustic... Timbre perception change from the musician who play the instrument to any location near him around him and far from him and the room where he play will affect the timbre also...Timbre is not reducible to an objective resonant sound source you must add the environment information in the spectral envelope and in the time envelope and you must add the specific structure of our own ears/brain... I am happy then with a dac which have a minimalistic design and without oversampling...Because say Christophe Mariac the dac designer : «Let me give you a simple example: it is generally assumed we hear the spectrum of sounds, but can’t hear the phase. I prefer a natural lived timbre sound to my ears instead of a " microscope" with unnatural aura of detailed " planktons "... In particular in low cost audio system it is the better why? there exist probably not oversamplig good dac at cheap price... Then i am more than happy with my dac because in my acoustically controlled room i cannot attribute to it any defect at all... The last time Christophe Mariac sell it new his price was near 500 bucks... I pay it 20 bucks new on Ebay... And i forgot about any other dac... "microscope" at high cost have no appeal to me, and other NOS design will cost pricier and i doubt that they can beat it really... His minimalistic design and low noise is remarkable... I connect it to a non linear power supply then the internal battery are always charged and powered it very well for 6 years now 12 hours a day...I listen music even sometimes reading... 😁😊 it is the greatest luck in all my audio purchase and it is irreplaceable at this S.Q./price ratio...More a deal than my Mission Cyrus speakers at 50 bucks and my marvellous Sansui Au 7700 at 150 bucks... I consider my system in my acoustically controlled and treated room Hi-FI or not too far from anything i listen to in my life... because of acoustic method not because t my gear is well chosen, any other well chosen piece of gear would have been good IF THE ACOUSTIC OF THE ROOM IS TAILORED FOR THE GEAR...
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ASR seems like an interesting place to learn from. Don't audio companies use measurements to test their equipment? For example, frequency response and other important things? I may not know that much about audio, but that doesn't make me a troll. I'm just an average guy looking for some guidance into greater enjoyment with this hobby. |
I wish that site would change it's name to something other than "science" because it isn't science, it is, at best, quality assurance. My suggestion to the OP is that some people absolutely can't hear a difference, if that's you, be glad and go get something inexpensive that looks good and has a nice remote. If you can hear a difference, get something that makes you happy. |
@hilde45 +1, Inbreeding severely damages your auditory capabilities. Just ask anyone on ASR. |
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I’m not sure about whether you are being strictly mislead, but perhaps your cousin brother is generailzing in a manner that is disingenuous. There are only specific instances of what he says that are representative of the current state of things. This is confirmed by his own proclamation that he is an expert audiophile who claims that ASR has all the answers. There is a flaw - an internal inconsistency - in that statement. Do your own research and avoid folk who generalize, however well-meaning. |
No urge to debate anyone, but in any event, that bit perfect data has to be translated into analog. That's what "DAC" stands for -- "Digital to Analog Converter." My two cents is its the analog section that has the biggest impact on sound. Even on the DAC side, there are differences on the digital side between delta-sigma DACs and multibit/R2R/ladder DACs. And then there is the question of EMF generation and suppression and so on. So, yes, there will always be lots of things to discuss. Your "cousin brother" should just be happy that he has a system that makes him happy. Shouldn't that be everyone's goal? |
