The bass is the place...
I I agree. My dealer has a pair of full range persona 7f set up to sound magnificent yet when he supplements the bass with a sub the soundstage opens up even more and while the bass probably measures +10db more sounds better. Getting that elusive room lock can really compensate for other shortcomings in a system. Generally speaking |
Getting bass right means you need to have the bass emanate (in most rooms) from several locations at once. This is because most rooms have standing waves forming at bass frequencies, and no amount of power to correct a resulting deficiency at a certain frequency at the listening chair can fix it- the more power you put in the standing wave, it just cancels using the same power. This is why room correction and bass traps work poorly at best. But if you have multiple bass sources (IOW a Distributed Bass Array) then the standing wave can be broken up, resulting in evenly distributed bass throughout the entire room. It is obvious this is the more elegant approach. So its really not all that advantageous to have a speaker that plumbs the the bottom octaves if that output isn't heard and felt at the listening chair! If the bass modules don't go above 80Hz they won't attract attention to themselves as generally speaking, bass is omnidirectional to the human ear below about 80Hz. So in most rooms if you want to do it right, a speaker that goes down to just below 80Hz can do the job nicely if supported by 4 asymmetrically placed subs (two being in the front). If you have one sub, or just two, it will be seen that their ideal location probably isn't the same as where the main speakers have to be (as mentioned earlier). But if you have main speakers that do make it into the deep bass regions, you might only need 2 extra subs placed along the sides or in back to break up the standing waves. That is how I'm doing it at my house, since my main speakers go to 20Hz. If I had it to do over though, I'd get a set of Swarms from Audiokinesis and just have a much smaller set of main speakers in front. But I like my Classic Audio Loudspeakers- they are some of the best speakers made. |
So, we are left with, at least IMHO, most speakers that really cannot produce accurate and extended bass with any real precision. Your thoughts? Why is the bass the place? Turns out the reason its so expensive is we were taking the wrong approach. Turns out its impossible to achieve genuinely good bass response with only two speakers. Any two speakers. No matter how big. No matter how powerful. No matter how expensive. Cannot be done. Not with that outdated approach anyway. Change to the method that works however and it becomes trivially easy. Incredibly easy. Affordably easy. The solution is to not hardly even consider bass response with the stereo pair. Mid-bass on up is all that matters. Sure if they put out good deep bass that is always a plus. But its a very low priority. Because that’s not how its done. The solution for bass as everyone now knows is called a Distributed Bass Array or DBA or what Audiokinesis calls a Swarm. A system of four or more subs distributed asymmetrically around the room. With a DBA suddenly truly deep, powerful, smooth, and articulate bass is super easy to achieve. The subs don’t have to be that big or powerful because there’s so many. Placement is easier and more forgiving. And the cost is reasonable, roughly $3k for true state of the art bass. The biggest obstacle is that while the physics and acoustics behind DBA is compelling hardly anyone has heard one. So everyone assumes more subs is just more of what they know. Its not. Its so much different its a whole new ball game. Its so much better you would not believe. Read the reviews. There’s people with every kind of speaker including even ESLs and we all find DBA integrates seamlessly creating a wonderfully integrated enveloping sound field that actually somehow even improves clarity and palpability in the upper registers. As to why the stereo pair cannot do it, its physics. As to the solution, you now have it. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McN2AygDMtQ&t=1128s |
As frequency decreases the work that must be done to maintain flat response increases exponentially. Bigger rooms magnify the task even more. It’s basic physics. In many cases it is the amp that is not up to the task of driving the speakers properly especially in the bass where it must work much harder, without clipping ie distortion. That’s why powered subs and affordable and very compact and efficient high power Class D amps are both the bees knees these days, especially as more people have space and budget considerations and demand smaller more manageable products including speakers. |
And, our hearing sensitivity significantly drops off at lower frequencies. To sound as "loud" as higher ones, bass must be played at higher SPL than almost all woofers and subs are capable of producing (the lone exception being the Eminent Technology TWR-17 Rotary Woofer). I have long found reproduced music to lack the weight and visceral physicality of live. At live shows, we feel the music, not just hear it. It's a full body experience, not merely an aural one. Of course, we have to temper our expectations, as recreating a symphony orchestra in one's living room is "sort of" impractical. |
Millercarbon and Atmasphere said it all much more eloquently than I could. I will only add that getting the bass right is about 30% of the speaker conquest according to dr Toole. Also it’s not very easy even with four subs. One still has to put in some diligence to really get it right. You will need some parametric EQ and some room acoustic even if minimally. But as they said, there is no other way, especially if you want to widen the sweet spot. Good news is, when you do get it right, it’s heaven. There is a wealth of literature on the subject on the Web. Good luck. |
This is why I gave up on subwoofers. First, you're constantly worried about bass levels...all the time...not to mention the optimum placement. And I never liked how my primary amp sounded with them on the same circuit. I probably gave up too soon...but I felt like I was chasing my own tail at times. Anyway, over the years I've developed a 6th sense in handling the room I'm in. That has helped. But right now I have the opposite problem: My Primaluna has a lot of bass slam...it's kinda ridiculous. This is not hyperbole. My speakers are Salk Songtowers with 5" mid-bass drivers and there is no need for a subwoofer. I can't believe how good the bass sounds. Anyway I hope acoustic ceilings come back in fashion. They really do make stereos sound better...no contest. |
Iy is true you need multiple bass transducers like a powered sub to get bass right across a room. However most speakers only can get the the rest right in a single sweet spot so a single sub can serve well for that as well. To get it all right across a large area one needs very wide dispersion or Omni speakers to start with else the solution is not complete. |
Swarm/DBA Duno! might be. I use my monitor sections in a traditional way. 350 hz up planars I use 2 Midbass units that are really the strong point of my system, WCF 12" X 2 per cabinet tuned with a 12" Passive radiator, Their tuned at 40-350hz. I removed a lot of distortion by using and changing phase plug lengths, and profiles. Big speakers cones normally produce a lot of pressure, sound better. problem is, all that surface is a great place to collect bass at the wrong time. 38" the top of the drivers, 8 ft ceiling In a stereo way, become very directional with phase plugs. 4 true sub units, usually only 2 at a time. 2 10", 2 12" all tuned with PR 12" tuned 20 to 40 hz, 10" are 30-60 hz , located 2ft X 3ft from the walls None of the active drivers face each other only the passive. 3.5 cf boxed 140 lb loaded boxes. 70% decoupled from the room 8 active drivers, and 6 passive drivers, all through an Active Crossover 2494 NO DSP correction. Only crossover points. Able but not used. 350 hz down, only a passive XO in the monitor sections, NEVER use the bass sections in the monitors. So total of 6 units, at different heights, but a pair set up as stereo, kinda swarmish, sure sounds good, all class d, (now). There are no tube amps from 350 hz down, only up, and that varies in the summer months. Love class d amps, and tubes though, just crazy good. I also have huge french doors, with heavy curtains, swung open bass goes away, doesn't bounce back into the room A note: I been using servo units, I just can't get use to it. different story. All most finished on some 8" LS MB Narrow, baffle SATs. Phase plugs too. Regards |
well, why is the bass the place manufacturer cuts down? for real bass, you need woofer, big ones (think minimum dual 10 inch or 12 inch woofer). A big woofer need a big box, which drive the price of the cabinet manufacturer up; shipping price is dramatically increase as the weight and size of the box increase. so really, in order to build a "real" speaker that actually can do bass at loud spl, you need to sell that speaker much more pricey then say a 2-way using a 7 inch woofer in a 20L cab vs a 12 inch woofer in a 100L cab. and that is without even mentioning the fact that for it to sound integrated, a 12 or 15 inch woofer generally needs to be integrated in a 3 way system or used with a horn to make that system to work in most cases (Ill keep the bbc ls5/8 out of the conversation) so yeah, real bass drive the price of building a speaker up,up, up. imo, 2-ways with sub cannot compete with a speaker using 12 inch woofers. |
To keep the speakers from boxy coloration when digging deep they have to be constructed much differently than a speaker handing off to a subwoofer. Look at how exotic manufacturers are getting to help control resonances and you can see where a lot of the money goes, bending multiple layers of wood, testing different epoxy, then the volume of sales isn't large enough to make up design and trial costs. I'm not excusing the stupid markup on hi end products, but look at the square boxes we were being offered 20 years ago and compare them to the oval shaped 6 layer... then the metal or ceramic drivers that require mucho amplification and alternative's like 2 way + subs becomes the path of least resistance. |
@daveyf -- Seems like that most speaker manufacturer’s are able to deliver a speaker that can, and mostly does, a reasonable job in the highs and the mids, BUT the bass is where so many fall down! This is also what most manufacturers ask big money for...the more bass capability the higher the asking price. So, we are left with, at least IMHO, most speakers that really cannot produce accurate and extended bass with any real precision. Your thoughts? Why is the bass the place? @steve59 -- To keep the speakers from boxy coloration when digging deep they have to be constructed much differently than a speaker handing off to a subwoofer. Look at how exotic manufacturers are getting to help control resonances and you can see where a lot of the money goes, bending multiple layers of wood, testing different epoxy, then the volume of sales isn't large enough to make up design and trial costs. I'm not excusing the stupid markup on hi end products, but look at the square boxes we were being offered 20 years ago and compare them to the oval shaped 6 layer... then the metal or ceramic drivers that require mucho amplification and alternative's like 2 way + subs becomes the path of least resistance. I thought I'd let both of above quoted posts form the basis of my reply. Money is indeed what's gotten into this, seeing speakers coming anywhere near not merely being full-range, but having overall bass capacity as well. And yet, very few - like, incredibly few of these very expensive speakers have any real bass potency or, well, realness to speak of. These expensive and exotic enclosures with their fancy bracing and layers of what not, I'm sorry to say (that is: no, I'm not actually), hardly amounts to anything substantial in and by itself. Trying to act like information below the Schroeder frequency should be overrun with the refinement tricks offered for the range above it is dodging the requirements of physics big time. But hey, making these expensive and obscenely heavy enclosures aids the sense of exclusivity and the narrative that killing resonances at any cost matters (not that it doesn't to some degree). Let physics have its say; forget about the insanely expensive "full-range" speakers, and instead go subs - DBA or at least dual, go BIG and even horns if you dare, and seek out those who care more about their product in the most unpretentious of ways than the ones knee-deep in their marketing efforts. Not least, be prepared to go the DIY-route as an alternative (i.e.: a very good one), even though we've heard manufacturers and other individuals blabber on about how DIY is just a sorry excuse for the real deal (their deal, of course). DIY IS the real deal where bass goes, as you can seek out excellent designs for free, and make them as big and in the numbers that's required for a fair amount of money. Of course, this is very much a question of mentality; do we buy their marketing and "high-end" B.S. they're eager to shove down out throats, or go the independent route and let physics do the actual talking? |
imo, 2-ways with sub cannot compete with a speaker using 12 inch woofers. Then you do not want to hear this. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This will rock your world. |
millercarbon3,826 posts04-16-2020 1:28pm imo, 2-ways with sub cannot compete with a speaker using 12 inch woofers. What if the 2 way uses a 12"? Then you do not want to hear this. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This will rock your world. millercarbon your running a two way? Am I missing something here? I’m all confused.. Regards |
Regarding multi-source bass reproduction, until I recently had to downsize my music-oriented multi-channel system featured five Thiel 3.5's with equalized bass down to 22hz. No sign of room nodes, and with that many Thiel speakers, no power/sound level limitations even with the loudest of DVD movies. |
hi there, im new to audiogon, and to hifi as well : ) - I think I got lucky my very first time in getting the system to disappear, using a psaudio transport and ds DAC, Cary 300SEi amp, relatively cheap biwires and Larsen 6.2 speakers. My listening space is an undedicated lounge and tv area, open on one side with speakers set up on the long wall, usually closed on the other with timber framed glass folding doors, and with a back wall of a sturdy timber and glass cabinet eleven feet from the front brick wall. The ceiling is nine feet high, my speakers are eight feet apart and my general listening area about eight feet as well. With an amp of 15wpc, biwire cables, and lowish sensitivity speakers, my system shouldn’t work, but it does. Vendors dropping by usually look round for a subwoofer, and tell me the frequencies are well balanced, and the bass is unbelievable for what Is feeding it. I suspect it has to do in part with the ss rectifier output of the amp, and in greater part with the Larsen speakers using the front wall as a resonater, as they are placed barely an inch up against the wall. I don’t turn up my volume past 79db. |
Might be useful to define what I consider to be accurate bass. That is the sound of a bass drum or stand up bass that can be heard in the listeners room with the ability to fool the listener into believing that the ’real un-amplified’ instrument is palatably in the room. At a HiFi show I attended last year, i had a ’conversation’ with a well known speaker designer ( whose speakers are highly colored, IME) about the subject of bass reproduction. The designer was telling all in his room that his speakers were able to plumb the depths in the bass and with absolute accuracy and that this system was producing amazing bass in this room. To my ears, this was absolutely not the case. I felt his speakers were colored and diffuse in the very bottom end and that they were not that far reaching in the bass either. ( the speakers in question were quite pricey). This conversation didn’t sit well with the designer, as he knew that he was asking a lot of money for a product that had to impress in its all-around SQ for its price point. Leaving bass production/reach and accuracy behind would not let him delineate his product from numerous other speakers that were priced considerably less. |
@atmasphere : I fully agree with you that multiple subs are the way to go. They smooth out room response that can not be achieved with EQ. What I disagree with is your comment that 'most rooms have standing waves' and 'bass traps work poorly' All rooms have standing waves regardless of size and shape. Now lets suppose we have a swarm of subs that has been optimally installed in a room and we are now left with a nice smooth response, verified by both ear and measurement. The swarm alone will improve the sound in the room in an unmistakable and impressive way that most people can not conceptualise. But what about the time this nice smooth response takes to decay? If outdoors its a different story, however we are in a room of finite dimensions and if there is nothing in the room to absorb some of this bass there is an effect on the whole spectrum. If the T60 ( the time the sound takes to decay by 60dB) is longer than about 400ms, depending on size of room, then we will hear smearing or congestion obscuring detail. A 'swarm'/ DBA and real bass traps will astonish all but the truly enlightened. I say real bass traps because dinky little pieces of foam do nothing. So to address your comment about bass traps working poorly, well anything poorly designed, implemented or used will be poor. They are however indispensable for optimised sound. The fact is: the best place to position bass drivers in a room is not conducive to creating a believable soundstage or clear images and the best position for imaging etc. is unlikely to be good for bass. So IMHO it is folly to buy hugely expensive monster speakers that can never do it all. Many manufacturers have a speaker range with a model or two below their megabuck flagship that uses the same mid and tweet in a smaller cabinet with smaller bass driver/s. If possible high-pass this model at about 60 to 80Hz for even cleaner performance. Then swarm the room, trap the room, stir well and enjoy |
