Tekton Double Impacts

@sekollera  Go with the 4ohm DIs.  In other words, follow Kenny! : )

I had the same 4ohm/8ohm question, but my amplifiers (Charles' Coincident Frankensteins) only have an 8 ohm tap... any thoughts would be appreciated.

I would hold out for the Ulf Maxi
3 tweeter arrays, 2 16in bass drivers and 8 6in mid bass.
Sure, I made all that up, but Eric won't be outdone. It's probably on the drawing board! :-)

@cal3713  Perhaps our local to this thread Frankenstein expert can offer his expert opinion? I think I can hear the keyboard strikes.....  : )

Nice one Vito! Love it! 

cal3713,

I know in the past I have used and preferred the 8ohm taps from other amps with other than Tekton speakers with good results.

I have no experience with the franks and I haven't used a tube amp with my 4ohm DI's other than my Zotl40 and that's not a issue.
You may want to call Israel at Coincident and ask his opinion.

Charles may now too.

Kenny.

Vitop,

I love it but I had the same thought when we all first saw the first picture on Tekton's website.

That would bring the sensitivity up to the Khorn level but would sound much much better.

Kenny.

They would need 2 18 inch woofers and not 16inch though.

Sounds like the 1812 of Ulfberhts........you guys might be onto something here! I'll need to start building an auditorium. I say lets go all out with two 18" woofers, two 12", four 6" and four tweeter arrays. Sensitivity of 104 or so, sounds like a winner to me but I'll have to settle for the mini Ulfberhts........poor, poor me :)

The 18in drivers are being reserved for the 4 tweeter array Ulf Supra. And there will be 4 of them. To balance out the tweeter arrays.

LOL Mac, yes... the mini Ulf will do nicely for me also. The perfect size for my space.

vitop,

Goodness,
You have one heck of a Imagination but I love it.

Does anybody know when the Mini's may start shipping.


Kenny.

@kdude66   Kenny, Minis keep resurfacing. Originally firmly in fashion in the 1960s. They have shown up from time to time. Mid late 80s through the early 90s. Then again around '03 '04.  Based on history, a reappearance is likely, though when is a good question. All bets are off, if part of the gyaru subculture...though Utah isn't considered a hotspot.

I had the 8 vs 4 ohm discussion with Eric very early on. Eric does not like to build 8 ohm speakers. He thinks it's old technology and it subverts all his efforts to make the speakers as efficient as possible, if I remember the conversation correctly. He turned me away from that idea very quickly.

Hello Cal 37 13 and Adam,
Ordinarily I’d suggest choosing the higher speaker impedance if that’s an offered option. Ralph (Atmasphere) has pointed out numerous times that in addition to an easier load for the amplifier there’s less distortion produced driving the higher impedance.

It appears that the Double Impacts are an exceptionally easy load despite their 4 ohm impedance (probably relatively flat impedance curve and no steep phase angles). Cal I suspect that the Frankenstein’s 8 ohm tap would likely be sucessful driving the 4 ohm Double Impacts.

A phone call or email to Israel Blume sure wouldn’t hurt.
Charles

And my DIs match my car too. Ford Black.

Adam,
I relate to your 300b vs el 34 amplifier and preferring the 300b. 
I have an el 34 40 watt amplifier and a 100 watt PP amplifier  (60 watt  Triode mode). I am currently listening to a First Watt S.I.T.amplifier (40 watt push pull special D.I.Y.  design of Nelson Pass ). Perhaps the best solid state amplifier I've heard (generous loan from an audiogon buddy 😊).

Yet in direct comparison the 300b SET is more natural in tone and timbre, more 3 dimensional,  lively and just has that elusive "breath of life " quality that the excellent First Watt can't match. Bottom line,  the First Watt is overall a sonically  impressive amplifier,  the SET conveys more emotion and soul. 
Charles 

Anyone has pictures of what a mini Ulf looks like?

Looks like a Bose 901 :))

Some mysterious stranger has posted a video of their Ulfberhts on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-nG55_gf_U

Jeffrey: I thought they'd sound better than they did. It sounded a lot like the sound coming out those little speakers on the back of a cheap monitor.   oh... wait... never mind. I'm sure they'll sound better when I hook a pair of Ulfs to my computer.

Does anybody know when the Mini's may start shipping.


Kenny.

Kenny, "may" is the keyword here, being the 5th month of the year, as in May 2018.

Jeffrey: I see why you went with the full size Ulfs. Next to your cabinet, they do not overwhelm the room. They don't look like the large speakers that they are in that setting. It works out well, IMO

Cal3713, I agree with Charles that it seems evident that the 4 ohm DI impedance is a particularly benign one, with relatively little variation over the frequency range compared to most 4 ohm speakers, and little if any in the way of challenging phase angles.

However two things can be said with a fair amount of certainty: Running the 8 ohm taps of your Franks into the 4 ohm impedance of that version of the speaker will significantly reduce the power capability of the amp, and will result in some degree of degradation of its distortion performance. And there certainly could be other sonic consequences as well.

Personally, I don’t like the idea of introducing a known and likely significant compromise into the configuration of a system, on top of all of the unknown and unpredictable tradeoffs, compromises, and effects that are inevitably present in a system. And in a hobby where many concern themselves with things that are likely to be far less significant, even things like which way a fuse is oriented.

Without a strong endorsement of the idea from Mr. Blume I would not even consider it. At least without the opportunity for an **extended** audition, and I would be hesitant to invest the time that would require given my suspicion that the result would stand a good chance of being negative.

Best of luck, however you decide to proceed.

Best regards,
-- Al

@333jeffery  Thanks for sharing.

@almarg   Wonderful post. Thanks. Very informative. 

Hi Cal 37 13,
1 Al as is par for the course raises legitimate concerns.
2 As several of us have suggested see what Israel thinks about this potential amp and speaker pairing.
3 I’d also seek feedback from Eric, is this a good match or would he recommend the Double Impact 8 ohm version?
4 As I wrote earlier the Double Impacts "may" be an exception in this scenario.
If you decide to talk to Israel and Eric let us know what they suggest.
The Coincident Frankenstein switched to 4 and 8 ohm speaker taps a few years ago.
You and I have the earlier (original) 8 and 16 ohm tap model.
Charles

I officially hate the double impacts! I can't get nothing done anymore! I just listen 👂 like a crackhead all day at home 🏡.  I'm drawn to them like a flies to a bug 🐛 zapper.  #1stWorldProblems 😂 

jcarcopo,
I'm the same way with my Impact Monitors; I'm going through my whole
CD collection, everything sounds different and usually better-

pawsman

It's always super cool to hear when people love their DIs.

Eric certainly has special products.

Pawsman, 
I'm in good company then! 

Evolvist,
Big ditto buddy! 

Jcarcopo

@sbayne

Do the Rothwell attenuators alter the sound signal. I suspect they must. Any experienced there?

Porscheracer, some people have reported that using Rothwell attenuators has resulted in adverse sonic effects such as a reduction in perceived dynamics.  Others have reported excellent results with them.  I am in the latter group, having used the unbalanced 10 db version for several years, a few years ago.  (My present system configuration doesn't require them).

I suspect that a major factor in the disparities among these reports is the impedances of the components they are being used with.  The worst case scenario figures to be an output impedance of the component providing the signal to them that is high and also varies significantly as a function of frequency, together with an input impedance of the component they are providing a signal to that is low.

Regards,
-- Al

P.S:  David_Ten, thanks for the nice comment. 

Is there anyone in Tennessee, or even reasonable distance from the Nashville area,  that has these DI speakers? Love to hear them.....

@almarg 

The output impedance of my preamp in tube gain mode SE is 210 ohms. Is that considered high?

The output impedance of my preamp in tube gain mode SE is 210 ohms. Is that considered high?

No, not in itself. However the majority of tube preamps have a coupling capacitor in series with their outputs, which in some cases can cause their output impedance to rise from relatively low values at the mid-range frequency the spec is usually based on (e.g., 1 kHz), to as much as 3K or 4K in the deep bass region. (The impedance of a capacitor increases as frequency decreases).  And in many circumstances that **variation** in output impedance can be more of an issue than the 3K or 4K value itself.

I couldn’t find relevant published measurements on the Freya, so it would probably be a good idea to ask the manufacturer what its output impedance in tube gain mode is at 20 Hz.

Regards,
-- Al

porscheracer - "Do the Rothwell attenuators alter the sound signal. I suspect they must. Any experienced there?"

No negative impact on the sound that I could detect. Rothwell's website is quite good explaining how they work.  I bought mine awhile ago but I think they are around $50 so not a huge expense either. 

@333Jeffery  - My oh my, your video is getting around! :-)

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?22616-Tekton-Design-Double-Impact-Reference-Loudspeaker... 

I noticed that...wow, your Ulfs aren't that far away from the front walls. Can that even be a foot behind your speakers? What's more, really no space to speak of the side walls, either.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme, that the Tekton speakers don't necessarily need that much room to breath, or shine. I've seen it myself at Raven Audio and Bullitt's house.

Terry, on the other hand has his Ulfs really far from the front and side walls.

When I spoke to Eric he said maybe a foot from the front and side walls, and said that he wouldn't make a claim that any more distance would do much good. I imagine, like any speaker, that the placing is going to be room dependent, yet I still wonder that what if @teajay placed his Ulfs very close to the front and side walls as a part of his review, he might answer some questions for those people who are thinking about buying Tekton, but they wonder if the larger models are too large.

Like teajay I found the DI's to sound best out into the room. Having said that they still sound very good close to the back or side walls. I found the same went for the Enzo's. It's more surprising with the DI's though as they are rear ported and I assume the Ulfberhts are also. Great sounding speakers that aren't fussy about placement.......gotta luv it. 

@mac48025 - Hmmmm...curious. You know, I can't remember exactly what Eric said, but he said that the ports on the back of his speakers don't act as usual ports. I'm not sure what that was about, but maybe @tektondesign design can talk a little bit about that. Because, as is, they seem to exhibit characteristics of full range single drivers that I've played with, inasmuch as sure, they sound better out in the room, but you can get them pretty darn close to the wall. I mean, it can't be magick. There has to be some science behind it. 

At any rate, I'm committing myself to at least learning the basics of the Sumiko method of speaker placement, because it should work in any room, to let the speaker/room pressure paradigm play itself out in a natural way.Then add room correction and/or treatment as needed...*if* needed!

The only speakers I have in-house as the moment are Dynaudio 340s, so if I play around with them an the Sumkio method and come out aces, with better SQ, I would imagine the mini-Ulfs would work much better, whether the room dictates a few inches or a few feet.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0 

Please note this is not a personal attack on Jeffery just a strong comment on his setup of his Ulf's:

Are you freaking serious!  I would not setup an inexpensive pair of speakers the way this 12K world class speaker is placed in this room.  Any rear ported speaker should at least be, if possible around two feet off the front wall, otherwise you muddy up the bass big time.  By having the inner front edge of the Ulf's parallel to the cabinet would totally negate the speakers ability to develop center fill and a deep soundstaging.  They also are quite close to the side walls/corners that would create early disruptive reflections and again interfere with overall clarity, imaging and lead to a booming/muddy bass response.

Certainly, there are speaker designs that are designed to be placed right on the front wall to develop their soundstages, but the Ulf's is not one of them.  I have heard the DI's setup in a very similar fashion and found that their performance was tremendously effected negatively in that system.

Without using room treatments the closest I would place the DI's or Ulf's to the front wall would be, if possible, at least two and a half feet, and from the side walls at least the same distance.  I'm very lucky in that I have a special acoustic space both in size and how much wood is used throughout the room which leads to a very natural acoustic environment for any speaker I review.  It saddens me that this proud owner of these very special speakers will not really hear the magic of what the Ulf's can do if placed in the correct position in the right sized room.

It's like putting a world class racing horse in a kiddy corral dooming him never to run free at his total potential /speed.     

Pawsman and JC,  I thought it was just me...

Wow Jeffery with a setup like that you can claim the Ulf's are 25 to 30 % better than the DI's. I strongly think not.

Just constructive criticism not meant to be a personal attack.


Kenny.

My single biggest audio epiphany was many years ago when I purchased a pair of speakers from a non-mainstream individual who suggested the speakers be placed WAY out into the room.  Prior to that I always felt they looked so tidy up against the front wall and that in fact if you wanted any bass you had to do that.

I'll never forget that moment.  That open, airy, huge sound stage changed me forever.  Not sure if I ever made it to dinner that night.

weird.

"When I spoke to Eric he said maybe a foot from the front and side walls, and said that he wouldn't make a claim that any more distance would do much good. "
That re-enforces what Eric told me. Since I have the Ulfs on order, I'm hoping Eric is correct about his product placement. The DIs certainly seem to work well where I have them. Which is close to the wall and about a foot from a bass trapped corner. Especially the sound stage. When evolvist was here, the staging was strong enough where he actually got out of the chair and put his ear to my center channel to be sure it wasn't on. I assured him I wasn't cheating!

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