? What the____ brought that on. Sound is not a mystery. The physics of sound are well documented. There is little if any mysticism in music. It is an extraordinarily structured construct. The only mystery I know of is why humans are universally fond of music. What in nature made it so advantageous for us to like music?
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Sound stay a mystery in spite of all derived technology we enjoy... No universal hearing theory exist for the time being... And there is many deep problems bordering on mysteries with sound... And we are as a body a mass of vibrating waters and electrical vibrations across a huge range of Hertz scale ...
The real mystery is not our love for music by the way ... Not surprizing at all that we love music , and the question what is it in nature that makes us so much loving music is simple : our own resonating body on all scale of vibrations with the cosmos ... Our brain is an orchestra but the maestro and composer is not in it ...We learn how to learn by synchronizing our internal rythms with the cosmos rythms ...this process is described well by a genius in India working with Penrose and Hameroff but developing his own ideas, read this dude books : It is the more accessible one of the three main books in pure mathematics i know about this mystery : https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2638015/edit The mathematical basis of our self learning process is known already... It is the distribution of prime numbers whih is the GROUND but this distribution is a deep mystery the deepest one in mathematics and related also to music ( see Alain Connes the music of shapes on youtube ) ..
By the way Bolong is right ...😊 And this youtube video is exactly right on all counts...I already seen it and put it in one of my thread so true it was..😊
By the way all surhuman great mathematicians in history , not our regular professors, are spiritual and mystic ... It is easy to demonstrate ... But it will take a long post ... Mathematics is more musical than logical... In fact there is no logic in mathematic... We use logic as a means to taught mathematic in a linear way and in function of our actual state of knowledge ... Pure beauty and pure truth is musical not logical, it exceed logic as the ocean poured in a glass of water overflow all bounds of the glass ...
As said the great mathematician Alexander Grothendieck, also a poet : «Nothing really important can be proved ». this sentence this maxim was aimed not only for mathematics but for anything in life ... The second greatest mathematician of the century perhaps , Cantor , wrote that « the essence of Mathematics is pure freedom and creativity ».. Now take these two sentences together to understand what they means together... They means that in mathematics as in life some deep problem cannot be solved in the past paradigm, as the parallell postulate , or the question of the actual infinite, for example , we must not trying to solve the problem with a demonstration and a proof which are not possible anyway in these cases; in the opposite we must create first a new world to SHOW the hidden value of these problems as Cantor did , as Lobatchevsky or Bolyai did ... It is no more a mere proof mechanism in a known world first but the heart feeling and the mind feeling about a new unknown world , a new conceptual scheme living as an organism in the spirit of any genius; then first and last more a perception than a logical proof ... Then even in mathematics the feeling and the concepts play together , as in acoustic, and as in music understanding, or as in any human endeavor ... Pure reactive subjective romantism or pure objective materialism are blind alleys, the spiritual takes over the body and the heart together ... As illustrated by Goethe or William Blake in very different ways ...
We cannot prove God exist or anything of real value as love or Beauty, or musical or the depest mathematical truth; but we can create a world for us together where these mysteries can and will be perceived ...
«Any fact need a world where it is possible for it to exist»-- Anonymus Sherlock Holmes reader 🕵️♀️ «All trees dont grow above sand»-- Anonymus botanist |
Mijostyn you are so desperately trivial and predictive...😁 Nevermind our opinions it is better to motivate people than always claiming especially when it is false : "it is only that" ...
The advantage is social and spiritual... As social animal we must decode speech and the associated "music" to synchonize individuals and the group...Human produces sound and music not only with the mouth but with all the body and dancing and playing members of the body physical and social ... And Spiritually it is advantageous to like music and learn it because it is a deep way to know ourself as individual and member of a group and finally part of humanity and at the end participant of the cosmos ...
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When Plato had written : "Let no one ignorant of geometry enter"He was remembering Pythagoras...And his ideas about music and numbers or ratio... There is a deep reason for that... So deep , it makes more sense today than in the days of Plato... For the founder of non commutative geometry, Alain Connes , geometry and even numbers are music... For the first designer of artificial brain and consciousness in India working in Japan in his book "nanobrain" it is also such ... Science taught us to pounder and perceive mysteries as indicated Goethe in his reflections about his method in science , not to reduce them as philistines do , to trivial questions with trivial solutions by saying that mysteries are mere already answered and settled questions ... What this philistines forget is learning how to perceive phenomena anew and in a new light ... |
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You are right... I reacted too seriously , my only excuse is that this question of the OP matter to me a lot ... I will then ask for forgiveness to mazian and completely apologize... Sometimes i behave like an idiot and felt that i am always dead serious in front of students ...I am ashamed to confess that it is not the first time my ego win over me...😁 I wish mazian will understand my stupidity and go over my limitations.. Humor make life better especially here and sometimes i takes question way too seriously ... By the way i am ashamed of my post now but i will let it here as a reminder ... Anyway i wish him the best Christmas possible and a good health to him and his family ... And for sure thanks to you
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Every sound has a form associated with it and vice versa. In some eastern traditions and even in the native traditions of the Americas, sound was intricately used as ’one of the many’ tools to evolve this human casing in consciousness/evolve it to its ultimate potential. What is this ultimate potential? Well, some of you good ol’ boys know Jesus. Jesus was born here as a regular ol’ carpenter, y’know? But, "something" happened to him and he blossomed, became "God like"..."God himself". The Buddha...he was a born a regular ol’ spoilt prince...but then, something happened to him and he became "God like"..."God himself". These 2 are the more "popular" ones. But, there have been many and some are still currently alive in the world...the "God like" ones. They are not gonna come out and tell you anything/become "popular"....because you know/remember what y’all did to Jesus? Anyways, such potential exists within all of you and can remain dormant for many a wasted lifetime, unexplored. Some of you are probably nearing closer to the end of your limited lifespans, i.e., time & energy are limited resources. For some, life needs to give you many many beatings before you come to your senses, possibly align yourselves that way. Anyways....if not in this one....better luck next time ( exploring higher possibilities)....or the one after....or the one after....or the one after...or the one after...
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Well said @mahgister and you describe our endless ignorance well. However, just because we are ignorant ("I know that I dont know"...) does not mean we should not or cannot try to improve
and thanks @bolong for sharing. |
I like to think of music as the universal language. It's the common thread running through all people and cultures since before recorded history. Each may have its unique style, but through the centuries and its evolution, music's message has never changed; music speaks what words cannot. Or you know, what @jpwarren58 said.
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Your right and we all think so... We dont know all what music can deliver , it seems without limits; We know why we love music , it is because there is nothing to hide in music , no lies, but all is so deep we cannot fathom it ... Music is life itself ...A complete mystery which walk inside us and beside us...
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I've only known one person who didn't like music....and since he's passed, I'll never know Why.... As for self, I'd go noisily insane if I didn't in some alternate fashion...;) I make up for it by listening to L7 doing "Let's Pretend That We're Dead" LOUD ...because I'm not....quite yet, anyway...*G* .....and give thanks for subs.... "Dance, Kali, dance...." May y'alls' holidays be full of joyful music, of whatever nature it is.... @mahgister ....you just keep typing, good sir...👌👍
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I read many books in my life... The three among the most impressive in science ( at least near 200 illuminating out of the ordinary books in all fields ) One is a book about Egyptology, one about linguistic , the third is about Fractal geometry in french which was the first edition , (1975) ex equo with Cantor theory i studied, but in the last decades i stumbled in 2020 on the book "Nanobrain" by Anirban Bandyopadhyay... Read this 3 parts idea from the first paragraph of the tweeter blog and try to read his tweeter as an introduction... It is not light reading and he wrote English no better than me sorry...😁 But a genius he is which is not so frequent encounter....Dont judge him by his english syntax...He is not an A.I. engineer as most who are working for corporations, he is a pure scientist, all his idea are new from the ground up in artificial consciousness research (not artificial intelligence) And all his ideas are applied technology in the making (as example his fine analysis of microtubules "music" ) ...I did not encountered such a genius for sometime now ( i am old and more stupid than i was in the past then we discover less 😁 )... His general philosophy is completely "musical" and arithmetical metaphorically speaking ... By the way i lost my taste to read young; at 20 i discovered geniuses,( in mathematics, philosophy and mysticism from all cultures) and i never read again by only mere leisure pleasure to kill time but mostly in ectasy with new ideas and new intuition in all fields... I was more interested by someone ideas than by the field he work in ...Even phonology/phonetic can be captivating matter trust me😊... Now if you read him you will discover that the cosmos is musical and even you will discover that mathematics is music more than the reverse more accepted common place fact about music being mathematical ... To be clear mathematics is musical not logical....Sorry for Bertrand Russell here , welcome Kurt Godel ... By the way forget mathematics as only mere formulas, it is contemplation of the source on the mind level... Higher it is mystical experience as such ... https://twitter.com/anirbanbandyo?lang=en
As mathematics , music is indeed a mystery; one is aimed at our mind from the universal heart, the other is aimed at our heart from the universal mind ...
«Nothing really impoertant can be proven»-- Alexander Grothendieck «Logic is useful, not meaningful»--Anonymus depressive logician «We are logical»-- Bill Gates |
For sure Bach is the greatest musical experience in my life with Indian classical music and african talking drums ...
«If its turn and roll it is musical but it is better if its speak »-- Anonymus Yoruba drummer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oQJZ2TEVI&t=117s «Drums are talking geometry»--Anonymus mathematician
Alain Connes conference : "the music of shapes" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52ZAPrRbqE&t=527s
Takes a look at Ginger Baker learning drums ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6NaxgmWOp8
now check Cymatics: |
Music and art can’t be reduced to digits on a page. The page that has a bunch of figures and data on it is only tangentially related to music and art as a whole. mys·ti·cism 1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender. I don’t know what to make of the ideas expressed in the OP, and how a strong argument can be made that “the mystery of sound is mysticism,” but I do know that acknowledging the experience music provides without acknowledging the intangible, immeasurable things, and/or ensconcing oneself into a rigid bubble of “science / data, and nothing else,” is folly.
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Great post! thanks ... I wish you the best for Christmas and this new year... 🎄
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@jpwarren58 oh my God….came very close to pissing myself….best Audiogon post of 2023 and thinking it will be difficult to top in 2024… ” working on mysteries without any clues, working on night moves “…. iF Bob Seger had only been old enough to buy beer…. |
As @mahgister asserts "... it can be much more..." The mode of perceiving the "more" could be described as mystical. Merry Christmas!
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Merry christmas especially to those who are alone and with only one loved person beside them or at distance or sick ... We grow old and more isolated ... Music can be then more than a leisure , a way to remember the past and the eternity ... I like this image a lot because the joy is always measured only by the infinite and make itself felt as a finite soul in front of us ... A dog , a bird or a tree or a children ...Any finite object remembering his source ... This is a mystery if there is one and the ground of mathematics itself according to Georg Cantor and the ground of love mystery... We cannot see more than the way we love .... Then seeing anything and saying : "this is only that", if it is not lying to ourself , it is staying blind ...
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Sorry mijostyn but you are often in reverse from reality... Even in audio ... 😁
You confuse mystery with enigmas or riddles...Mystery are sacred meanings of what appear which wait for us and can transform ourself and not games to be win over and used and sold (technology) ... Wisdom is not mere knowledge, knowledge is not mere science, science is not mere technology ... We faced mysteries when we dont bother with limited ready made answers because we become children again or keep our childhood in us as a treasure and as the highest geniuses did we then are able to see things always for the first time and without the veil of conditioning ... We faced mysteries which are only evidence of deeper layers manifested in plain sight but unobserved because most adults are no more children nor geniuses ... Read the physicist Bortoft analysis of Goethe method to understand ... And remember Alexander Grothendieck one of the greatest mathematician since Riemann Gauss and Ramanujan who described part of his geometric algebraic intuition "children drawings" because in his word "what is really important never can be proven " but can be guessed and used by intuition and work through an illuminated by the creative imagination metamorphosed reason ... Now try to relate Goethe method in morphology in plant and mammals and Grothendieck "dessins d’enfants" and you will catch what is a mystery, an infinite given in plain sight ... https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/child%27s+drawing
because he was a mystic as was Cantor and spiritual as was Goethe he draw his christmas tree of knowledge ... Grothendieck created Modern algebraic geometry singlehandly ...he is the master of Shinichi Mochizuki probably the greatest continuation of his work but in a com-plete new direction ...
From here : http://www.neverendingbooks.org/category/imath/page/2
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But here you are right ...😊 Love and cooperation are the basis of society and even of nature... Darwin has not see all there is to see ... Pitirim Sorokin book is now forgotten but it was the greatest sociologist of his time and wrote about cooperation all along history and about the 5 dimensions of love in his mammoth book "Social and cultural dynamics" ... ..
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"The Mystery Of Sound Is Mysticism" The mystery of sound has been around since well, the big bang. It was only recently in the scheme of time that man took sound and made sonic drills. There’s no way that there are no more mysteries of sound to be found. That is pure absolutist thinking. When I was 35, many years ago I volunteered for a blood pressure study at Morehouse College in Atlanta, GA. They wanted to scientifically measure the effects of ’Transcendental Meditation’ on blood pressure. We had a doctor of medicine who had studied under Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who brought ’Transcendental Meditation’ to the western world. We practiced focus, breathing, stretching and other relaxation techniques to learn how to settle the mind/thoughts. After about 1 week we all got our ’Mantra’, which is a sound that was given to us in audible form. We were then told to repeat our mantra’s to ourselves in thought only - while employing the relaxation techniques. These techniques were/are apart of the Indian culture for thousands of years and yet it took thousands of years to apply it scientifically to the western world. Oh boy did it lower our blood pressure and more importantly without any meds! I still use this un-audible form of meditation to this day. If there are no Mysteries Of Sound (in Mysticism) would someone please explain to me how an UN-AUDIBLE SOUND can have such a dramatic and profound affect on our entire human physiology and psychology? @mahgister, the world would so boring if we only had elitist scientist as a knowledge base. Thank GOD we have the Magi to give ancient writings of life’s wonders and gives us older folks the bright light of wonderment that we had when we were just a child!
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Obviously, my point that music, as a thing in human experience, is only partially explained when it is jotted down on a staff, still stands. Music is not a science. @mahgister Happy Holidays to you! Happy Holidays to all!! |
Obviously you’ve never listened to recording artists Gábor Szabó, Lonnie Liston Smith, Sun Ra, Earth Wind and Fire and so many others from the ’Age of Aquarius’. Heck even George Clinton had a Mothership! |
Great posts tyray...+2 We cannot prove anything important if we cannot create the world where what is important can be perceived to begin with ... Philistine dont perceive mystery nor beauty, they trivialize it ... Or they reduce any myth to a comic book status... They dont understand myths nor creative imagination and they reduce mathematical concepts to mere computations ... Their idea of thinking resemble ideas of an accountant ... By the way i love sun Ra,Lonnie Smith and Gabor Szabo... And mijostyn forgot that the huge choral works of many centuries before Bach is completely mystical in his music ...It is impossible to listen to Josquin Des Prez or Hildegard of Bingen without entering meditative state and even ectasy... Great post Tylermunns +2
Confusing meanings with letters , Intelligence with A. I. , science and knowledge with technology is the symptom of our dying materialism era, culminating in transhumanism hubris... |
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Woodstock - WE ARE STARDUST
Well I came across a child of God, he was walking along the road And I asked him tell where are you going, this he told me: Well, I’m going down to Yasgur’s farm, going to join in a rock and roll band. Got to get back to the land, set my soul free. We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion year old carbon, And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
Well, then can I walk beside you? I have come to lose the smog. And I feel like I’m a cog in something turning. And maybe it’s the time of year, yes, and maybe it’s the time of man. And I don’t know who I am but life is for learning. We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion year old carbon, And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
By the time we got to Woodstock, we were half a million strong, And everywhere there was song and celebration. And I dreamed I saw the bombers jet planes riding shotgun in the sky, Turning into butterflies above our nation. We are stardust, we are golden, we caught in the devil’s bargain, And we got to get ourselves back to the garden. Writer(s): Joni Mitchell, Stormy Forest Masters Copyright: Crazy Crow Music |
The greatest American poets are Walt Whitman and Emily Dickinson ..
“Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the soul - and sings the tune without the words - and never stops at all.” E. DickinsonThis world is not conclusion. A sequel stands beyond Invisible, as music But positive, as sound. E. Dickinson
«All music is what awakes from you when you are reminded by the instruments, It is not the violins and the cornets, it is not the oboe nor the beating drums, It is nearer and farther than they.» Walt Whitman
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@mahgister my dear friend, you are confusing Dr. Lonnie Smith who is one heck of a jazz artist with Lonnie Liston Smith.
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My ego is way too big to humble himself most of the times ...And only truth humble me, not daily trivial matter as my ignorance ... 😊 I really do not know him ... I dont know much in jazz and in soul and blues etc ... I will listen to him...But singing poetry in english is difficult to understand for me ...I used to read simplistic syntax with no metaphors...Philosophical or scientific english... All thinkers dont write english as the spanish Santayana ...😁 I love Bob Dylan but i miss half of his tropes and allusions ...I read Whitman and Dickinson in bilingual text ... 😁 I wish you a very lucky year ... It is coming , christmas will pass in 28 minutes here ...
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