Tekton Double Impacts

I'll trade you my Yggdrasil for your Directstream...

First post here....

I ordered a pair of the Double Impacts (4 Ω) last week. I went with the standard black soft gloss finish and the $300 internal upgrade.

My plan is to drive them with either one Schiit Audio Vidar amp in stereo mode or two Vidar amps in monoblock mode. These amps are rated at 100 watts per channel at 8 Ω and 200 watts per channel at 4 Ω. In monoblock mode, it is 400 watts at 8 Ω. Vidar will not be rated at 4 Ω in monoblock mode.

I am using a Schiit Audio Freya preamp using the tube mode. My DAC is the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil.

@kdude66 : the Vidar amp is not released yet...probably early next week. The power specs were given out by the designer so I am confident they are accurate. The designer did say the amp is rated conservatively.

@david_ten : I race an air-cooled 911. It’s an 87 Turbo chassis with wide 993 bodywork with a normally aspirated 3.6L engine.

I can’t wait to get the Vidar amps and DI speakers. I ordered the speakers over a week ago and have heard nothing since then. That concerns me a bit. I guess getting the internal upgrade and holes for the speaker grills added complicates the process.

No!! Vidar is an amp only thank goodness!!!

@david_ten

I will be using an Yggdrasil DAC, a Freya preamp, and Vidar amps to go along with DI speakers. If I am using two Vidar amps, I will be running balanced differential interconnects from DAC to amps.

My speakers are suppose to ship at the end of the week. This a week late, but I don't have the amps yet so it is no big deal.

Scott

@david_ten 

I had been out of high end audio for 30 years when I decided I wanted to get better sound out of my nearfield computer workstation setup. I enjoyed the setup so much that I knew it was time to setup a nice 2 channel setup in my little used Library. I didn't want to spend more than $10K on the whole setup including speakers, headphones, and headphone amplifier. I could afford more, but I wanted to have that limit.

$10K is not a lot when you want quality equipment and great sound. I
knew I would need to find high value equipment if I wanted great sound. Fortunately, I had some friends with some nicer high end equipment against which I would have a chance to evaluate and compare my more budget minded choices.

It became clear early on that Schiit Audio was a company that made a lot of high value products. An example? I had a chance to compare a friend's Yggdrasil to a friend's Chord Dave and another friend's PS Audio DirectStream. I won't get into specifics, but Yggdrasil held its own very well against the Dave and was a bit better than the DirectStream. Especially with the Red Book content I listen to 99% of the time. I found that Schiit's tope of line preamp, the Freya, sounded great yet was priced far lower than comparable sounding preamps. I bought a Mjolnir 2 because it pair well with the headphones I like and, again, it performed as well as much more expensive equipment. I am planning on buy two Schiit Vidar amps. This is on faith. Monoblock amps that have the same features cost MUCH more. I have confidence that these amps will sound great too.

The TektonDesign Double Impact speakers are another example of a high value product. These speakers, combined with the Schiit audio equipment I have listed above, should provide me with a fantastic sounding 2 channel setup, for under $10K, that sounds as good or better than setups costing two to three times as much or more.

I'll have a pretty good idea by the end of next week!

@david_ten 

I've had my Yggdrasil since late February and Freya since mid May. I have a real nice selection of 6SN7 tubes for Freya. The only new components will be the two Vidar amps. I use Pangea XLR interconnects to connect everything and Mogami 3103 speaker cable.

Currently, I am using my MacBook Pro as an audio source. USB sucks so I use a Singxer F-1 DDC to feed the Yggdrasil via S/PDIF coax. The sound improvement is quite noticeable.  Soon I will be getting Ethernet->AES/EBU Roon endpoint which will cut out USB altogether.

@mac48025

I have a heard time believing that 10 watts, much less 1 watt, is enough to properly drive the Double Impact speakers. Plus, I have no desire to spend $3K or more on a stereo amp with just 10 watts.

@david_ten 

The best setup I found to feeding Yggy via USB was using a UpTone Audio ISO Regen/USPCB/LPS 1 combo going to the Singxer F-1 then to Yggy using a 1.5m coax OFC cable. That sounded fantastic.

The LAN to AES solution should be announced in the next couple of weeks. I can't talk about it much yet but the price is VERY reasonable!

I can't wait to get the speakers and the amps!! Otherwise I am ready to go!

What about dynamic range and headroom? I have always found low power setups, even great low power setups, to sound a little flat when driving large speakers...even very efficient large speakers. This has been especially true with some classical recordings. I have also noticed clipping, even with tube amps, that I didn't hear with higher power amps.

Just because 1 watts seems to work doesn't mean it is "best". I don't see how you can say that 51 watts is overkill. From a physics standpoint, this makes no sense.

Let's get back to reality:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/04/03/speaker-sensitivity-dynamic-range-and-amplifier-output/

I am not saying anything about my requirements room size or amplifier choice. The physics part is that it takes power to move the voice coils in the various drivers. Even if you listen at low volume levels.

Look at section 2 here:

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm

To quote:

"To reproduce a signal with a 10dB crest factor cleanly (without clipping distortion) means that if your average level requires 10W, the peaks will need 100W - a 100W (minimum) amplifier is needed to get 10W of clean undistorted average electrical energy."

That's the physics part!

1 watt does generate volume...but simple physics tells us it is impossible from 1 watt to reproduce music in the best possible way. It has no choice but to sound flat compared to more appropriate power levels for the speakers. This is especially true with music recorded with more dynamic range.

Has anyone compared the stock Double Impact setup to the $300 upgrade version? I was just curious if anyone heard a difference. I ordered the $300 upgrade......

What I am posting about has nothing to do with the "sound" of an amplifier. That is different than the power of an amplifier and what is considered "clean" power.

Let’s assume for a minute that the 1 watt is enough to drive the DI speakers with no clipping distortion. That means that they are only using .1 watts at their average level. Are you ready to go there? .1 watts???

This is when I start to worry about what people are reporting and have a hard time believing it. IF a 1 watt amp is working well for someone with these speakers, either the music has no dynamic range or their ears aren’t hearing the clipping. Or, they listen at whisper sound levels. Yes, tube amps do usually clip much less obtrusively than solid state. But there are limits......

I am not saying you need 400 watts per channel. But 1 watt, on paper when you do the math, comes up on the wrong side of what is enough power.

I don’t even have my speakers yet. They should be here on Tuesday or Wednesday. I will have two Vidar amps ready to test. I will try them in a monoblock setup that has 400 watts a channel at 8 Ohms (not rated at 4 Ohms) and with a single Vidar at 200 watts per channel at 4 Ohms. One Vidar has more than enough power but I like the advantages you get in monoblock mode. When using one Vidar you have to use SE inputs while in monoblock mode you use XLR inputs.

Schiit Audio Freya is a nice tube preamp with gain. It also has a passive mode and a JFET mode. Check it out. I love mine.

Well, I didn’t even bother unpacking the second Vidar and sent it back to Schiit. 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms is WAY MORE than enough power. Especially when you factor in the gain from using the tube stage with Freya.

Vidar is dual mono back to the transformer. Power used by one channel does not affect power used by the other. So there really is no significant advantage to running two Vidar amps other than it is cool. The downsides to running two Vidar amps include more tube noise and less granularity in the volume control.

These speakers sound great and I haven’t even played around with room placement or toe-in yet. I can’t wait to hear how good they sound after 200 hours and I get them placed properly.

How much toe-in are you guys using?

What thread size and pitch are the threads for the speaker feet? I plan on buy some Herbie Gliders here soon.

I tried to search through this thread and could not find the specifics. I am sure they are there...I must have missed them.

Thanks!

Thanks, @david_ten 

Eric doesn’t publish anything but this for the DI speakers:

20Hz-30kHz frequency response
±1dB deviation from 70Hz-20kHz

Personally, I would like to know what the ± is for 20Hz. I suspect it is more than -3dB.

Based on that, you would not want the crossover frequency to be higher than 70Hz and probably a lot lower. I would not crossover at all and just add a single subwoofer. Then see how that sounds.

Here is what my room SPL graph looks like:


http://winders.com/Audio/room.jpeg

Here is a view from the left back wall:

http://winders.com/Audio/setup.jpg

Here is the my rack*:

http://winders.com/Audio/rack.jpg

*No comments from the peanut gallery.....

Yeah, the Schiit stuff aren't the best components out there, but they are the best value I could find in the price range I was comfortable with. The same goes for the DI speakers. Which, by the way, are now sounding incredible. I installed a new amp, new speaker wire (Mogami 3103), and new speakers all at the same time so I am not sure which needed to burn in or if all did. But with 100 hours or so on the new stuff, I am getting the sound I hoped I could get!

Thanks, All!

Yeah, there are actually 3 bikes over by that wall right now. Those will be moving soon...as will all the boxes and crap in the room behind the speakers. 

Another 150 hours, huh? Okay....

@grannyring 

What speaker wire do you like? I am using Mogami 3103 in my setup. I am not noticing any negatives with it but I have not tried other speaker wire.

Thanks,

Scott

How did you mod the crossovers and what were the differences you heard?

Has anyone tried a Pioneer M-22 class A amp with the DI's? 30 watts of dual mono pure class A power should sound great!

@kdude66

Unless there is a Threshold amp I am unaware of, I am not prepared to spend $4K to $6K on an amp. Which Threshold do you like?

@kdude66 

What sound level do you think I can get out of the First Watt F7? I listen to Classical, older Red Book content, as well as the more compressed current Red Book content. I think my average sound level is about 85dB with current Red Book content. Sometimes I will bump that up to 90dB to 93dB for some tracks.

I can pick up as "demo" F7 from Reno HiFi for about 20% off of retail. They will let me demo the F7 for 10 days and send it back if I don't like it. Is that a good deal?

Thanks!

@kdude66

I have several different sets of 1940’s and 1950’s NOS tubes that I am using with Freya. I am using the tube gain mode with Vidar because I prefer the sound with the tubes. But, I am not happy with the audible hum from the speakers. I suspect if Vidar had 16dB or so of gain, we wouldn’t being having this conversation.

Not knowing any better, I am very happy with the sound that I am getting from Vidar. Push comes to shove, I can certainly live with the hum as it is very difficult/impossible to hear once I sit down and listen to music. This is due to the fact that my brain adjusts to the higher sound pressure levels and the hum is below the threshold of hearing at that point. If I just sit in the silent room, I can hear the hum faintly from my listening position. But it sounds like dead quiet when music briefly stops.

But, this gives me a chance to listen to some other amps and figure out if there are better options out there that I choose to afford.

@klh007 

Thank you for the suggestion.

The hum isn't power related. At least I don't think it is. I have a 2.5kVA Topaz .0005pF isolation transformer (146dB of common mode noise reduction) wired up in balanced power mode (good for another 20dB of common mode noise reduction) that all the audio devices are plugged into. Power should be very clean.

The Topaz setup cost me $200 and is by far and away the single best investment I have made in sound quality.

Anyway, I am pretty sure the hum is gain related. My preamp has 14dB of gain in tube mode and the amp has 27dB. That's a lot of gain for speakers as efficient as the Double Impact. If I put the preamp into passive or JFET mode with 0dB gain, the hum gets quieter but it is still there. If I unplug the RCA cables from the amp, it's gets a tiny bit quieter.

This mirrors what the preamp and amp designer said would happen with high efficiency speakers.

The First Watt F7 has 14dB of gain so I would be cutting 13dB. About the same as going into passive or JFET mode on the preamp.

@sbayne

Do the Rothwell attenuators alter the sound signal. I suspect they must. Any experienced there?

@almarg 

The output impedance of my preamp in tube gain mode SE is 210 ohms. Is that considered high?

Okay, all four of my woofers have a dimpled dome. In other words, it looks like someone pushed them in. They are all the same and it looks uniform. I thought nothing of it until I saw @grey9hound 's photos. His aren't dimpled....

Anyone else have dimpled domes in their woofers? 

The boxes came in perfect shape. There was no damage to anything in the box either. All four woofer caps look exactly the same. They are so much the same I thought it was intentional and by design.

Eric said that it was due to air pressure changes during shipping. He said use a shop vac to "gently" pull them out.....

So I used the shop vac....it pulled the covers out.....but there are still remnants of them being collapsed. I fear these covers will always look like this which is like crap! As I said, the covers looked like they were supposed to be like as all four looked exactly the same.

Eric should warn people about this. It's not like it should be a surprise considering the possible altitude changes during shipping.

No, that didn't come with the speakers....

I am waiting on Eric to respond with something other than "use a shop vac"....

I had the speakers made so they could take grills but I don't have grills currently. Regardless, the caps should be correct even if I were to choose to cover them.

If Eric is willing to send me new drivers I can install them. Are the connecters to the drivers soldered on? I can solder....would I need special silver solder?

Still waiting for a response to my last email sent yesterday at 10:04AM PDT. Granted, that's Sunday.

I'm just hoping the Pioneer M-22 that I have coming is powerful enough with 30 watts, all Class A, at 4 ohms.

I have some friends that say the M-22 amp is magic if you have enough power to get the headroom you need for the music you listen to.

I still have not heard back from Eric. I don't call because the last time I called, Karma told me that Eric is so busy building speakers that I should email instead. So that is what I am doing....

I am not particularly happy with Tekton right now.....

If you want to succeed selling $3000 to $15000 products in a market like this, customer service had better be quite good. Tekton are dropping the ball....

Well, no response in over two days......

I got a response from Karma telling me she will be getting me a response from Eric....

That’s a response but not a very good one.

Another email sent after another day of no real response. I am now thinking about sending the speakers back...

I just received an email from Eric that says he is going to send me "new ones". I assume that means new woofers.  Karma is supposed to be getting in touch with me tomorrow.

My Pioneer M-22 amp is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I am looking forward to comparing it to my Vidar amp. I've never compared amps like this before. Any tips on how to do it to get the most objective comparison?

I almost forgot. The gain of the M-22 amp is somewhat less than Vidar as the tube hum is quieter. About 3dB less if measured 2 inches from one of the midrange driver dust caps. When volume matching, I didn't have to turn the volume knob all that much to match sound level. Maybe 3 or 4 steps on the relay. This is surprising to me considering Vidar is 200 watts per channel and the M-22 is 30 watts per channel. The M-22 has more enough power. The volume can go well past extremely uncomfortable!

I have talked with Karma at Tekton and you can consider my situation taken care of.

The refurbished Pioneer M-22 I bought arrived today with the morning mail. It is a heavy amp at 48.5 lbs. Its gorgeous!

I setup the Vidar and M-22 on the floor in front of my rack so it would be easy to swap cables and let both amps warm up for 30 minutes. The M-22 dwarfs the Vidar. I started with the Vidar. I set the volume to my normal listening level. Then I went to YouTube, played an 80 Hz tone, and noted the dB level from my listening position. I played a few songs from my "Test" playlist in Roon. Then I switched all the cables over to the M-22 and volume matched using the same 80 Hz tone. I then played those same few songs from my "Test" playlist.

The difference was palpable. I couldn’t believe how much better the M-22 sounded to me. I double checked the volume matching just to make sure that wasn’t the reason for the difference. I am having a hard time isolating the differences because everything about the music sounds better. The music is much more full sounding without losing any detail or clarity. The bass is full and strong yet is controlled and clear. There is no muddiness in the bass. The mids are incredible. The highs are clean and strong without any harshness or brightness nor any roll off. For the overall sound, the word "lush" comes to mind. Maybe a bit "wet" as Marvey defines it. But all the while sounding natural. Don’t get me wrong. The Vidar amp sounds great. But it pales in comparison...at least so far.

I immediately thought that I must be experiencing "expectation bias". What else could explain the significant difference I was hearing?

I decided to setup a comparison session for my wife. She is a guitar player and is very musical. But, she has never paid any attention to audio equipment and thinks I am a little bit crazy buying all the audio equipment I have. I explained that I wanted her to listen to a couple of songs with each amp, not knowing which amp was used, and then tell me which she like better. She said I was wasting my time as she thought she would not be able to tell the amps apart.

I had her listen to two songs: "Gold" by Jonathan Stewart and "I.G.Y." by Donald Fagen. The first song is one she requested and the second is one I think exposes strengths and weaknesses audio systems. I flipped a coin and Vidar got to goes first. She listened to both songs and commented that they sounded great. I then switched to the M-22, volume matched, and had her listen again. About 30 seconds into "Gold" she had me stop the music. She said the second amp sounded far better than the first. I continued the two songs. After they finished, she said she was surprised at how much better the second amp sounded and was even more surprised that she could actually tell the difference. She likened the difference to hearing music live versus on the radio. She told me to keep the second amp, whichever one it was. Funny, she never asked which amp was which.

I have a lot more listening to do. But, if initial impressions are any indication, I will probably have a Vidar for sale soon!