Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend.
Or to put it another way - everyone both fears and longs for the levee to break.
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It's the utter lack of mysticism that makes music special for me. It's real, it's right there, and unlike religious nonsense that leads to separations of cultures and endless violence, it does actual good. To say that society is based on love and understanding is to ignore what is actually happened over the ages...society is based mostly on greed, ignorance, exploitation of the weak, and polka music (although I kinda like Klezmer after working with the Klezmatics once). Keep your pseudo mystical baloney to yourself and give me some jazz. I mean some jazz, man. |
Perhaps you must add to your lexicon a new concept based on consciousness experience , "spirituality", and keep the word "religions" for what it is : a social cultural phenomenon ... Lao Tse is not taoism , Buddha is not buddhism, Jesus is not Christianity , A map is not a territory...Especially highly distorted maps...
Perceiving what phenomenon are really behind mere appearance is not being deluded...It is confusing some appearances with reality that is a sign of delusion ... See out and farthest than you nose instead of repeating common place facts as deep truths ... We cannot perceive a new reality if we had not prepared ourself to perceive it first ..And if the times is not the right time ... It is call a "concept" ... Which concept is not only a mere abstraction but also a concrete new perspective and experience ... John Flamsteed do not perceive "a planet" called Uranus when he observed it long time before Herschel guess why ?
And dont repeat what Bill Gates and Klaus Schwab or some controller of the same ilk put in your brain for the sake of controlling all humans and abolishing freedom and all cultures because humans are all in there supposedly about fanaticism, greed , ignorance and exploitation .. Do you catch your own contradictions ? To help you to understand cooperative communication role in Nature over the gross competitive interpretation of some Darwinist ideology about the fight for the fittest , i will suggest to read an article in the field of artificial intelligence about the way to design ecosystems of intelligence as put it by Karl Friston...Why ? Because Nature work at least as an intelligent cooperative ecological social entity not as a materialistic Victorian blind and deaf killing machine machine ... https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.01354.pdf Now if you read 3,000 pages book in his resumed version of 700 pages about the rise and fall of societies and the role of cooperation which is more powerful than the survival fight as such, by Pitirim Sorokin, you will have a glimpse of what we spoke about all which escape your narrow window ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitirim_Sorokin
And for music, i dont think you know much , because you seem to think of music as mere pleasant sound for you ... It is not...Music is through sounds but is not sounds pleasant to you ...It is not your hit parade ... I will not go further...Too much space will be needed ...Suffice to say that all music of any kind is an emotional/body/mind/spirit experience ...All music resonate much at some level in yourself, and then the fact that you had never listen to a music that light the upper lantern of your mind "on" does not mean that this level does not exist ... Feeling pleasure in hearing some music is not all there is about music ...Some music is a bit more than just a leisure goal distributed by corporations to make them happy when they go shopping ... Try the "art of the fugue" and think about what this work means ...Try the same after that with an Indian raga.... Then buy traditional Yoruba speaking drums and think about it ...After all that explain to yourself and others what is music and the relation between these three styles of consciousness experience and how they reflect in sound something with is not sound and is called a consciousness perceiving experience of different qualities and states...
«You cannot light a lampost by lighting it with another lantern»--Groucho Marx 🤓 «I dont share my light»--Anonymus lampost |
Mystery Something that is difficult or impossible to explain. backwards. All I did was indicate that music can be subjugated to notation. I never said it was not an art. Just like certain sports the best music comes from people with special musical brains Like Stevie Wonder or Ludwig Van. There are very few people capable of driving an F1 car at 200 MPH. what can not be easily notated is the feeling behind the music which is what makes certain musicians better, None of this is difficult to explain, it is not a mystery or mysterious in any way. It certainly is wonderful. |
I don’t wish to be coarse, but the use of the word “mysticism” in this conversation is somewhat unfortunate in my opinion. In this conversation, I don’t see a necessity in rigid tribalism.
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@stuartk, Thank you for giving @mahgister his props! There was no need at all to delete your post: +1 That is/was a blessing to @mahgister! You did/wrote nothing wrong! Thank you! |
Replacing mysteries by the word wonderful will not replace what i mean by "mystery" ... It is neither esthetically beautiful neither simple amazement; it is entering in Nature intimacy and discovering something ... Read the physicist Henri Bortoft books about Goethe method , which is Leonardo Da Vinci Method as well ...I will say more but i lack the space here ...
Mysteries are there not to be explained by words or experiments, they cannot; they are there as something to be perceived as "meanings" and they then transform the observer stance because they cannot be perceived passively by an external observer but ask to be participate ... This method of observation make Goethe able to found the physiology of colors out of the Newtonian corpuscules optics metaphysics.. Read Goethe " there is no theory behind the phenomenon , the phenomenon is the theory"... This dude dare to contradict Newton alone and win his point ...Perhaps you may learn something from him ...His I.Q. is not less than Newton...😁 He is a Natural scientist on par with Darwin, he died with one of the biggest natural specimen collections...He investigate mammals and plant morphology and found a new morphological approach...He is the greatest writer of Germany on par with Shakespeare...And understood as well as William Blake the materialism dead end in which we live today replaced by the new religion : transhumanism ...He understood it so well that it is him with his Faust gave to us the only adjective describing the transhumanist hubris at6 his roots : Faustian ... Accountant philosophy is not my philosophy, in my philosophy there is mysteries... By the way the greatest Romanian philosopher Lucian Blaga which is also the greatest Romanian writer , created a philosophy completely grounded in the concept of Mystery versus simplistic theorizing ...He is very deep, it is a pity there is no translation in english...
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You are right and it is my point to quoting Goethe and mathematicians... I spoke about the spirituality not about religions, and i speak about meanings , not about mystical or materialistic ideologies ... In music i am interested by psychoacoustics and the way sound affect consciousness level of everyone monk or not ... But materialism is an ideological deception as much as religions... Anyway i dont refuse the word mysticism because in any religions the mystics are the only interesting person, they perceive before speaking ... One of the best book i read in my life was an unknown writer Alexis-Preyre, he wrote a book called in " le doute liberateur" or The freeing act of doubt" which explain the analogy of method between scepticism and the apophantic and cataphatic method of the mystics... Mystics doubt in a methodological way it is why they are not loved by Institution... Francesco D'assissi miss to be put on stake by few inches ...Mystics are potential heretics because of their real experiences and they ressemble each other , nevermind the religions .. |
I will translate the title thread to make it acceptable as a concept for some : The experience of sound impact the body-heart/mind-brain/soul-spirit different levels and layers of experience and meanings ... Calling it "mysticism" and a "mystery" is only short-hand writing for a deeper matter than imagine trivial mind ... But many are so estranged to meaningful experiences varieties they reduce all of them to only one level ... The accountants worker and consumers linear levels of thinking and understanding ... But i dont think that Bach offering his works to God as did Bruckner, Liszt or Hildegard of Bingen , or Ustad ali Akbar Khan or Sharam Nazeri think as American consumers customers or like accountants creating their musical mysteries for initiate mind or mind looking for "truth" certainly not as consumers background music so "wonderful" mijostyn and i agree it could be... ... 😁 As music cannot be really written, mathematics cannot be reduced to writing sums of computations... Mysteries are everywhere if we are able to think instead of repeating common -place opinions inspired by the materialism and nominalism popular in Anglo Saxon world especially ... Read the greatest American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce ...A polymath genius who investigate what is "meaning" and despise the nominalist habit of the mind around him ...He created a new science singlehandly ...
«We cannot begin with complete doubt» C. S. Peirce
“I hear you say: ‘All that is not /fact/ : it is poetry’. Nonsense! Bad poetry is false, I grant; but nothing is truer than true poetry. And let me tell the scientific men that the artists are much finer and more accurate observers than they are, except of the special minutiae that the scientific man is looking for.”
― “Few persons care to study logic, because everybody conceives himself to be proficient enough in the art of reasoning already. But I observe that this satisfaction is limited to one’s own ratiocination, and does not extend to that of other men.”
― The Fixation of Belief “Notwithstanding all that has been discovered since Newton’s time, his saying that we are little children picking up pretty pebbles on the beach while the whole ocean lies before us unexplored remains substantially as true as ever, and will do so though we shovel up the pebbles by steam shovels and carry them off in carloads.”
― Collected Papers “Are you sure twice two are four? Not at all. A certain percentage of the human race are insane and subject to illusions. It may be you are one of them, and that your idea that twice two is four is a lunatic notion, and your seeming recollection that other people think so, the baseless fabric of a vision.”
― “Some persons fancy that bias and counter-bias are favorable to the extraction of truth–that hot and partisan debate is the way to investigate. This is the theory of our atrocious legal procedure. But Logic puts its heel upon this suggestion. It irrefragably demonstrates that knowledge can only be furthered by the real desire for it, and that the methods of obstinacy, of authority and every mode of trying to reach a foregone conclusion, are absolutely of no value. These things are proved. The reader is at liberty to think so or not as long as the proof is not set forth, or as long as he refrains from examining it. Just so, he can preserve, if he likes, his freedom of opinion in regard to the propositions of geometry; only, in that case, if he takes a fancy to read Euclid, he will do well to skip whatever he finds with A, B, C, etc., for, if he reads attentively that disagreeable matter, the freedom of his opinion about geometry may unhappily be lost forever.”
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«Musical ideas or feelings are not mere sound, and yet are nothing apart from sound; they may be described in emotive language ("sad" and the like) and yet are never adequately so described. Description - a logical interpretant, dependent on collateral observation by which the feelings heard are compared with human emotions conventionally designated - lacks the specificity, complexity, and nuance of the musical ideas described. As Mendelssohn said, "It is not that music is too vague for words; it is too precise for words." That is why the proper or complete interpretant of music is emotional, not logical. But that emotional interpretant is not one’s ordinary feeling, for example, of sadness; it is the same complex of feeling as that embodied in the piece of music heard. » (Short : Peirce theory of signs 2007: 204).
Susanne Langer (1953: 147). "The first principle in musical hearing is not, as many people assume, the ability to distinguish the separate elements in a composition and recognize its devices, but to experience the primary illusion [i.e., the movement of the music through the 'virtual time' constructed by the work] , to feel the consistent movement and recognize at once the commanding form which makes this piece an inviolable whole"
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In written speech we can say anything and contradict ourself and negate what has been said ... We can begin to wrote again forgetting what we just corrected ...We are free in a way we are not in musical playing expression and in oral speech ... Nobody can lie in musical immediate playing expression because nothing can be retracted as in oral expression before writings was invented ...In music playing as in oral speech we live in time with time through timing ..."Lying" can be detected in oral speech and in music by some asynchronization in the expressing body ... In the written music or speech we live out of time without time ... This is why orality as music playing implicate the whole living body... Written music and written speech do not implicate the whole body they are social institution in a way music playing and oral speech are not ...Writing miss the mystery of time and timing which is the body itself, the body being a rythms of interlocked spirals at all scales from the microtubules to the body arms...... |
I often find myself in agreement with @mahgister and am not shy about expressing it. I deleted my initial post because I wanted to say more on this thread topic but upon further consideration, opted not to, simply because is so subjective. If "person A" regards mysticism as frivolous ianity, at best and "person B" has had vivid experiences that fall within the realm of "the mystical", where is there space for dialog? I don’t see it. "person A" is liable to view "person B" as anything from overly-imaginative to deranged and there is nothing "person B" can do to change this. It’s for this reason that I thought it best not to comment further, despite the fact that this is a topic that greatly interests me. I think it best to leave it at that. |
Nor is it likely, in my opinion, that "person B" will toss their experience out the window simply because "person A" doesn't believe there is any reality to anything deemed mystical. It's probably both more productive and enjoyable for these two persons to talk about something else -- their favorite music, for example. ;o)
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You would be right if between a mystical experience and a perception of a plant growing seen from a scientific viewpoint there would have been no middle ground perspective nor any levels... I illustrated this opinion of mine by quoting Goethe book about plant morphology and Cantor creating the most universal theory of mathematics borrowing the method of an ancient mystic of the 6 th century Dyonisos the Areopagite and borrowing the intuition of the absolute infinite from another mystic, Nicolas de Cues ...... This two example: Goethe scientific method of observation and the phenomonology of perception as analysed by the physicist Henri Bortoft , and on the other side the work on the foundation of Mathematics by Georg Cantor demonstrate my point : Between pure mystical experience and between raw perception of a plant , there is many levels of the prepared mind ...( you can add the reflexions on creativity and spirituality in mathematics with the 3 thousand published pages of Alexander Grothendieck ) Opinion of people here matter less than facts ... And fact demonstrate that the thinking faculty operates on many layers all intricated, nevermind if we are conscious of it or not ... For those ignorant of this , study Carl Gustav Jung the best known psychologist of the century,after Freud ...
Then there is no reason to stop because some need to study or do not remember how to think ... geometry, number theory and the idea of God or The Absolute are not matter of opinion but matter of thinking ...A plant or mammal morphological description is a fact not an opinion ... In the opposite then my quotes can be useful for ONE PERSON here and this is enough for me ... All are not blind , deaf, and completely dismissive of all poets, all mathematicians, all philosophers and of all revelations of natural science and acoustics ...Or are almost all materialist and transhumabnists without even knowing that thyey are ? 😊 Then i will go on discussing especially because i think as the OP and i completey endorse his point of view about music ... ... and i will not close this thread myself ...Save if a majority of people ask for it because a minority of narrow mind ask for it because they felt diminished by the necessary operation of thinking ... Why the world goes so wrong? Because people not only dont want to think but they despise those who think... 😁😊😁😊😁😊
Thanks for your kindness with my verbosity....
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The problem is ascribing "mystery" to things that are not. The poetry in lyrics can be beautiful. It can also be asinine. It can also be generated by extreme suffering, "why does it have to be this way." Layne Stayle. It can also be generated by mysticism, but it is not in itself mystical. Humans do stuff like this all the time, they like writing and typing. Mahgister is a great example. Creating and playing music is far more complicated and we hold those who can do it special, rewarding them huge incomes and special places in history. When I was an infant I would not sleep. My mother tried everything (except putting me in her bedroom). Finally, out of desperation, she put a table radio tuned to an all night music station in the crib with me. It worked great and the music has been playing ever since. The only mystery involved in music is why humans love it so much. It is a universal trait. Whenever you see a trait that is universal in a species somewhere back in time there was a survival benefit as almost all the critters that do not have that trait are not here anymore. I have never seen an adequate explanation for music in humans. The trait is so strong that it is present in infants. You are a great example of mysticism. (IMHO) |
You put in my mouth something i never said to be able after that have a way to dismiss my points...or worst you dont understand anything... You are not fair here... I never said that music is ONLY a mystical experience... Read my post above: between the mystical experience and the casual observation of a plant or of your feet crushing it , there exist MANY LAYERS OF THE THINKING PROCESS ABOVE your feet ...You negate them all to reduce poetry to a trivial matter and music to only something emotional and which can be written , period.... Read Owen Barfield book "poetic diction" : poetry is a felt change in consciousness" ... why a consciousness change by reading an assembly of words why ? And read his short book about science : "saving the appearances "... You reason like an accountant classifying income entries and exits in an account book... Poetry and mysticism that’s that, pure words assembly nothing else; pure debit and expanse at a cost of loosing time; and science that’s that, objective truth , a solid credit in the bank , the rest is just leisure time or at worst that mystical nonsense... You are like these persons without imagination in a Dickens novel ...Here there is something, and here there is nothing save a mystery for poor too imaginative mind ..Your thinking is with two drawers; is it not a bit limited? Do you think Georg Cantor and Alexander Grothendick and Goethe had no idea about science ? Explain to me why Charles Sanders Peirce was in all his life ferociously attacking nominalism ? it is because people like you separated the mind and the things in two uncommunicable Cartesian entities and taught others how to be out of touch with realities because it is very useful to not raise people above their payroll... We live an era where being out of touch push us toward annihilation by the fear of thinking ... And i am not a mystic by the way... In your mouth anyway it is an insult ... Then spare me insults as a way to dismiss my posts without answering any points ...😁There is many layers of the thinking process ; then learn something , between observing your feet and living a mystical experience of consciousness there exist MANY levels of consciousness ... Have you ever read a book ?
A book is precisely something speaking to each of us on many levels and not only two : your feet and the mystic useless poetry ...All book are not instruction manual about EQ or about our feet ...😊
It is not too late to learn , read one ... Try Owen Barfield very short books ... Or if you like too much your feet and dislike poetry try a book on mammal morphology to train your perceptive imagination ...
Wolfgang Schad : man and mammals ... you will stumble from your chair reading this one learning how to go from one level of thinking to another one ...One of the great book i ever read... 😊
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By the way you are certainly a genius because you are able to ascribe each mysteries his place: the trash bin or some awake day dreaming leisure time.. For you no mysteries at all in acoustic or about plant or God... All is settled by your marvellous operating mind .. You know you that mysteries are in a corner and reality in the other corner.. Dumdfounding genius you are ...Over all the stupid too imagimative writers and scientists i spoke about, none of them would have act as simplistic as you though ... ... Are you conscious of what you just wrote ? 😊 No mysteries in Natural science, in acoustics or about god...Plant are DNA evolutive machine , and Bach is only a superstitious man with talent to entertain... No mysteries in the Art of the fugue meanings ... No mysteries in history or in mathematics...
A mystery can be at least two different aspects of a thing AT THE SAME TIME : An unexplained enigma for the time being but even when explained and explaining as the DNA code discovery explained some genetical history enigmas, ANY problems created also a new hard to solve problem at the same time it give a solution to some and then it create a new portal in the mystery of life , a sacred new deep meditation and not a mere technological problem for big pharma to exploit ... On one side thinking mind meditating mysteries and solving problems without never drying up the well of thinking and on the other side industries exploiting them for profit , those one had no time for mysteries trust me ...
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The human system has very much a "energy based" existence that interacts very intricately with the known cosmos. It can't be measured with any conventional scientific instrumentation. We can't dissect ya like a toad and get anywhere with it. But, there are many energy points, convergence points, etc...which would all sound nonsensical to the modern self proclaimed scientific genius, for whom nothing is a living experience, for whom nothing has come alive/awakened. Certain types of music from the eastern part of the world were developed with this in mind (with a very deep understanding of the human system) and it can very intricately affect the above mentioned. Such a deeper understanding of the human system can only be developed by looking within...not by being be a haphazard, reactive, outwardly looking, shallow existence. Esoteric knowledge and the methods/framework for knowing have managed to survive/remain intact/retained in its sanctity relatively more in parts of Tibet, China, India, Central Asia, etc. In Europe, anyone who possessed any kind of esoteric knowledge was largely branded as a witch or whatever and burnt alive. In North/Central/South Americas, the European pilgrims ended most of them with such type of knowledge. In Africa, Islam has probably finished em all,,,the ones with such knowing. Mystic knowledge is just a very intricate, advanced "science" that modern dumb science hasn't caught up with yet....All you've got right now is the Damocles/double edged sword (nothing to brag about). AI and bioweapons (modern science!) will probably finish everyone soon enough..
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I could not have say it better .. Thanks deep_333 |
Does plants sing or speaks to insects and other plants and to some deaf humans ?
«Plants have long been considered to be unchanging, passive, and static organisms, Is There a Role for Sound in Plants? https://iris.unimore.it/retrieve/2944eb3c-4606-4eb8-9400-89eabd9c5f1b/plants-11-02391.pdf |
Reality and mysticism are always at odds with each other. I have been told on many occasions that I have to give people "hope." I never did when there was none. Miracles only happen in fairy tales. Fairy tales are for children. I am a huge John Coltrane fan, but there was a point were he left me behind. You can't play tennis without a net. Trane threw the net away. It was not brilliance or mystical. He was undoubtedly searching for something and perhaps it would have made more sense if he had survived longer. |
Now Coltrane is too mystical or non sensical in clear ...😁 ( Sun Ra must be a complete failure for you ) He threw the "net" away ... For sure an accountant need "a net" to live a life ...
Reality is reality, said the accountant... Mysticism is a word empty of content in my book say the accountant ... What a life you live ....No dreams except in the bed... No ectasy save reading your credit line ... Poetry means nothing ... atom exist and God is a myth... All we need is EQ of our life as we EQ our gear ...The life must resemble an average Gauss curve or a Harman curve , nothing must exceed the limit ...😁 I never encountered someone as you mijostyn...They will not even came to see me as students ...They dont read...Save for killing time ...
I am sorry but i am not used to speak to old boring man who will learn nothing more ...I miss the students ...This is why i spoke too much ...😁
What is at odds is mediocrity and genius ...Not mysticism and reality ...Read a book... I gave plenty of recommendation that completely contradict your saying ...
It is incredible... The OP recommended a marvellous deep video and you came spilling your opinion as truth , claiming all this is non sensical ...Think about that ... And you know NOTHING about any of the thinkers i spoke about but instead of asking questions , you repeated your motto as an accountant his columns prayers...
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Hildegard of Bingen and Teresa of Avila two of the greatest mystic in European history were so grounded and pragmatic character as much as knowleageable that kings and men of knowledge consulted these two women who organize the practical life of convents on all aspects of life and was anything save deluded dreamers... Read a book about them Mijostyn ... Hildegard was a scientist and a doctor and a musical genius self taught ... I dont know mystic who are not grounded in concrete reality ... But i know accountant philistine who conflate their book with reality ...😊
One of the greatest mystic who is also one of the greatest scientist of his time is Emmanual Swedenborg , who discovered the Cerebral cortex, and he even imagine fractals before Mandelbrot ...He advised the Swedish Queen on all scientific matter , do you think he was deluded ? He was called because of his inventions , the Leonardo Da Vinci of the North... Dr. Suzuki call him the Buddha of the North ... And what about Raimon Lull the creator of Cybernetic said Norbert Wiener speaking about the creation by Lull of the first combinatoric logic with retroactive input in history in the twelveth century ... He was one of the greatest poet and mystic to ever lived and a mind so deep that all the islam word listened to him ...he want to created a crusade of thinking not of swords ... Only an ignorant can confuse mysticism with unrealistic immature minds ... And only ignorance can confuse spiritual experience with superstition ...
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I don’t think at all that @mijostyn is as negative as he may seem. Stubborn as a Georgia mule, yes but I have come to recognize him as one who has a peculiar talent to spark debate with the keen ability to make others want to participate. I’ve seen him use a paragraph or even one sentence to start the debate about, styli, tonearms, turntables, subwoofers and seen everyone from, chackster, Raul, Atmosphere and even Audiokinesis want chime in and this would go on for days. I say this in with a positive vibe. But I’ve never seen so much fatalism from you? Take care my audiophile friend, I’ve been fortunate enough to learn so much from you here on Audiogon. |
Life is too serious right now to spark debate for the pleasure to spark a debate... I only said what i think and i never spoke to spark a debate... And i dont enter threads to extinguish some positive light because i cannot support the idea that others can make sense of it and i could not ... Sometimes i lack humor, i am too serious and i had little patience for short sight people...I am enthusiastic and never take lightly people who kill enthusiasm in the students... That explain my reactive posts .. 😊 |
’Bob Dylan famously called Smokey Robinson “America’s greatest living poet” for the exquisite beauty, pain and affection in lyrics to “Tracks of My Tears,” “Tears of a Clown” and so many other songs Robinson wrote and sang during his heyday at Motown in the 1960s and 1970s.’ @mahgister, you can check out Smokey Robinson's “Tracks of My Tears and “Tears of a Clown” on you tube. You will love his poetry! |
Point taken - understood (teacher). But please let me have my own inner truths, after all the path I choose is mine. And I in no way was dismissing your vital contributions. It’s that sometimes one has too counter a bad vibration with pleasant or good vibrations. Sometimes you have to try another path. Check out - Good Vibrations - Beach Boys 1966. After all this is Audiogon. |
My words were not aimed at you but at mijostyn... You dont kill any "hope" for the infinite... Mijostyn assigned to himself here this task...It is not the first time he confuse his materialist gospel as pure truth ... He never debate by the way, if he spark debate , he has no arguments for a philosophical debate...
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Wow you remind me of something here i listened too when i had 15 years old on my small battery radio ...😊 I had forgot ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNS6D4hSQdA
With Otis Redding too in the same years... It was my favorite soul song ... |
@deep_333, nicely done! |
You and I probably listened to the same radio station! It was CKLW out of Detroit, Mich. Or Détroit (pronounced De-Twah) in your native French. |
Probably... In my times there was not so much English radio stations in Quebec .. I remember the songs i listened too but half the times not the artist name ... Otis Redding what a so big hit , he was playing all days in this summer... I remember the words too because they are simple english and i lived the same situation alone on the dock facing St Lawrence river and thinking ... I listened Smokey Robinson but without knowing him...His silky voice is difficult to forget ... |
Sound if it is not noise but rythms and melody and harmonies can also be related to speech movements and body movements... The mystery of sounds is related to the timing of voices and body gestures, because with or without instruments , humans produce sounds and time their body movement to the sounds... Narrow minds will not see the mystery because they dont relate the movement of music and body to the inner heart and to the cosmic heart as someone who would look at the the pointing finger instead of looking at the moon and will mock those who look at the moon ignoring the finger after the first pointing movement ... The concept of meaning is a process never a singular occurence ...This concept so mysterious occupied the mind of Charles Sanders Peirce the creator of semiotics for all his life ... The concept of "meaning" stay as much mysterious today than in the past ... Narrow mind as the late B.F. Skinner want to explain it only with the concept of a set of complex conditioning inherited from Pavlov ... But "meanings" implicate consciousness and freedom and cannot be thought about without a thinking free consciousness able to create his own thinking content by his own free will ...The reason is that by freely creating his thoughts content with his free will man create an internal realm out of the inner set of inherited conditionings and out of the external set of conditionings ...This is why meaning and freedom are related ...This is why those who want to impose totalitarian control want to destroy meanings and free speech with for one ideal : transhumanist A.I. the next religion... Tai chi dances
Dancing buddhist monks :
Gurdjieff Dance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF6Hlbu-1FI
Steiner Eurythmy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah-GckVWjjc
Music exercise by Peter deunov
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I'm aware this is your mindset/perspective. We are actually quite similar in that neither one of us deigns to believe what we have not experienced.
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