Yup and notice he talks about fuses in the context of protection circuitry which is what a fuse is for. Nothing about fuses and sound quality. I recommend to take it from an expert and move on.
The guru on fuses:
For two years, I have asked why and how fuses could possibly matter. All I got was arguments of faith, pro or con. I needed a real audio guru who actually knows. Here is a link from John Curl’s discussion on Parasound’s website. He engineered and designed some some great equipment, including some Mark Levinson gear, The Grateful Dead’s 30 plus McIntosh amp powered Wall of Sound, and his admittedly, somewhat price compromised Parasound designs. He discusses the electrical properties of standard fuses, showing how they are compromised. The entire article is quite enlightening, but to skip to the fuse section, go to the bottom half of page 6. https://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf
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Audionet Humboldt uses a Rhodium fuse. Is it for better contact ?What Rhodium can bring that standard fuses can’t ? http://en.audionet.de/machines/humboldt/ |
Stop looking outside yourself for confirmation of your own worth/knowledge/reality. Be your own Guru. Buy some $20 Create Audio fuses from Parts Connexion and listen. Then you will know something. All true knowledge is directly perceived by our senses. Do not trust what anyone says.....including yourself. Believe your experience. More and more my experience shows me that everyone is beautiful and worthy of the infinite possibilities that are right in front of us. Enjoy every second. You are beautiful and loved......forever. |
Always amazed how different people are able to see or read the same thing and come to completely different conclusions. Here's what caught my eye: Of course, this is almost impossible to measure statically. Once you put a resistive load on and a certain amount of power the fuse is going to go up to it’s temperature and stay there and the resistance is not going to change very quickly, so you never know that the fuse is distorting. It only distorts getting up there and then going back down. It doesn’t necessarily distort by the time you’re ready to make the measurements. That’s one of our problems with static measurements. You just don’t know everything that you need to know.Something I have been saying for a very long time now: measurement ain't all that! Also this one passage, the lower half of page 6 that OP thought was so good, all it talks about is resistance. It's also a really, really simplistic view. After all, he himself says Something you learn in entry level classes, by the way. So put it all together, what have we got? The man himself saying it should be obvious there's a lot more going on than we can measure. Well if we can't measure- and no less an authority than John Curl just told us we can't- then what are we left with? Our ears. Listen. When we do that it very quickly becomes perfectly obvious there are vast differences between fuses, and even between the same fuse used one direction vs another. Go and listen. You will see. |
We're pretty lucky in that John Curl is a member of our local audio society and he regularly attends our Friday Zoom Happy Hours. After most of the crowd breaks for dinner we have the Happy Hour after party where John gets a bit more involved in the discussions. Let's put it this way, the man didn't get to where he is today by not respecting the laws of physics and electrical engineering. He does place an emphasis on listening, but understands that you have to have a solid circuit with which to base that listening off of. That involves ensuring the test measurements are up to snuff. Roger Modjeski was also a member of the audio society prior to his passing. He used fuses from the Little Fuse company in his designs. I've got hundreds of them here to resupply customers with the proper fuses for their amplifiers. To say the least, Roger was not very enamored with the expensive exotic fuses. Sure you can use your ears but hopefully nothing will blow up or catch on fire while you are listening. |
For those of you who think you are authorities, and especially for those of you who only read the half paragraph on fuse measurements, READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE! The gist is neither that fuses matter or don't, even though his explanation clearly shows why they should make a difference, nor is it that measurements do not matter. Curl clearly explains how critical listening shows differences that have not yet been measured, and how this experience clearly leads to better instrumentation that finds measureable electrical differences. |
roxy54 No, John Curl did not design McIntosh products, but he used for the system. He designed the crossovers, and worked with two other engineers on the monitor less dual microphone system (wired and positioned out of phase with each other to remove any feedback from the speakers behind the mics). He also provided his expertise for other wiring issues for the Dead's Wall of Sound system. There were two to four semi trucks, depending on the venue, each with sets of scaffolding. As the band played one venue, the second structure was being assembled at the next destination. Acid King Owlsley Stanley built the speaker cabinets, and JBL made many of the drivers, along with Electrovoice, I believe, abut Curl designed the electronics other than the amps. BTW, at Miami Jai Alai, about two and a half dozen 300 wpc transistor amps ran the instrument speakers, while 350 wpc tube amps were used for the singers, in order to get pleasing harmonics. Interestingly, there were no mixing boards, nor monitors. Check out the system below. I saw and heard it indoors at Miami Jai Aai, where a smaller number of amps, were used than at the outdoor stages, only a few dozen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound_(Grateful_Dead)#:~:text=The%20Wall%20of%20Sound%20was,as.... |
I liked the part about magnetic resistors vs nonmagnetic. Also the different cap composition and that it’s usually the first part to fail BETWEEN different stages.. Again quality parts are going a long ways, but he emphasizes the importance of HIGH quality copper resistors.. AND the best in dielectrics when it comes to cap composition. He didn’t seem to be a very big fan of mylar or aluminum either. I also picked up we should build, to spec, then listen, not concede that because the units are specked correctly no complaint can exist.. He says "LISTENING" is still the final say so, in a nut shell.. I say what about magnets on either side of the fuse holder.. Just like a laser being focused with magnets.. What the heck is that gonna do? I been wondering? He doesn’t like stray magnetic eddies.. What about where we want them... That silly fuse? Anyways, time to feed the chickens.. Regards.. |
Anyways, time to feed the chickens..Yeah give’em a fuse also , "maybe" then they’ll **** out directional eggs also! No "snake oil" fuse threads for weeks on end, then suddenly two new fuse threads within a couple of hours. These guys are behind it, https://ibb.co/LSrDX77 Cheers George |
To simplify this ,the resistive index on a steel fuse is about 18 copper ,silver 75,77 ,4 x less resistance it’s like a 1 inch pipe vs a 1/4 inch pipe the energy runs much smoother ,much is much lower low lever distortions ,these can be seen clearly on a scope , sonicly they do improve the sound ,and each fuse is cumulative . The high end fuse has been progressing and selling not everyone has a tin ear and yes they can take well over 100 hours to fully settle in .that’s my opinion .everyone may have their own beliefs like religion ,take from it what you want ,the rest respect others beliefs . I see far too many people knocking others . maybe they should listen to more music . |
nonoise Of course you are right; However, too many of the fuse people, (and especially the wire trestle people, seem to go on faith, especially the naysayers, a group I may have belonged to for too long. I am still waiting to hear the difference on my system, but my fuses may not do much. I also have a big, sensitive NASA circuit breaker per channel for power switches. Only once ever, have they tripped (two of four). No fuse has ever blown, and I often listen with the volume up to just before the clipping LED's trigger. |
This is one of those instances where you take a deep breath, take a step back, and remember why you listen to music. If all you are interested in is the technical aspect of sound reproduction, then you might as well be listening to recordings of pigs rutting and evaluating the shrillness and timber of their squealing. |
The high end fuse has been progressing and sellingHow on earth can anyone say, "they take 100 hours to settle in", was a recording done 100 hours prior, and then compared to now? please say yes!! |
The old both sides do it doesn't cut it on an audio site where discussions on what improves the sound is what it's all about. Now if you were to direct your anger at the trolls who frequent all the audio sites because they like to "own" them, then you'd have a point. Many reviewers have stopped taking comments on their sites, even on youtube, because of the vile nature of the trolls. If you've been an audiophile long enough, you'd know that this was not the case. In fact, it was considered an aberration. Petty, acrimonious and juvenile behavior has become the norm and it's not going to stop. All the best, Nonoise |
georgehifi8,426 posts02-06-2021 3:14pm Anyways, time to feed the chickens..Yeah give’em a fuse also , "maybe" then they’ll **** out directional eggs also! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's it... George!! I'll put up with a lot of stuff. But talkin' BS about my chickens egg laying, you've crossed the line.. Green eggs and Ham. You ever laid an egg? There is a direction.. Look at the EGG!!! Serious, eggs are directional.. Kinda like the chicken hawk that landed on the hen house. It forgot about my Banty Rooster. By By Chicken Hawk, chop chop , comes to mind.. It came in one direction, it sure didn't leave the same way.. Like a fuse.. No direction? AC is always doing the Cha Cha Cha towards the sources then its ground. When I use fancy fuses, they CAN, (not that they do every time), CHANGE the sound. YES it takes time for that goo to settle back around the fuse end caps.. There is a reason WHY the sound changes, and also a reason to leave the fuse alone after it's installed.. Take that silly fuse apart, there is a non magnetic, tapered thermal filament in it.. NOT just the same size from end to end. I've looked at the slow blow and the spring winding is wound tighter on one end than the other. They use S-conductors, ??? yes better than copper is? SILVER. They have used tungsten, nickel, rhodium, lead, tin, aluminum, mylar. YOU name it they have used it.. NOW think.. what would be the better conductor from a tech, or a silly old mechanic, point of view... Why would a better, tiny little wire make a difference.. BECAUSE it is just that... A tiny little wire... I try to make darn sure it's a GREAT ONE... Simple me....Just a common fella!!! Now try to lay that egg sideways.. George.. :-) Kidney stones comes to mind... Now the important part... I want to know what effect magnets have on the FUSE.. The most IMPORTANT, yet neglected part of a piece of equipment? I'm gonna build a gadget.. Regards |
This is the second time I have mentioned fuses as a potential topic. Thanks everyone for confirming my faith in the suggestibility of the human mind. BTW, The Skeptic has a video about the evolutionary advantages of fooling ourselves. Catch it if you can. Also, their article, "Audiophoolery" is a classic. Google it. You don't have to agree with all of it, but if it truly offends you, please seek help. |
Sorry to disappoint, but anyone that keeps posting about fuses and their sound quality advantages and directionality differences, is the one that really "Needs Help", and you can take that as written in stone. The day you hear from the "great audio designers" saying they install these $150+ snake oil fuses into their equipment as standard production because they "sound better" is the day you give up audio! BTW, the John Curl interview you posted in your first post, if you comprehend it, only compares fuses as a "protection device" to save his amps from going up, nothing at all about comparing the ’sound quality" of them, I would stop insinuating John Curl is backing up your own beliefs. Cheers George |
No conclusion? if you need votes, I am +1 on fuses making a sonic difference also. We know that protection is required and Mr. Curl also honestly stated that measurements cannot be faithful if done statically-no explanation yet (work under progress). Mr. interviewer you did not ask the right question whether an upmarket fuse should have value if any. In fact there was no question for any upmarket item, so no answer. But... Resistors have other characteristics that effect the sound. One is the type of lead material used.Apart from a generally soft interview with a well respected manufacturer I was not enlightened whether an upmarket fuse is audiophoolery since he claims that different type of materials affect the sound. One coin with same side? And finally he seals it. Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. G |
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BTW, the John Curl interview you posted in your first post, if you comprehend it, only compares fuses as a "protection device" to save his amps from going up, nothing at all about comparing the ’sound quality" of them, I would stop insinuating John Curl is backing up your own beliefs.I guess they speak a different kind of English down under. Or maybe it’s the comprehension part that is different. The whole piece is on distortion and it’s effects on sound. Curl starts out on protection devices and then goes on to the matter of fuses. On how they fluctuate current and that it hasn’t been measured properly. On how they vary resistance and how much that distorts. If the piece is about distortion and its effect on sound, why would he mention fuses? It wasn't mentioned as an aside. All the best, Nonoise |
allnoise See this is where your (sorry Jethro) thick as a brick, and ( Sitting on a park bench) There is no mention of sound quality because of fuses, it’s all as amplifier fuse protection parameters measurements. You can have distortion measurements in countless other things than just in audio, allnoise. |
OP, someone gave me a hand full of SR fuses and ask me if I would like to try them. I have NO skin in this game... I was using ACME and Tuners. I tried a SR in a hot rodded Samra C20. There was a nice change. It took 50-100 hours to sound its best, but the change was instant, it just got better.. a Blue SR. I just have the fuses in a few pieces of equipment, and in some equipment they sound really good. Others, no change at all. I'm not quick to say, it changed either.. It had better change, or I will tell you.. You're hearing nothing BUT.... I have a friend or two.. That can talk themselves into or out of anything... lucky for me... They go sideways, more so, because they can. 10-30k every year for the last 15 years. its just money to them.. ME I'm pretty frugal.. NO 150.00 fuses that I paid for... 10-25.00 usd.. Regards |
The fuse he was talking about was in the speaker circuit, not the power circuit. Also note his comment before about building an amp that he thought he did everything right, but still blew up when shorted. Just because someone has a "fancy name" even John Curl or Nelson Pass, they can be wrong and there are limits on their knowledge. |
I would like to recommend you purchase Littelfuse fuses, which cost $4-8 each, before getting $100 fuses to try. Yes! they make a difference if your system is transparent. Don’t listen to others who say it doesn’t make any difference. The same people say Cables don’t make a difference. Littelfuses Fast blow - 216 Series Slow blow - 285 Series (medical and audio) |
That’s a massive assumption of yours, I have had an owner of one of these $150+ fuses who swears by them, he bought one to my place I "pretended" to put it in, but I DIDN’T. Then played the system again, he said wow that’s better!!!! Then I put it in, he thinking the old Bussman went back in, then he said that’s back to being worse.!!!!! I didn’t have the heart to tell him, he was conned. As he is a customer of mine. BTW I heard absolutely no difference compared to my $2 Bussman fuse. Cheers George |
Fuses remain a great way for hyperbole based companies to make big bucks (what do you think it costs Synergistic to make a fuse?...50 cents maybe?) so they'll always be around, but simply the nature and purpose of a fuse keeps it from improving the sound of any component...this explains why the manufacturers of components (and I mean all of 'em I'm aware of) care zero about "special" fuses. Zero. |
Sorry, but a fuse is Not going to change the sound of anything. It is all in your(s) head. Your brain will tell you it sounds better to compensate for the guilt of throwing hard earned money out the window. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This statement could not be more true. If you don’t try one you have NO say so.. simple as that.. No use, No say, Even George admits he did not use a fuse.. he tricked his customer. So he admits he DID NOT use or listen to the fuse.. He said it not me.. Again if you take the fuse out of your power amp for example, and turn it around and DO NOT hear a difference, the chances are that you will not benefit from a "FANCY FUSE". Either your system, just doesn’t need it, you can’t hear it, or you don’t want to hear it.. It makes no difference as long as the person doing the listening and PAYING for the fuse is. They have a money back guarantee, if you blow a SR fuse they will replace it without cost usually.. It’s not easy to pull off "I’m Stupid", some make it sound so easy... As the saying goes "Jealousy always brings unkind word" I’m just another prick like the rest, but I don’t hide behind "STUPID". Yup way to much time here.. Mercy.. I’m out of here. Place has me thinking folks are just friggin’ deaf and stupid.. That’s just not me... I’m better than this...Geez... By By.. |
Fuses do NOT affect audio performance. They are a safety device. When will the audiophools stop fooling themselves and realize the exaggerated placebo effect ? Fuse is a very very small resistor on the supply line, whose value is almost no different from the rest of the copper supply wire it is in series with. Now please repeat after me, while slowly and repeatedly banging your head against a corner wall: God grant me the serenity to accept that a fuse does not ever affect the audio performance of an amplifier, the courage to admit to that and the education to understand what a fuse really does, together with the wisdom to know the difference. Repeat this about 10,000 times and maybe there will be some hope for you. |
Fuse is a very very small resistor on the supply line, whose value is almost no different from the rest of the copper supply wire it is in series with.They can’t while their heads are in the https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/scaled/2013/12/18/article-0-1A2B262D00000578-818_636x382.jpg or up https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/pVpTlPhDI-JmTveZ_oeiW4LzfvebMP5EeBXpu_-8d7CK-QcJkhZfPUDJjfp1... Cheers George |
speakermaster105 posts02-08-2021 9:07pmI can tell you that vintage fuses are an incredible upgrade because of the high quality of their construction. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. I would love to hear a pair of the "Speakermaster", speakers.. I just got a feeling... You Mr cakyol, for a tech guy you sure are THICK. Cables, fuses, what's next, speakers and amps.. The Parts Express, amp kits are good enough along with their speaker kits.. RIGHT? Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. So is Sound Quality.. There is stereo, and there is HiFi listening to stereo.. There is always BETTER... NO it does not mean 150.00 fuses or 10k cables, BUT it does take an unbiased ear.. I think that part is broken on every flat earther here.. Fusers, vs Flat earthers (the prove it to me crowd). The reality of it is, only one side will enjoy the change, no matter the reason.. I'm glad I'm a mechanic and DID try a LOT of new things.. Cables and fuses being two of them.. I bid you adieu |