Interesting discovery in acoustic : «In what’s described as a breakthrough decades in the making, scientists at Oregon State Health & Science University (OHSU) have revealed the inner ear architecture that converts vibrations into sound, in near-atomic detail. The discovery for the first time reveals the molecular machinery behind this fundamental sensory function, and opens up exciting new avenues of research into hearing loss.»
https://newatlas.com/biology/hearing-discovery-reveals-ear-architecture-vibration-sound/ |
These theories hint at why I find the later music of Deuter to be so attractive. He has what was once used to describe the writing of Ernest Hemingway - " skillful simplicity." The better my sound system has become the more can I appreciate what he does. Outwardly, his work might be derogatorily labelled "new age," but I prefer to think of it as a category of its own. Its effect on me is intensely physiological and entrancing, but that did not start taking effect until my sound system could rise to the occasion. |
An interesting very short video:
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What does it means for us ?
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Now after thinking about this acoustic revolution tying music meanings and perception to our own body/heart, listen to this song created by A.I. And ask yourself what did this A.I. really means for musiciand and for us humans ?
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No human characters has nothing to do with this universal facts on Earth . But you must read some articles i put above to understand... It is two different statisticals studies complementary and very different from one another who reveal the importance and need for an ecological theory of sound ( read the article about the Fourier limit beaten by human hearings and the conclusion ) which is demonstrated by the study about the perception of timbre which dictate the very different tuning compared to the theory of ratio in western Pythagoras tuning which dominated. There is an article by Akpan J. Essien whose doctorate thesis explain all that BEFORE the 2 studies confirmed it . The last study is about the universal way mankind decode music which his body not with only and merely with a computing brain .
As you will see it is an acoustical and psychoacoustical revolution ... If i measure the interest and reaction to this revelation by acoustics here with only the dumb trolls reaction yes human became duller ...😊 But it is only my subjective probably erroneous experience ...You are here yourself then there is not only trolls but wise people. Thanks for that .😊 And anyway some men actual state of mind or opinions has nothing to do in a direct way with objective facts statistically in psychoacoustics ... If you want to understand what is an ecological theory of perception read the Wikipedia entry about J.J. Thompson one of the greatest psychologist specialist of ecological theory of the visual perception. The same principle are applied by Akpan J, Essien in the auditory field...Reading his article you will understand why Pythagoras is wrong. I bought his doctorate thesis 4 years ago : "the Sound sources". A true genius.
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I will illustrated the acoustics revolution about Pythagoras being wrong with a new instrument for Most North American with an instrument related to the guitar but more powerful in a way than the guitar which is the father of the guitar ... Emotions are linked to the way we retrieve timbre information more than to mathematical ratio :
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This discoveries in acoustics studies is very important :
«You may know Pythagoras for the theorem that tells you about the sides of a right-angled triangle but the ancient Greek was a polymath in the true sense of the word, dabbling in philosophy, mathematics and many other fields. But now, a new study has found that one of his theorems may have been wrong. Pythagoras proposed that “consonance,” or the pleasant-sounding combination of notes is produced by the special relationship between simple numbers. Many researchers have tried to find psychological explanations but these “integer ratios” the ancient Greek philosopher talked about are still often credited with making chords sound beautiful, and it deviating from them is thought to make music “dissonan,” or sound unpleasant. But a new study published in the journal Nature Communcations this month found two key ways in which Pythagoras was wrong. It showed that it normal listening contexts, humans do not actually prefer chords to be perfectly in these mathematical ratios. “We prefer slight amounts of deviation. We like a little imperfection because this gives life to the sounds, and that is attractive to us,” said co-author, Peter Harrison, from Cambridge’s Faculty of Music and Director of its Centre for Music and Science, in a press statement. The study was conducted by researchers from University of Cambridge, Princeton and the Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics. Further, they found that the role played by these mathematical relationships disappears when you consider some musical instruments that are less familiar to Western musicians, audiences and scholars. These instruments could include bells, gongs, xylophones and other pitched percussions instruments. The researchers particularly focused on the “bonang,” an Indonesian instrument that consists of a collection of small gongs. “When we use instruments like the bonang, Pythagoras’s special numbers go out the window and we encounter entirely new patterns of consonance and dissonance. The shape of some percussion instruments means that when you hit them, and they resonate, their frequency components don’t respect those traditional mathematical relationships. That’s when we find interesting things happening. Western research has focused so much on familiar orchestral instruments, but other musical cultures use instruments that, because of their shape and physics, are what we would call ‘inharmonic’, ” added Harrison. For the study, the researchers created an online lab with over 4,000 participants from the United States and South Korea participating in 23 behavioural experiments. Chords were played and the participants were asked to give a numeric pleasantness rating or to use a slider to adjust the particular notes to make it sound more pleasant. The researchers were surprised when they found a major preference for slight imperfection or “inharmonicity.” Other experiments also produced similar results.» https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/science/pythagorast-theorem-music-9185570/
This means that the work thesis of Akpan J. Essien in acoustics is right, it was grounded in a studies of the speaking Yoruba drums , read this stunning article ( i had his book for 4 years now ) : The Body-Image Theory of Sound: An Ecological Approach to Speech and Musicthis article is free to read here :
This ecological theory about the origin of sound is already confirmed too by this very serious study : https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
These three very different articles are linked together and goes in the same direction ... Now the cherry on the sundae is this very recent studies i posted above : Bodily maps of musical sensations generalize |
Everybody know and can see how idiotic a post as yours is... It is simple... You listen the video above which gave us an astonishing lesson .. Came back here when you will borrow a brain... I will explain to you why .. and why it is linked to music interpretation by the brain you lack of apparently ... Not ashamed to look like an idiot harassing someone who post original content ? it seems not .. 😊
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All music dont act the same on the brain and metabolism : https://www.thedailymeal.com/1195246/the-sneaky-reason-fancy-restaurants-play-classical-music/ https://cloudcovermusic.com/music-psychology/purchasing-effects |
The sound of these instruments had always revealed to any listener that music is about a controlled expressive imperfection, the intonation coming from the relation between the timbre microdynamics and the human playing gesture and the note ratio...An information received as much by our body than by our ears. An information that must be felt before being thought about.
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the video above is only few minute of a magazine confirming what i spoke about in this thread as a real NEWS.. This second video will help those you dont know much about all that relation between tonal timbre playing intonation and the mathematical ratio inherited from Pythagoras , it will help through an apparent paradox exposed by this musician to understand why music understanding and feeling is related to the body more than to Pythagoreans ratio theory as it is clearly demonstrated in the two main articles and statistical studies above ......
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You did not remark as mean you are that these posts are mostly articles references , extracts and only very few observations of mine ? You are so idiotic that you post one line suggesting to me or to anybody as me we must obey your judgement : too much posts... You are comically stupid with the appearance of intelligence ...😊 You dare to throw your "opinion" about a content you did not even read , after i pointed to his HISTORICAL importance , why Pythagoras was wrong and what are the consequences on hearing theory and on music understanding...( for you it seems acoustics is panels on a wall ) You called my very important NEWS useless posted by a nut , relating 2 main research which used statistics and one book about a Writer you did not even know , this writer who anticipated BEFORE these very recent experiments their conclusions confirming his theory of hearing which put into a trasbin Pythagoras conception who influenced all acoustics till today ... You called my reporting adress of these articles hypocritally and in a mean way , patronizing as you allways did , especially people who had something to say you dont like, you call my postings : "very sad" suggesting a psychological unbalanced mind... i prefer to be "nuts" i dont contest that, than a patronizing ass who came back with the arrogance of closed mind only to be mean ... Everyone who will read these articles and relate them together will measure the importance of this news.. And do what you have done in your own thread about A.I. and music , quitting and sulking as if posting important articles must be an insult to "the great well known corrector around the world " you are as you already said to me , then why not quitting to sulk far from this thread too ?😁 Because here also i posted multiple science articles and comment you dare not even to read and decided instead with your petty character to insult me in your indirect hypocrital way even if you had read not only one line of these important NEW scientific information... You are comical so easy to decipher with your frustrated state of mine and mean character and arrogant patronizing polluting a thread with no arguments only insulting hypocritally a thread with real information not just my mere opinion... Everyone will decide if the information put by the "nuts" i am is valuable’ on his own right or will decide that your mean and hypocrital attack are valuable and true ? I am not like you. I spell thing as they are and i call an arrogant patronizing dude by his name ... You can play around faking to be sad about a "nuts" ...😊 Now do what you do the best go sulking because you are not recognized by all the best healthier and more intelligent and informed people here .. Anyway i put all these posts because they are there to be useful for one person... I am amazed by these new discoveries... It is not for you ... You did not even understand why they communicate important news it seems .. 😊 |
I would say that what makes music revolutionary is the way in each different culture different Timbre instruments experience induce specific feelings and experience in specific body locations... Then it is not a mathematical choice of tonality scale, be it western one or Eastern one that matter and makes music so enthralling, but the fact that in these tonalities it is their slight imperfection coming with specific instrument timbre properties that is pleasant and makes the sound interesting ...Or as said Ekpan J. Essien , it is the perception of the body image of the vibrating sound source that makes music a discovery and a deep information not only about the vibrating sound source material qualities but about our own vibrating body geography when feeling the sound...
I hope that these posts could be useful to at least one person here ... 😉 This last 12 post of mine through these studies article and one book adress the frontier between musical esthetic and acoustic science ... We live interesting time... This explain also why A.I. will never create interesting music because A.I. had no body located in an environment and do not play an instrument and cannnot interpret feelings as location in his body as we can as human ... A.I. will be a specialized very sophisticated "musical box" able to mimic anything... this is an interesting tool for sure but also a dangerous path ... 😊
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This is amazing too read it : «When we use instruments like the bonang, Pythagoras’s special numbers go out the window and we encounter entirely new patterns of consonance and dissonance," Dr. Harrison said. "The shape of some percussion instruments means that when you hit them, and they resonate, their frequency components don’t respect those traditional mathematical relationships. That’s when we find interesting things happening." "Western research has focused so much on familiar orchestral instruments, but other musical cultures use instruments that, because of their shape and physics, are what we would call ’inharmonic.’"»
« The researchers found that the bonang’s consonances mapped neatly onto the particular musical scale used in the Indonesian culture from which it comes. These consonances cannot be replicated on a Western piano, for instance, because they would fall between the cracks of the scale traditionally used. "Our findings challenge the traditional idea that harmony can only be one way, that chords have to reflect these mathematical relationships. We show that there are many more kinds of harmony out there, and that there are good reasons why other cultures developed them," Dr. Harrison said. Importantly, the study suggests that its participants—not trained musicians and unfamiliar with Javanese music—were able to appreciate the new consonances of the bonang’s tones instinctively.»
And now this explain why atonal music as Schoenberg is so boring and difficult to fit in the human body ... : «Importantly, the study suggests that its participants -- not trained musicians and unfamiliar with Javanese music -- were able to appreciate the new consonances of the bonang's tones instinctively. "Music creation is all about exploring the creative possibilities of a given set of qualities, for example, finding out what kinds of melodies can you play on a flute, or what kinds of sounds can you make with your mouth," Harrison said. "Our findings suggest that if you use different instruments, you can unlock a whole new harmonic language that people intuitively appreciate, they don't need to study it to appreciate it. A lot of experimental music in the last 100 years of Western classical music has been quite hard for listeners because it involves highly abstract structures that are hard to enjoy. In contrast, psychological findings like ours can help stimulate new music that listeners intuitively enjoy."»
https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html |
i am flabbergasted reading this article .. We see that the esthetic experience linked to music experience dont lie in an abstract conception , a Pythagorean one, about Harmony reduced to his mathematical Ratios but to the body itself as a whole not only when playing an instrument singing, dancing , but even listening ... if you relate this important article to the Cambridge study above and then go reading the Akpan J. Essien article about a new theory of hearing the sound source , an ecological theory of sound not based on just Fourier mapping.you will understand why this is very important revolution in music understanding but also Acoustic .. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121 Read the conclusion of this important article about a statistical research in music perception :
«We conclude that music induces consistent bodily sensations and
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I just put a very important research which is news in acoustic science and my patronizing friend said :
Anybody with a brain will thank me for these interesting information and news and will discuss with me about them but not our chief patronizing very well known corrector of text Hilde45... Perhaps you are right i like the truth, perhaps i am nuts...I dont exclude that possibility .. 😊 But sorry you are wrong the information above as the information in your thread about A.I. and music are not a "tiny apartment"... You are not ashamed by your insults ? Suppose someone with a working brain read these interesting information, are you not afraid of what he will think about your insults ? By the way these 13 posts contains almost only objective information... Did you remark? and almost no comments from me save to help the readers ... The dude who ramble as an idiot is you not me... You are not very wise and you are mean... I invite you in this thread to help you and go on a conversation finally at last about an acoustic discovery a very important one and the only post you gave is an insult as you did few times since a week now ... «Bears have only one skin»--🤓Groucho Marx 😁😊
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hilde45 are you here ? Do you think my post about acoustics are only about room panels ?😁 Now instead of insulting me why not reading and linking all that information together in this 7 posts and i will help you to understand without insulting or sulking you ... And i will link together this information here and the relation with A. I. in the thread about A.I. and music where you quitted because i gave too many posts it seems .. perhaps instead of insulting people discussing is better ... Thanks
By the way if you had not begun to understand yet, this last news about the Cambridge study confirm many other works as Akpan J. Essien work on the yoruba speaking drums and physical basis invariant perception pertaining to the sound source which will revolutionize the way we understand sound erroneously since Pythagoras......
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«Acoustic cues for perception “represent a narrow-minded Akpan J. Essien The Mechanical Invariance Factor in Musical Acoustics and This article adress is in my post above ... |
https://neurosciencenews.com/music-body-emotion-25664/
«Summary: A groundbreaking cross-cultural study has revealed that music universally influences bodily sensations and emotions, transcending cultural boundaries. Researchers from Western and East Asian backgrounds discovered that emotional and structural characteristics of music consistently evoke similar bodily sensations—such as changes in the chest, limbs, and head regions—regardless of cultural background. The study, analyzing responses to music from different traditions, underscores the role of music in eliciting comparable emotional experiences and bodily responses across diverse groups. This research highlights the intrinsic connection between music, emotion, and physical sensation, suggesting a shared human experience that bridges geographic and cultural divides.» «The research also dismantled the notion that music’s impact is purely subjective or culturally relative. Instead, it underscored the existence of cross-cultural, shared links between musical features, bodily sensations, and emotions.» The original research is here : Bodily maps of musical sensations across cultures http://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121 |
I hope reading the four posts above that hilde45Will be interested and instead of sulking me will apologize for his last insulting post about me and acoustics and will discuss : |
Pythagoras was wrong because sound sources are important and sound perceived qualities are rooted in physical perception not in abstract non physical ratio... In a way Leibnitz saying that when we listen music we compute without knowing it is not right and dont tell the story...
music is an embodied perception of the physical vibrating sound sources qualities... We need an ecological theory of audition and of acoustics... Akpan J. essien gave the basis for one...
And i will remind my friends here another reason why we need an ecological theory of sound perception as J.J. Gibson created an ecological theory of visual perception , it is an article about human hearing beating the Fourier limits : https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
For those lazy about reading listen this intro to the matter in the first 4 minutes minutes of radio podcast : https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/news-roundup-tim-revell/
And for those who do want all there is to know in three words there it is : «Imperfection is the peak»-- René Char |
now if someone want to go deeper... This Cambridge study confirm the thesis of Akpan J. Essien in acoustics in his book : "Sound Sources" : The book is described here , i bought it 5 years ago... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337721064_Sound_Sources_The_Origin_of_Auditory_Sensations if you cannot afford it you can read this article which will you an idea why this book is the most important i read in acoustics : https://sciencepublishinggroup.com/article/10.11648/10026300 Abstract : «Mechanical, acoustical, and neurophysiological investigations in music, acoustics, and auditory perception repose on the Pythagorean string ratio theory of musical pitch intervals (6th century B.C). Recently, the mechanical validity of the string ratio theory and its psychological import have been challenged and denied on grounds of invariance. In this regard, Essien (2014) demonstrated experimentally that, contrary to established tradition in physics of sound, the tension of a string is not constant when string length is modified even though the balanced-force exerted on the string is held constant. The data revealed the existence of two sources of force in a vibrating string: (1) The oppositely-directed force applied externally to the string (labelled Fex); (2) The force that is the intrinsic property of the string (labelled Fin). The latter is the missing parameter in Pythagorean auditory psychophysics. The omission lured researchers into acoustics and neurophysiology of pitch without an invariant physical correlate of pitch. Essien’s (2014) data showed that all transformations to string length or the balanced-force exerted on a string are various ways to modify the string’s resistance to deformation. Thus, the force in a string varies inversely with string length even though Fex is held constant. In the present paper, string length is shown to have very little or no effect at all on a string’s vibrational frequency and subjective pitch. Because psychoacoustic theories of hearing are founded on the string ratio theory, the data not only offer the missing psychological element that deprived the string ratio theory of a scientific status, but also refute both Ohm’s acoustical law (1843) and Helmholtz’s resonance theory (1877). The force in a string is portrayed as the mechanical parameter in control of pitch regardless of vibrational frequency or spectral structure. Implications for future research in musical acoustics and auditory perception are discussed.» |
The very important studies that correspond this video above is in this article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z
but for the beginners is is more easier to read this before : https://neurosciencenews.com/music-body-emotion-25664/ And this one : https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.htm |
Ask yourself how mechanical and electrical interaction can convey musical and sound meanings ? The missing part in this video is inside the brain , inside the neurons, inside the microtubules we are receiving qualitative information which is manifested in us by TIMING all informative sequences in a a form or a WHOLE . Without this timing array of choices coming from inside the informative cosmic field informing us through the hundreds of thousand of microtubules in each neurons we will not be conscious of any meanings we will reacted as robots with no freedom to create by choosing the right timing or the right form speaking to us specifically according to our individual history. No one hear the same . This is my informed opinion not pure science. I am a thinker not a scientist.
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I forgot to say in my post above that Indian music as Jazz is tonal music... The composers in any genre and style of european music can create at this border between tonality and atonality... Scriabin did it in a masterful way... Atonality is a resources , an affordance for tonal composers if it is not used for its own sake as systematized by Schoenberg and after him the Viennese school and others... What about Indian music which is so strange at first listening ? It is tonal also... «Indian music is tonal and has many features in common with Western music. One of the most significant differences is that the primary means of expressing tonality in Indian music is through melody, whereas in Western music it is through harmony (the use of chords).»
Now for chinese and Persian music it is a bit more complex it is not atonal, but is based on a different modes (a type of musical scale coupled with a set of characteristic melodic and harmonic behaviors.) : «Western music is based on a system of tonality, which is built around the concept of major and minor keys. The tonal system is centered around the diatonic scale, which consists of seven notes and their corresponding chords. Western music also uses complex harmonies, counterpoint, and polyphony, which allow for the creation of intricate compositions with multiple layers of melody and harmony. In contrast, Persian music is based on a modal system known as the dastgah system. The dastgah system consists of twelve different modes, each of which is associated with a particular emotional state. Persian music also uses quarter-tone intervals, which are not used in Western music. Persian music is generally monophonic, meaning that there is only one melody being played or sung at a time, although there are exceptions to this rule.»
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Incredible masterclass in french (sorry) about the dead end of atonal music...
But for those who do not understand french i propose only 4 minutes of listenings near 11 minutes in the video...
Among others facts the musician composer and pianist play one of his works on piano with a voluntary input of 2 wrong notes and everybody, even average non musicians , can perceive them as wrong notes...Even without knowing and without ever having heard this music before.
Then he played the first atonal piano piece from 1923 of Schoenberg and put 79 voluntarily wrong notes into the piece and when playing it not one of these wrong notes had been perceived by the specialists of atonal music listening them ...
Wow...
Even if you dont know french listen to this musical test near 11 minutes in the video .... ( the exercise test is near 4 minutes)
This means that our brain is tuned by our history and perhaps tonal music express a meaning which escape us especially if we want to innovate without taking into account the way our body/brain interpret music .
Music is not sound without meaning...
Music is meaning in sound working on our body/soul which recognize the notes and rythm and duration and metabolize them into consciousness levels and emotions...
Music is the history of these successive rememberances but as recreated...
Music is not random sounds nor artificial sounds...It is a living organism...
History is not merely about our tastes .. As said Owen Barfiels poetry " express felt changes in consciousness" it is the same for music and these felt changes in consciousness are kept in our soul and mind and body and became recreated memories and future intuitions ...
This master musician prove the point saying this at 19 minute : "each time tonality is used the discriminatory faculties of the mind are there, if we use atonality these discriminatory faculties vanished"...
He say that after playing without saying which one is the right one and the false one two atonal works , one version well done the other version disfigured... No one can guess which one ... 😊
Then he played a tonal piece and gave one faithfull rendition and one disfigured version without saying which one is which... Everybody guess immediately which is the wrong and which is the false version...😊
Stunning simple demonstration of what is "meaning" in music and how it exist and can be destructed, if we quit the ears/brain/body sound history in some innovation that cannot be recognized nor used as emotionally meaningfull for our soul/brain/body...
Music is a spiritual phenomenon.... Meaning create the past as the future... If we annihilate meaning reducing it to bits , randomness, abstraction, atonality, we annihilate the past and the future... it is called a dead end...
Our civilization is in such dead end right now...
Musical nominalism is the same nominalism that create scientism and ideologies...
Peirce the greatest american thinker battled all his life against nominalism as many other geniuses...he was right ...
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