Testing Ethernet switch

I have an extremely moderately priced Pakedge Switch that I'll probably never part ways with.  If an individual wants to spent 10K or more on a damned switch, be my quest.  

+1 mgrif104

Anyone, please identify, or even a guess what these " other things carried along " are so they could be investigated.  DC offset? RF?  A ground loop causing client ground noise?  All these should be taken care of by the client. Hans is one of the more reliable You-Tubers with professional audio background, but  his conclusion is subjective.  "Other things" falls under the extraordinary claim category. 

BTW, His description of the digital filtering clipping problem is something everyone should read. Also addressed by RME and Chord among others. 

I saw how someone measured a higher client clock jitter outputting to the DAC.  If this was accurate, the difference was small enough that the temperature of the oscillator module could account for it, it could also mean poor isolation in the client device of the power and grounds. It did not include temperature in the measurement.  They did not show if this delta was within the specs of the oscillator. As these were not in ovens, the numbers the suggested  jitter was well within the design limits I am familiar with though parts have gotten better since I was in the lab. 

The transport layer's job is to move bits from host memory to client memory.  After that, all kinds of things can happen.   GOOGLE the IP stack for more information. 

All things physical that are measurable are not audible.

All things physical that are audible we don't always measure.

Sound and hearing are not the same. Sound is real. Hearing is a combination of sound our ears pick up and our subconscious combined. It is not objective. Not in humans. You may very well hear something and no one can tell you if you do or not, but it does not mean it was physical sound. 

Progress can be made only if  we rely on science rather than magic. 

All things physical that are measurable are not audible.

All things physical that are audible we don't always measure.

Sound and hearing are not the same. Sound is real. Hearing is a combination of sound our ears pick up and our subconscious combined. It is not objective. Not in humans. You may very well hear something and no one can tell you if you do or not, but it does not mean it was physical sound. 

It's statements like these that give sane members here pause. Your reliance on an insanity defense (accusation?) is really getting old. It makes one wonder just how familiar you are with it.

All the best,
Nonoise

nonoise,

What do you find as a factual fault with my statements?  So far, only opinions have been expressed along with less that forum cordial comments.   If I have made a factual error, please enlighten me. I try to learn something every day. 

If you find my comments old, you are free not to read them. As you seem to believe otherwise and rather than discuss where we disagree, you attack my comments with no supporting facts.  I am not going to change your viewpoint and don't care.  This thread was to help members who may not understand Ethernet not be taken for a ride.  Refer to my opening sentence in the thread or provide factual evidence where I am in error. 

I have made NO insanity defense.  Please do not make up things I have not said.  I This is not insanity, just part of what makes us human.   It would be a rather dull world if we were all perfectly objective. In anything. We aren't.

I don't know if they teach this in school any more, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion

If you want to stay only in the audio side, there are quite a few books on psychoacoustics. Search Amazon. 

I find it hilarious when people who have 0 knowledge about a topic attack people with knowledge. You can’t argue any thing about how it actually works, just what you “hear”. 
 

but facts remain, about 50% of people who don’t know anything about Ethernet, TCP/IP and streaming can “hear” a difference, while 50% cannot as evidenced by this thread and many others, and 100% of people with knowledge of the topic hear no difference.

This is what a randomized control trial would call placebo effect.

You two bozos, aka clowns seem to ignore facts and keep pushing your own crazy off the wall narrative.  You two have nothing better?  Is it a burning jealousy that you can’t hear or can’t afford a good stereo?  Do you two pick on videophiles as well telling them they only think they see a better picture?  How about RC hobbyists?  What kind of faults do you find with them, I wonder  

Keep it up.  Very entertaining.

I picture you two standing in the rain getting soaked arguing umbrellas are a fabrication for the gullible thinking they are staying dry  

Clowns:  people who pose as experts but lack credentials such as certifications and publications in appropriate technical journals.

fredrik222

... but facts remain ... 100% of people with knowledge of the topic hear no difference. This is what a randomized control trial would call placebo effect.

You may well be correct. If none of those subjects heard a difference, it's possible that their expectation that there would be no difference biased their observations.

Fabricated statistics- another clown move.

Still no identification of either factual errors on my part or what the mystery "other things" may be. 

A psychiatrist might be a better fit for your discussion.  Psychobabble, by Alan Parsons Project.

Match made at ASR Freddy and the Geek. 

More snide remarks. No identification or properties. 

@tonywinga you have no relevant experience or knowledge, yet you have the arrogance to argue facts about a topic you have demonstrated over and over again is far far beyond your comprehension, and then call me a clown. It is absolutely hilarious.

i have a civil engineering degree in computer communications, I have numerous certifications from Cisco, Juniper and many others, at the Expert level, and I have worked with computer networks all over the world for almost 25 years. 

@mgrif104  Hans just regurgitates the debunked white paper by John Swenson. 
unless you buy counterfeit crap from second hand Chinese markers, noise is not a factor in Ethernet, especially not in residential applications. 

For starters, Ethernet is balanced, so common mode noise rejection is by default, which remove the noise below 1000MHz. That is just one of the noise rejection methods and does not include error correction.

another point, modern Ethernet is a point to point connection, it is terminated between each connection and the signal is read and recreated for every hop along the chain. So no noise can travel beyond any connection point.

@cleeds  per usual, selective quoting and citing of reference materials to highlight something that isn’t there. But at least you admit I am correct. 

@tonywinga  here is an article from an industry source:

https://arstechnica.com/staff/2015/02/to-the-audiophile-this-10000-ethernet-cable-apparently-makes-sense/

Yawn, freddy, yawn. 

@jeffrey125 yeah, actually gaining knowledge is tedious, the majority here never bothered with learning anything about anything. That is very apparent.

As Hans has pointed out and many others with ehternet it boils down to Filters. Also is is not just 1's, and 0's  with audio. If people want to spend their money on cables, switches and the like, let them, who are you to tell them otherwise. 

Caped Crusaders? 

Read up and listen, you decide. 

https://youtu.be/ZCFvIzzMqfk?si=xb5AOj70CGjfxCzd

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2023/03/10/silent-angel-bonn-n8-pro-network-switch-review/

https://darko.audio/2023/10/podcast-10-hi-fi-myths-busted-w-peter-comeau/

3. Digital is just ones and zeroes and is impervious to interference

 https://darko.audio/2023/01/podcast-43-is-vinyl-really-outselling-cds-do-audiophile-network-switches-really-sound-better/

@fredrik222 no they just tire of your one dimensionality and obsession with this subject. I personally could care less and just enjoy razzing you two monkeys.  You two are a broken record. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. Betting niether of you tow have a sound system that would reveal the sonic differnces in cables or filtration. I know that to be true of the OP. 

yeah, actually gaining knowledge is tedious, the majority here never bothered with learning anything about anything. That is very apparent.

Dear Freddy, you are mistaken. I am not arguing your facts. I am arguing that your facts and statistics are not substantiated with reference to sources. Neither you nor the Geek have demonstrated expert status, ie. Membership in professional societies, nor any reference to serving on committees in professional societies that create specifications and standards for telecommunications equipment nor reference to any published technical papers. You nor the Geek have not referenced or demonstrated the ability to design and develop telecommunications equipment.  A certificate from a manufacturer does not qualify you as an expert.  That qualifies you to install their equipment. Therefore, you have an opinion, just like me. To assert anything more than that is misleading. Go back to my definition of a clown.

fredrik222

... the majority here never bothered with learning anything about anything ...

And yet many of us have been leading happy and successful lives for years without the benefit of your instruction and guidance. How do you account for that discrepancy?

Perhaps you are just full of yourself.

@jeffrey125  you are talking about your system, right? Mine is certainly far more resolving that yours, and while it doesn’t matter always, but seems at least 10x more expensive than yours. 

@tonywinga  again, you have no relevant experience at all. So, a clown is a clown, by your own definition, you have nothing to back up your claims and you cannot argue anything that I post. Simply put, you are not relevant in a discussion regarding computer networks. 

@cleeds  the ignorant don’t know better.

Dear Freddy, of course I have relevant experience. Again, you ignore anything that doesn’t fit your narrative.
You should get a pony for your clown act.

You see, I’m the one with a high end stereo and an audio grade network switch that improves the sound of streaming- real world experience.

Your the one with no stereo with an audio grade network switch and so no experience and no knowledge- just an opinion based on speculation.

@tonywinga  again, you are not relevant. You may spend money foolishly, but that doesn’t make you relevant. 
and again, a clown is a clown, and by your own definition, you are definitely a clown. You have never posted anything supporting your point, mainly because there is nothing available. 

@jeffrey125 good riddance, 20k DAC with 5k speakers and 2k amplifier and “I’m done” as a comment really shows that you have nothing to contribute.

Dear Freddy, say what you like.  I owned you in my last post. 

What a fascinating discussion with a very predictable arc. You can't hear a difference. No, I can hear a difference. You can't hear a difference because my science says you can't hear a difference. No, I can hear a difference because my science is better. You can't hear a difference because I have more certifications. No I can hear a difference because my certifications are better. Well, you can't hear a difference because my system is better than yours. No, you can hear a difference because my system cost more money than yours which is the ultimate measure of knowledge. Only one step away from the natural conclusion of all such comparisons. I appreciate the passionate views, and it is entertaining
 

One solution might be for those who believe they can hear a difference to invest their money in audiophile switches, and those who believe you cannot hear a difference to do the opposite

Otherwise, it seems unlikely that will we will reach consensus 

not expecting any Perry Mason moments here 

@jeffrey125 lol, you do not own anything, anybody who even says a thing like that is just a big L in life. 
 

your speakers are 5k new, and while I have never heard them, they seem ok-ish in the lo-fi range, certainly not punching up to mid-fi. 

@tonywinga owned me? lol, by your own definition you are a clown. 🤡

Post a supporting article that shows that the author has any resemblance of expertise. You cannot. 

Totaly Clueless @fredrik222 Yep owned again and agin fly away Robin. Lot's of stuff you have never heard including a good DAC. Such a maroon. 

Enjoy Boy Wonder. Have music to listen to. 

@jeffrey125  your speakers are not good. So if you think you have a resolving system, you are truly a lost cause.

at least tonywinga has a good system, I have heard those speakers, and while i don’t want them, they are good. Better than mine. Yours are light years behind mine. But keep on trucking thinking your speakers are resolving. Big L In life is going nowhere. 

82% of internet statistics are made up, including a lot in this thread.

Jerry

@jeffrey125  low end speakers are low end speakers, but I am always interested in hearing new systems. But going back to your comments on resolving, yours is not a resolving systems, sure expensive DAC, but your speakers are holding your system back. And going after others saying they don’t have a system that resolves enough when your own systems can’t resolve at all, is hilariously hypocritical.
 

And it doesn’t change anything, “audiophile” Ethernet products are snake oil and nothing more, as evidenced by OPs link in the first post. 

Does anybody think anything useful can come out of these puerile exchanges?  All they do is shut down a useful thread. Think before you type!

Freddy, Freddy, Freddy.  You have succumbed to your emotions by shouting “Snake Oil” (same as your cohort, the Geek) which means that you have lost the technical argument.  “Snake Oil” is a meaningless term, an emotional term used to sling mud at someone or something when out of exasperation you cannot think of anything else reasonable to say.

And before you go there:  Clown is a technical term and I defined it as such.  You keep calling me a clown but by definition, I am not.  Ok, maybe I am but I still have great sounding streamed music and TV picture.

All good @fredrik222 think what you like. We love the Sonners and we are happy they sound perfect in our room. Synergy is the key and you will never find that in the specsheets.

Bye bye boy wonder.

@tonywinga, Amir Majidimehr (toxic dude going back a long time), founder of ASR has gotten banned from almost every forum he had accounts with. It would be safe to assume that he has been back/exists on the same forums now with different hidey accounts.

Him or other dudes indoctrinated by him are not worth a blood pressure pill.

Amir believes classical measurements are the end all. He does not even want to discuss the points made by the lead engineer who designed his test equipment that these classical measures are incomplete. His measurements are well done and can provide some insight as a starting point. He does not believe in magic, and for the topic of this thread, he does understand what an Ethernet switch is. He is a degreed engineer BTW. 

Again, if anyone has ANY idea on what these "other" factors carried along are, please speak up. Being offensive  is not a valid argument and neither is accursing someone of deception. 

True colors. Batman and Robin. 

The Geek is like a man standing outside a fine restaurant staring through the window at the people inside enjoying their meals.  He won’t go in.  Instead he stands at the door asking everyone going in or out if they know the recipes and the ingredients of the food served there.  Of course, they would look at him with incredulity and say the food is excellent, who cares about the recipes.  If I want a good meal I will come here to eat.

An excerpt from JB’s memoir’s.  “I remember as a young man working with my good buddy Al Gore to invent the internet.  I said to him, you know, one day people are going to stream music on this internet thing we are inventing.  So we need to get this right.”

C’mon man.  We are mostly Audio Applications Specialists, AAS’s on these forums, not telecommunications equipment designers.  You are on the wrong forum if you are looking for design details of the equipment.  Should have figured that out by now.  Just get yourself a decent audio grade network switch and some good quality ethernet cables and enjoy the music.  The proof is in the pudding- not how it was made.

 I agree totally, this forum is audio applications and most are not coms people, but we use coms and as I am one, ( yea, and I too have a stack of classes and certifications) I was trying to help those who are not.  If you don't want that help, fine, don't read my posts. How it's made does define how it works.   

For your analogy, food is good because the recipe and ingredients are good. Not because some reviewer says so. Electronics are the same. 

Disparaging members does not help anybody. A couple members can't help themselves. Your posts are usually far above that. 

I appreciate that.  Most everyone here loves music and loves hifi.  They want to know what is good and what doesn’t work so well.  The hard spots come sometimes because of the wide cross section of people with various years of experience, listening skills and technical understanding that participate on these forums.  The gaps can cause friction.  Some here can afford top end gear while others can only wish for some gear that is less than 25 years old.  Some here have high level technical skills while others know just enough to turn their system on.  We all need to be mindful of these differences and remember that everyone’s goal here is good hifi.

I stepped into hifi as a DYI’er in the late 80s with sound per dollar as the top goal.  I slowly transitioned into higher end hifi over the years to doing an almost no holds barred upgrade to my system a few years ago.  (That was after someone told me that I can’t take it with me).  I got tickets to CES in Chicago in 1989.  That was one of the best days of my life.  (Second to my wedding day, of course.  I’m sticking to that).  Spent the day at the hotel across the street seeing and hearing all of the hifi gear.  My buddy and I snickering at all of the expensive “hifi” cables.  We thought it was crazy at the time.  Look at me now.