Allnoise, stop being such a nong.Wow Georgie. I bet that goes over big with the crowd of 12 year olds you hang out with. Doesn’t that violate the terms of your parole agreement?
All the best,
Nonoise
The guru on fuses:
For two years, I have asked why and how fuses could possibly matter. All I got was arguments of faith, pro or con. I needed a real audio guru who actually knows. Here is a link from John Curl’s discussion on Parasound’s website. He engineered and designed some some great equipment, including some Mark Levinson gear, The Grateful Dead’s 30 plus McIntosh amp powered Wall of Sound, and his admittedly, somewhat price compromised Parasound designs. He discusses the electrical properties of standard fuses, showing how they are compromised. The entire article is quite enlightening, but to skip to the fuse section, go to the bottom half of page 6. https://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf
208 responses Add your response
Hear ya go George if you can understand this read.. Jon Dahlquist was the speaker designer Debbie Miles my seismologist friend coined the phrase interfering energy as we both have designed products that reduce a polarity of shear. Shear does return to the source and therefore generates interference. Shear is how a speaker works.Some energy moves straight off the center of the cone or membrane. The rest moves on both sides and thru the cone..and guess watt it hits the surround and the frame and returns back down the cone and interferes with the note that's coming its way. And it also bounces off the dust cap.. A head on collision...same goes for your audio room. The world is not just compressive it is also shear. Shear upon impact is like breaking all the balls when playing pool. Energy goes everywhere and into the next material boundary.. Try this on. Your fuse element is included..its there if you have eyes and a mind. https://www.olympus-ims.com/en/ndt-tutorials/flaw-detection/wave-propagation |
Nice jump in sound quality over that vibrating metallic dingle berry that is now in the trash..fuses are subjected to shear wave interference and it carries on from there. Tom I see you are using your hammer again. Only issue, the problem is not a nail. I must say you swing that hammer at everything. Don't hurt yourself. |
Shear does return to the source and therefore generates interference. Shear is how a speaker works.Some energy moves straight off the center of the cone or membrane. The rest moves on both sides and thru the cone..and guess watt it hits the surround and the frame and returns back down the cone and interferes with the note that's coming its way. And it also bounces off the dust cap.. A head on collision...same goes for your audio room. The world is not just compressive it is also shear. Okay, now I am convinced you don't know what you are talking about. Thank you for clearing that up. "shear" is not how a speaker works. In an ideal speaker, there would actually be no transverse waves in the cone material at all, but they are unavoidable. If you could make a perfectly stiff cone, there would be no transverse wave at all. However, that is not practical and hence why we have cone breakup which everyone is quite aware of, inverse dusk caps, etc. This is not news. This also has nothing to do with fuses. Put the hammer away. Wrong problem. |
Shear waves travel in more than one direction and when they encounter another boundary material they change speed and go in more than one direction again. This repeats until there is no boundary or no motion. Shear in materials is why and how we can tell the difference between brass and lead. Knowing how shear works allows us to design better sounding and more efficient audio products..even the lowly fuse with at least 3 surface boundaries for shear wave resonance to ricochet off. Tom . |
Swing that hammer Tom, swing away! Most people who deal professionally with waves would refer to them as transverse waves but whatever. Thank you for describing refraction. I am sure no one knows anything about that. However, if you think that shear waves are the only transmission in a solid, of course you would be wrong, and that would apply to lead and brass too. Breaking the balls playing pool is longitudinal wave transfer, not transverse by the way ... you know compression and decompression. May want to work on your analogies there. Thinking everything is shear ... is not going to lead to good acoustic products. |
"I commented before that these fuse discussions are useless. For Gods sake, take advantage of Music Directs 60 day policy and try their Hi Fi Tuning fuses. Don't measure and just listen. If you don't hear a difference, then return them for a full refund. If you hear a positive difference that you feel is worth $100.00, then keep them and enjoy the music and stop with these useless discussions on whether fuses make a difference. We were given 2 ears for a reason." +1 IF you’re interested in (possibly) improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: try a better fuse, FOR YOURSELF. The Naysayer Church HATES it, when THAT happens!
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Could someone who knows electrical engineering (I am just about competent enough to change a fuse but that is my limit) help me understand the difference alternative fuses could make relative to the difference running 240v vs 120v through that same circuit? To my poor level of understanding, it would seem to me that the fundamentals of doubling voltage / halving current through a circuit ought to have a bigger effect than 1cm of a different conducting material in that circuit. Yet most equipment we use has a simple 240/120v switch around the back. Won’t flipping that switch drown whatever effect the fuse in the circuit might have? |
One of us could explain it, but it would be far more entertaining to let rodman99999 et. all jump through hoops while doing mental gymnastics trying to justify why the fuse will matter more than the extra 10,20,30, 100 feet of wire switched in/out of the circuit when connecting to the 120/240V tap (assuming it is not a switch mode). I personally enjoy the angry use of caps, the avoidance of listening without their eyes, and calling others angry while you can tell simply from their writing how worked up they are. |
The debate here is useless because there are too many opinions. I have stated on a previous post that Music Direct has a 60 day return policy. So if someone wants to try the Hi Fi Tuning fuses, they can purchase and listen on their own system. Then you can use your ears to judge for yourself whether or not they are worth the $100.00 investment. If they fail the audition, they can be returned. No harm done. This endless discussion on fuses is big waste of time unless you try them. |
Ok and then there is this bending ..wave speaker...in the animation it reminds me of a fuse under power. One of the springy ones will be worse than a solid element. If poorly terminated the wave front will continue to modulate and have a polarity travel back to the launching pad. Like to see how this speaker is terminated. Will the response on the outside of the device be the same as that on the inside..thinking of a Walsh driver. Tom https://www.bendingwaveusa.com/technology/ |
audiotweak That is because you only sort of understand one thing and hence for every problem you swing the hammer. The bending wave speaker creates a pressure (longitudinal) wave, as it must, which means it must move, as a whole, in and out, though less of it moves in and out dependent on frequency. I have to go with Caykol, what have you been smoking? Fuses dude, fuses. |
What I understand is that sound waves just dont leave a surface and propagate into the air. Some of those waves become shear waves and return on the same surface to the point they were generated..same on a cone or flat surface same on a bending wave speaker..the returning wave creates interfering energy. The cures for this relief can generate other negative factors like mass loading the edges or over damping. Glad I have you thinking and exploring things you never had.. In search of the missing part of your brain. A fuze element is continually banged around by ac variation generating shear in the thin walled glass tube and the 2 endcaps. There is no 100% relief for the vibration to exit the casing except when the unit is off or when its resonant operation interfers (bad relief) with the actual stable starting point of any quality audio device the ...power supply. No one wants a low quality power supply especially when the cure is just a phone call away. Tom |
When the longitudinal wave of a bending wave speaker hits any boundary the wave becomes a shear wave with 2 polarities at least 1 of the polarities will be returning and interfering with the next wave launch. This same interference displays the same return on a record thru the vinyl and surface. Shear constantly moves between the paper label center and record lip. The stylus plays the recording and the returning echoes are mixed with the music the stylus must translate but not totally..Another incidence of interfering energy. There are a couple of devices I see reducing the interference. Tom |
Jesus Tom, you had me waste half an hour reading all this bending wave speaker stuff only to learn at the very end this borderline magical technology is 86dB at 2.8 ohms. In other words, useless. Oh well, at least I learned something. Unlike these other boobs you are wasting your time with here. They never learn anything. Why do you bother? All the cool stuff you're talking about, right over their heads. Oblivious as Drax. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLttd33j-GQ They are not worth your time. Not even. |
I have read your posts Miller, unlike you, people, like actual professional people in the music industry, come to me when they want to learn. Real things, like actual things that happen, not made up stuff. You keep up with that delusion. maybe between you and tweak you can figure out that bending wave speaker ..... but I doubt it. |
bad2design how about a fix for the dispersal of shear that is inherent by scripture on any piece of vinyl. Ask your digital fixit clan how to recognize that and what there digital correction maybe on a record play back before and after the shear wave reaches the stylus and generates interfering energy? Tom |
Missed a few days, thought I'd check out how it's going. Looks like I didn't miss anything - people still insulting others over a stupid little fuse. danvignau...Are you happy now? When you saw how this thread was going why didn't you put it out of its misery? Don't bother responding I'm not going to read it. Fuse threads are what cancel culture was designed for. |
It was a fine but failed attempt to appear superior theaudiotweak, but digitally, if someone cared, you can actually differentiate from the initial signal and reflections quite effectively in the digital domain similar to how Kippel can achieve anechoic like testing at bass frequencies, even in a room with reflections at wavelengths < bass frequency measured. The question would be why would anyone bother, when they could just start with digital except to attempt to recover information (once and only once) from old records. Of course that has already been done with a multitude of digital techniques. Keep swinging that hammer. |
So what is the input signal when it has been corrupted by the same mechanical reading of the shear wave which is much of the wave type pressed into the vinyl. Those wave motions are the shear and also mixed in are the polarities of shear that travel the material. Like to see the removal of the interference in the digital domain without corruption of the original signal. Like to know and like to hear the results. Tom |
Shear wave elastography or something equivalent if offered by Kippel would be a novel and useful tool to measure surface vibration and deformity of a speaker and any material or device even a fuse element. In a short search there is no mention of wave types on their site that I can locate. I guess I will write them. Tom |
OMG ... do you even know how "sound" travels in a material. Transverse waves are not the only method. Even solids have longitudinal waves. When vinyl is cut, it is intentionally cut at reduced speeds to reduce impacts of vibration ... you know the non-fancy name for what you mainly call shear. But really, who cares. The vinyl is already pressed and if it is new vinyl, it is pointless you should have just stayed digital. |
I know how sound travels in materials.. After seeing this video and recognizing the motions we at Star Sound developed the Platter Ground this video https://youtu.be/GuCdsyCWmt8 puts a scope on the implications of shear wave generation. I met with a fellow company member who is a geophysicist and we wrote the following in September of 2016. The stylus makes shear because it is physically bumped as it travels in the groove in the groove. This is a purely mechanical process. Part of the shear energy mechanically excited by the stylus travels through the record to the center or the outside of the record depending on the movement of the stylus. The energy in the vinyl interferes with the sound when it bounces off the edge or center of the record, and travels back to groove creating an additional vibration on the stylus. The stylus has such a fast shear velocity that the energy - both the music and the interference - that it then can be translated very quickly and cleanly into electrical pulses. The shear going to the outside of the record will always be behind the stylus because it is having to travel the distance to the outside edge and back plus the distance the stylus has moved since the shear wave was created. The distance the stylus moves is increased to the shear traveling to the outside because the outside edge is physically moving faster than where the stylus is. This is a velocity that has an acceleration component due to the angular momentum of the record - ie we are now into an equation with a first and second derivative. The vinyl has a slow enough shear velocity that the shear going toward the outside edge will miss the stylus on its return from the edge and go to the center of the record. The shear energy going to the center of the LP will move through vinyl that is traveling slower and slower, so when it bounces off the center label it will could be in front of the stylus. This is the energy that the Platter Ground removes. Also since the stuff bouncing off the outside edge of the record is behind the stylus, the only shear that can interfere is the shear coming from the center of the record, not the outside edge. The mechanical world has many aspects that create complexities. The rotation of the record only affects the energy traveling in it, not the energy going from the stylus to the magnets in the tone arm (the arm is not moving much). I suspect that the platter ground creates the greatest effect when the stylist is on the outside 1/2 or so of the record. More discussion. We see that the needle is creating a diagonal side to side motion creating the information of stereo. That diagonal has a shear component and a compressive wave component moving through the record. The weight on the center removes both. The slit in the Platter Ground allows the compressive waves to go into the air (not big enough to hear) The shape of the inverted cone with the slit. It fans out the waves that then interfere with themselves which can’t go around the cone because the slit breaks up their travel. Those that may escape will travel the height of the cone. The energy is dissipated as a very small amount of heat. Mechanical grounding of the speaker is real because the movement (vibration) of the center of the speaker sets shear waves moving through the speaker membrane as well as the speaker cabinet. Only one of the polarities of shear makes music the other interferes. I have no direct experience but some of what I see with the hex mat will reduce shear wave interference on a record similar but different to our Star Sound Technologies Platter Ground. http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/star-sound-technologies-platter-ground https://www.hexmat.net/ That’s all for now. Tom |
bluemoondriver Fuses are tiny pieces of low value resistors which when heated to the correct temperature by excess current passing thru them, melt and avoid damage & a possible fire. They contribute ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the sound. I just measured the resistance of 2 ’normal’ fuses: a 500 mA fuse had a resistance of 0.7 ohms. Meaning, that the power dissipation on it will be I^2 x R = 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.175 watts as it is about to blow. It means that the fuse will melt at such a very low power dissipation, when its limit current is reached. And the voltage drop across it at that current will be 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35 volts. Absolutely negligible. This fuse is obviously for a very low current circuit. A second fuse I measured was for 8 Amps, more typical of a 2 x 200/250 watt 120 VAC typical amplifier. Its resistance was 0.3 ohms. This means it would dissipate about 8 x 8 x 0.3 = 19 watts. And the voltage drop across it at that current would be 2.5 volts just as it is blowing. Again totally negligible voltage drop. What makes them different is the melting point of the material used in them. Note that the one that passes 8 amps must withstand a dissipation of about 20 watts before it blows whereas the 500mA fuse is required to blow at only 0.175 watts. Note that I did not mention temperature. When a fuse is working at less than its maximum limit, it is obviously still dissipating power and is likely to get warmer/hotter. This typically will increase their resistance, meaning the power dissipation on them is likely to increase FASTER than I^2xR with increasing current, meaning they start actually dissipating more heat as they get closer to their blowing current. Here is a link which explains that relationship, towards the bottom of the page, which headlines "PTC characteristics", if you really want to understand them deeper: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/application_guides/littelfuse_fuseology_application_g... Basically, fuses HARDLY affect the currents passing thru them. They are almost ’transparent’ as they should be, not to affect any operating parameters in the rest of the circuit. Fuse believers are just hearing things which are not there. They need urgent help. |
blah blah blah blah, etc. Only direct experience will give you any TRUTH. Create Audio Fuses cost $20 from Parts Connexion. You try, you like, you don't like, you hear a difference, you don't hear a difference.....but at least you listened.......instead....you guys just blah blah blah blah, till you die. Not much truth or happiness in that game. Have some fun.....open your mind.....try something new.......the ego does not like new.....it likes the same thing over and over again.....define and defend.....that is what the ego does. Whereas an open human tries new things and knows that "not knowing" is really fun......and sharing new things that you try is even more fun. So, what are you sharing?.....your ego?.....or your soul? The choice is yours....every second. Thank you for listening to my sermon.....please come back next Sunday for another edition......however, it will say the same thing.....the only thing to say......which is, we are infinite, we are beautiful, we are love, we are joy.....and that is forever and ever......bless us all. |
Well I have listened, and have "made" many audiophile friends listen to, on their system, with their boutique fuses, and my generic new ones. Not once, literally not once could they pick out the boutique fuse blind in a power supply circuit. That is 10 people, about 15 tests. How many times do I have to replicate the test to prove the point? The reality is, though, that I could detect a fuse change with equipment, measuring only at the power supply, at the very limit of continuous power, but would be very difficult, if not impossible to detect at the output, due to the supply filtering, and feedback, either local or overall of the amplifier. |
bluemoondriver, Yes, negligible to voltage as well. A fuse is a current device. It reacts to the current flow in it. It is not voltage dependent. The only reason they MAY put a voltage rating on it is to make sure that you do not use it in a circuit which may be above its maximum INSULATION voltage, for safety. But its blowing parameter is ALWAYS in Amperes, not volts. Having said that, a typical device, assuming it can operate with multiple voltages, will usually draw HALF as much current when used with 240 Volts as it does when used with 120 Volts. So, if you are using .. say a 1200 watt power consuming amplifier, at 120 Volts, it will draw 10 amperes when operating at its maximum volume and will need a 10 amp fuse. When you take this device to the UK for example (assuming it DOES work there and has a voltage selector on it to allow that), the same device will now need only a 5 amp fuse, since it is now connected to 240 Volts. NONE OF THE ABOVE IN ANY WAY WILL AFFECT THE SOUND. IT IS ALL FOR SAFETY. |
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Because BS must be stamped out at all costs in this industry, to keep this hobby honest.And you and your ilk are the self appointed crusaders. In other words, you and your kind are nothing more than run of the mill fanatics, who get aroused by posting such nonsense. Do you self mutilate like the crusaders of old, after getting aroused? All the best, Nonoise |
I have no idea whether fuses matter or not. But Ayre instructed me to remove my fuses when I told them I bought a used VX-5 Twenty amp and it came with HiFi Tuning Gold fuses. He (not going to mention his name) said you'd be amazed at how many 'audiophile' fuses are poorly manufactured and as such, set their unit into fault mode (which in my case, he was right). All tested fine with my meter but nevertheless, the Ayre didn't like them. A month or two later, I had to send the amp in to them to have new caps installed (maybe unrelated, maybe not) and they put in clear generic (and I assume cheap) fuses. Surprised they weren't even ceramic. The amp sounds amazing so I'll just say ignorance is bliss in my case. No thanks on trying those things again. |