Hi corelli, you have lost me, but maybe we are saying the same thing.. From what I have read above it is Tekton's stated comment that the dust covers imploded because of the pressures from shipping. I think that they will make it right. |
"send the dented dust cap woofers to his suppliers for reconing at a really low cost., which I assume he will do. Reconing a woofer is quite inexpensive in the grand scheme of things"
It does kinda stink to buy any brand of new speaker that has any kind of obvious damage unless the damage was disclosed at purchase.
The woofers made by Eminence in the Double impact speaker have a center dust cap which is convex and is lightly glued to the inner portion of the speaker cone.To change a dust cap requires carefully cutting the glue joint between the cap and cone and removing the damaged dust cap and then reglueing a new dust cap to the cone.
What I'm saying is the woofer does not need to be reconed at all,just needs a dust cap replacement and I totally agree with that Eric should take care of this for porscheracer,It's just good business practice IMHO.
Now most folks know I didn't like the stock blue cone woofers with my black metallic painted DI's and I changed mine to the Eminence Beta 10a which have black cones and a thicker and stiffer dust cap.
Welcome back to these threads jetter.
Kenny.
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Hey Kenny, I did realize that the woofer did not need to be reconed, but just don't know if Eric is on board with how easy it is "cutting the glue joint between the cap and cone". Easy for you, but not so sure in practice.Jetter
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It's a big turn off to hear the dust caps crumbled after a few week of usuage for potential new ower like me. |
333jeffery, that is very strange that the dust caps could crumble in without without someone accidently poking them or perhaps extreme humidity wetting them to the point of collapse. And thanks Kenny |
Well I would imagine that the 5 year warranty covers crumbling dust caps? I mean this is kinda pathetic to be honest lol. More power to you if you can just put the grills on your speaker and be ok with it. If a dust cap on my speaker that I just ordered 2 days ago even slightly showed a hint it was dented, the speaker would be going back immediately.
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Has anyone contacted Eric and given him a chance to respond to and remedy the issue?
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^ One would assume its being worked on behind the scenes. |
I have a friend that I recommended a pair of loudspeakers to. It was the same brand as my own at the time. He had a dust cap fall off one of the woofers and contacted me about it. He immediately contacted the manufacturer and they gave him an authorized return shipping voucher at their expense to ship this 100lb. tower speaker back to them as he didn't know how to replace the woofer as it had its leads soldered. I told the manufacturer I would perform the work of replacement. They sent a new woofer UPS next day air, and I made the repair. My friend was thrilled and guess what that manufacturer did for me? I had an older outdated loudspeaker processor of theirs which they traded even up for a brand new up to date processor! At the time, this was a $1600 upgrade. What happened to that woofer dust cover was extremely rare but I don't think my friend or I could have received better customer care. |
Mr_m:
I agree. Customer service is paramount. That’s why I asked if anyone had allowed Eric to address it. I doubt whether he wants his products or his company to get a bad reputation. Things happen, and it is a true measure of a company how issues are addressed. I have no reason to believe that Eric won’t address it both with customers and the manufacturer. He has worked too hard to get the reputation he has to just not address it. I agree though. It is a killbuzz to wait for a shiny new toy and then have it not be 100%. I’d be really surprised though if Eric doesn’t do the right thing. |
vitop,
Don't worry, I am sure Eric will take care of the problem. Customer care is more important than ever these days....
Cheers,
Tim |
I am waiting on Eric to respond with something other than "use a shop vac".... |
Do you at least have the dust cap attachment for your shop vac? |
No, that didn't come with the speakers.... |
porscheracer,
That stinks,I'm assuming you don't have grills on your speaker.
Eric should take care of this issue.
Kenny.
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I had the speakers made so they could take grills but I don't have grills currently. Regardless, the caps should be correct even if I were to choose to cover them.
If Eric is willing to send me new drivers I can install them. Are the connecters to the drivers soldered on? I can solder....would I need special silver solder?
Still waiting for a response to my last email sent yesterday at 10:04AM PDT. Granted, that's Sunday. |
Sorry to hear about your dust caps porscheracer. I'm sure Eric will take care of you properly. I've never had good luck emailing Eric and would suggest calling him. It sounds like he's busier than ever so show some patience ( easier said than done!) and I'm sure you'll have perfect looking drivers soon. |
@almarg & @charles1dad
Regarding the Coincident Frankenstein & DI pairing, thanks for all the great comments, as usual. I actually bought a pair of Coincident PREs, but Isreal isn't quite honest in saying that all of the company's speakers can be driven by any of his amps. It was very quickly evident that they did not have the power to drive the speakers, an opinion that was verified by Isreal when I e-mailed him
(and two other PRE owners I've talked to while working on the system).
I couldn't quite figure out whether I wanted to invest in changing the system to make the PREs sing (new amp vs. bi-amp), just go back to my old Coincident Super Eclipse IIIs (lovely with the Franks, but small for my room), or try something new (like the DIs). Unfortunately I had to move temporarily and put my entire system into storage for a year, so I'm without the toys for a bit... just reading for fun and storing up some opinions for the future. |
porscheracer,
Yes each wire is soldered on and silver solder would be the best if you have it.
Be careful removing the old woofers after the screws are all out Offcourse because there is some sticky stuff holding the back side of the magnet to the wooden stiffener plate inside the cabinets.I used a thin piece of plastic to carefully pry the woofer loose.
Not a major job by any means just giving fair warning.
Kenny. |
Cal3713, thanks for the additional info. I read through the nicely detailed description of the Coincident Pure Reference Extreme speakers at the Coincident website, and I have the following comments regarding the possibilities you mentioned:
1)I would absolutely rule out the idea of passively biamping the speakers, with your Franks handling the mid/tweeter section. Given that the mid/tweeter section handles frequencies as low as 110 Hz, and does not even electrically roll off frequencies below that, that approach wouldn't accomplish anything.
2)Active biamping doesn't seem too appealing, either. You would have to use an active crossover ahead of the two amps with the crossover frequency adjusted to be somewhere in the middle of the range handled by the midrange driver (110 Hz to 4 kHz), which would seem likely to compromise the coherency of the mid/tweeter section which Israel touts as one of the speaker's main features.
3)If the Franks weren't powerful enough for your purposes with the PREs (94 db/1 watt/1 meter/impedance 8 ohms nominal, never below 6 or above 10 ohms, and no difficult phase angles), I would not expect them to be powerful enough for your purposes with the DIs (98.8 db/2.83 volts/1 meter/4 ohms, which corresponds to 95.8 db/1 watt/1 meter/4 ohms, with a mismatch to your amplifier's 8 ohm tap).
4)So my feeling is that **if** you are happy with the PREs aside from the power issue with the Franks, I would simply look for a more powerful amp.
Best regards,
-- Al
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So there is a difference between 2.83 volts/ 1 meter and 1 watt/ 1 meter. Thanks for the calculation Al. Since speakers are listed both ways on the Tekton site I figured they were two different measurement that meant the same thing......i.e. that 2.83 volts equalled 1 watt.
I'm surprised the 8 watt Frank's wouldn't be enough to drive the DI's. Forgive my ignorance but if I, and others, are driving the DI's with the 1 watt MZ2 wouldn't the Frank's drive them easily.....or is the impedence mismatch too much of an issue? I only ask as the Frank's are an option I'm considering should I decide to add an amp and can fit them into my budget. I think I can order the Frank's with 4&8 ohm taps which would eliminate any impedence mismatch. |
Wether 1 or 8 watts is enough is most likely more dependent on listener preferences as well as music preferences. I have spoken with several DI owners who cannot live with 1 to 8 watts on the DI speaker. Terry, the reviewer, likes 1 -4 watts. What is great and best for one ( 3-4 2a3 watts) is too lacking to another listener. Subjective for sure. |
@almarg Ha, no, thank you Al. As always, great information. The Franks just provided very little bass output on the PREs. My Super Eclipses (2 8" woofers going down to 28Hz) provided way more bass than the PREs (2 12" woofers going down to 20Hz). Unfortunately I never got to make a real decision about how much I liked the PREs since they always sounded unbalanced without any real bass output.
I was considering passive bi-amping because it just felt like limitation was just with the Franks driving the subwoofer units.
Anyway, sorry for moving the conversation outside the DI topic. I appreciate all the useful commentary... great thread. |
mac48025,
Al and grannyring are spot one with their advice,
I have measured my DI speakers in room and I got,
95.3 db with a 1 watt input at a distance of 1 meter at the industry standard frequency of 1 K.
Even though both of us have definitely enjoyed the 1 watt of our MZ2S driving our DI's It's just not enough pwr for me overall considering my room size,types of music,and volume levels.
I got some new tubes for my Yamamoto Ao9's which is a 8 watt per channel 300b pwr amp for those who aren't familiar with it.So in the next few days I will be seeing for myself how it does with my DI's in place of my Zotl40.
Speaker and amp pairing is highly subjective as grannyring mentioned and It's up to the individual to find his or hers cup of tea so to speak.
Kenny.
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Mac,
If you and I can ever coordinate our schedules I’d bring my Frankenstein (with its 8 and 16 ohm taps) and we can simply listen to how they interact with your DIs from their 8 ohm tap. I’ll be back in Michigan in a few days.
Cal,
The Frankenstein works wonderfully with the Coincident Eclipse line of speakers and their Triumph Extreme monitor speakers. It seems that the other Coincident speakers need the Coincident Dragon mono blocks or suitable amplifier with more than 8 watts. I truly believe that the Line Magnetic 845 or 805 tubed SET amplifiers would be excellent with your Coincident PRE speakers.
If Mac and I are able to get together I’ll surely report to you how the Frankenstein and Double Impacts fared as a pairing. Grannyring (Bill) you’re right, this is all about subjective preferences. I do believe Terry in that the Double Impact and Triode Labs sound better than "any" other amp/speakers match he has heard in his review/main system and this includes many fine audio products over the years.
Charles |
Hi Charlies,
Please remember that I just ran the experiment of driving the Triode Lab SET 2A3 amplifier with a very good tube based preamplifier through the Ulf's and this combo was very good, but did not have the ultimate magic of the combo of the Micro-ZOTL/2A3. Yes, for me the 2A3 tube is even more natural/musical then my old favorite 300B. However, the Micro-ZOTL adds the overall kick/dynamics, pure tonality and 3D imaging and the 2A3 adds the colors and even more air and space between players. One more time, on either the DI's or Ulf's, regardless of the type of music, I can shake the walls and pressurize my very large acoustic with ease. |
Just submitted my order for a pair of Electrons this afternoon. Cautiously hopefull. Would have loved a pair of double impacts, but their visual/size dominance is just too much for my room. Praying the Electron will approach the level of play reported here.
Dan in dc |
Mac, regarding your question I’ll just second the good answers provided by Bill (Grannyring) and Kenny.
Regarding 2.83 volts vs. 1 watt, power into a resistive load equals volts squared divided by ohms. So 2.83 volts into 8 ohms is 1 watt, but 2.83 volts into 4 ohms is 2 watts. And since a power ratio of 2:1 corresponds to a 3 db difference, if the SPL of a 4 ohm speaker is specified on the basis of 2.83 volts (as is the case more often than not), 3 db has to be subtracted from that number to get SPL on a per watt basis.
The rationale for specifying on the basis of 2.83 volts is presumably that most solid state amps can supply considerably more power into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, in some cases twice as much (i.e., 3 db more). However most tube amps cannot do that, even if they provide a 4 ohm tap.
Cal, I’ll mention another issue concerning passive biamping, which applies even in the more typical case of a speaker having a much higher crossover point between bass and mid/hi than 110 Hz, and which electrically filters low frequencies out of the signal provided to the mid-range drivers (which the PRE does not). If the amp powering the bass driver is much more powerful than the amp powering the mid/hi drivers, chances are that a good deal of the power capability of the bass amp won’t be able to be utilized. While a passive biamp arrangement reduces the amount of current and power that has to be supplied by the amps, both amps still have to output a voltage corresponding to the full frequency range of the signal. So turning up the volume control high enough to utilize most of the power capability of the higher powered amp would most likely drive a significantly lower powered amp into clipping, resulting in severe distortion.
That fact seems to often be overlooked, when people consider passively biamping a high powered amp (often a solid state amp) in conjunction with a relatively low powered amp (often a tube amp). Active biamping, with an electronic crossover "ahead" of the amps, avoids that problem, but potentially has sonic issues of its own.
Best regards,
-- Al
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I'm just hoping the Pioneer M-22 that I have coming is powerful enough with 30 watts, all Class A, at 4 ohms.
I have some friends that say the M-22 amp is magic if you have enough power to get the headroom you need for the music you listen to. |
Hello porscheracer,
Regardless of were you scored this legendary amp, sleep well, you will no worries driving your DI's as far a volume and control over the bottom-end of the speaker. |
dan in dc,
Congrats on your new speaker selection I hope they work out for you.
Are you getting 2 8 inch woofers instead of 6 inch,I have heard that Eric has changed the Electron model just curious.
Let us know how you like them.
Kenny. |
Terry,
I am I'm agreement with you regarding the Pioneer M 22 power amplifier. It has the reputation as a serious purposed amplifier with a very stout high quality power supply and pure class A circuit. It should mate very well with the Double Impacts. I see no rational reason why it should not.
Charles |
teajay,
I have no doubt that you are'nt getting simply magical sound with the Triode labs 2a3.
I'm just curious what tubes you are currently using and liking the best.
Kenny. |
Charles I also believe that Terry believes the combo is best for/to him. I bet the system does some things in an extraordinary way. The key here is ...to him. Audience of one. In addition BEST is a very fickle thing. Over the decades with all my various types of systems, many great sounding, I learned something that I know is true for many audiophiles. One uses care, careful research, trial and error and finally settles into a very enjoyable system. The system is enjoyed for a season only to be replaced by another "type" of system that is deemed to sound better. Does the new system really sound "better"? Sometimes. However, most times the audiophile is really more pleased with the new sound. Something new that is now hitting different auditory pleasure points. Example...Going from ESL speakers with huge SS monoblock amps to high efficiency speakers and a 4 watt tube amp. It is exciting to both the ears and mind to enjoy a completely different musical flavor. Is it better? Well, for that season and to that person you bet it is.
I realize you are a different type of audiophile Charles not fitting into the group above. That’s great as no type of audiophile is best or right.
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Hey grannyring,
Of course it always boils down to personal taste, like all artistic pursuits there is no right or wrong, it's what the individual finds pleasing to his sense of taste. So you are stating the obvious in most of your post.
However, even in the very beginning of my life long pursuit at putting together my systems that would sound like the illusion of real music two constants have always been in effect:
1) If timbres/tonality were not correct to my ear's the rest did not matter to me.
2) I always knew that if some new piece of gear sounded that much better then my reference, watch out, new is not always better, maybe different, and you better live with it for awhile to see if it's as charming as you thought it might be.
As I stated earlier in this thread I have never liked horn and single driver designs. Therefore, before Eric's breakthrough you could not really use SET amps on full range multi-driver box speakers. Now you can! So, for my personal taste I can have the colors/tonality of a SET design with no apparent drawbacks as far as I can tell.
By the way: Spent another six hours in front of the Ulf's today. If they are not totally broken-in yet it got to be close now. They are magnificent music makers. They have the overall house sound of the DI's taken to even a higher level across the sonic board. When I write my review for hometheaterreview.com, hopefully in the next 4 to 6 weeks, I'll get into all the little details of Ulf's musical magic. |
Well many do read reviews and are swayed completely buy a reviewers subjective tastes. What you say is obvious to all I have found is not that obvious to some readers. My point needs to be repeated in threads like this. Not all readers of this thread, or reviews in general, are seasoned and experienced shoppers/Aphiles.
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I suppose that I may assume too much sometimes. I expect that others do recognize that opinion and perspective expressed on open forums are indeed just "personal" experiences and not proclamations. I’m a fan of good SET amplifiers and appreciate their virtues. It doesn’t go beyond that simple admission and is certainly no decree admonishing everyone to do the same, hardly.
Charles |
Hey grannyring,
For years when I would read the professional reviews I centered on two aspects over time. First, what gear was in this reviewer's system, they might think a new piece of gear they were reviewing was great compared to their equipment, but that did not prove it was competitive to other gear that they never had experienced directly. Secondly, I quickly could figure out their "personal taste" if it jived with mine then I could get a rough gage that I would like it vs the reviewers who had a very different auditory set of desires which meant not for me.
I believe the major problem with many high-end customers is that they buy the flavor of the month because of EGO and to have the latest/greatest/most expensive gear, therefore if such and such esteemed reviewer raved about it they got to have it. The purchase has nothing to do about improving the sound of their system or having more enjoyment of the music, but having the biggest "sonic cock on the block" mentality. These individuals are really struggling with Eric's speakers because "blue collar" audiophiles can now get a pair of speakers that out performs their hideously over priced/hyped speakers. Their "audio jewelry" has been tarnished before their eyes. |
Charles,
That sounds great. My schedule has finally settled down and I look forward to getting together when you're back in town. Hearing the Frank's with the MZ2 and DI's will be interesting. I've tried three other tube amps with the MZ2 and much preferred the sound of the MZ2 alone. None of them were SETs though, so I'd very much welcome hearing your Frank's. Give me a shout when you're back in town.
Thanks Al,
Once again your explanations make things so clear and simple.....and make perfect sense to me. I knew it took double the power to produce 3 db more in sound level, so the doubling of power needed to drive a 4 ohm load over an 8 ohm load decreases the sound output by 3 db. Got it, thanks again.
Thanks to everyone else's responses. While I don't know the science behind much what our audio gear accomplishes, I do know what sound I like and like Terry if the tone/timbre isn't right for me the rest doesn't matter. I used to be a dynamics freak, hence all of the large SS amps I used to own, and at times miss the feeling of a bass drum nearly knocking me over. That's not to say SS amps don't get tone/timbre right, I just haven't come across one that does them as well as a good tube amp with good NOS tubes. Though the First Watt amps intrigue me and hope to hear one.The MZ2's one watt provides everything I could want in sound.....tone, timbre, air, detail, realism, great soundstage, deep and controlled bass, sound levels into the mid 90 db's with peaks over 100..........everything except the bone jarring dynamics and concert level sound levels. I'm sure my relatively small and acoustically treated room plays heavily into that, along with my preference for acoustical music. If I listened to more orchestral or hard rock I'm sure I'd be clamoring for more power. Like many have already stated, there's no right or wrong, just personal preferences. My problem is that I like it all! Need to get my second system with a tube pre and SS amp going soon so that I can move some serious air :)
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Kenny, I am not sure....which is pretty wild that I just spent 3k on a product that I have never heard, never seen in person, and I'm not even sure of the woofer size..... I emailed tekton a few times hoping to engage in a conversation contrasting the sound of the DI with electron given the smaller sized transducers and cabinet. However they never replied. So, will wait and see what arrives. I bought the upgraded electron package so hopefully it has the best possible woofer. Anyone have an idea on how long it takes them to ship? |
@terpstation
I would respond to the email you got when you ordered the Electrons. By responding your email will go to the manager who organizes the orders. Confirm that your order will include the 8" Drivers, if that is what you want.
Eric will most likely install (2) 8" drivers, but he will also install (2) 6" if requested. After talking with Eric we felt it was best to go with the 8" for the extra bass. If you like real tight bass, he recommends the 6" driver, which he can install if you want.
I would estimate the speakers will take 2-3 weeks to make for standard
finish. At least that is what I was told just this weekend.
Eric told me over the phone, that he feels the Electrons are just as good as the Di’s.
Also you want to make sure you ear is level with the Middle tweeter. The Electrons cabinet is now 48" tall vs 46". With the Base and the Spikes the tweeter is now 40" high.
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Aniwolfe, thanks so much for the information. I just replied to the billing receipt email asking for confirmation on the 8 inch drivers and shipping estimate. Really psyched to get these.
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Teajay, you are absolutely correct with your EGO comment and some audiophiles. I see this attitude more and more of late. Why? Because we are now seeing some extraordinary sounding wire and gear being sold at reasonable prices. Tekton is certainly at the top of the list for speakers. I really believe high end sound is becoming more and more affordable. Yes, I realize astronomically priced gear is also on the rise. However, I see that as a reaction to the fact that the SQ gap between big dollar gear and "affordable" gear is shrinking......and fast.
Products like Tekton can actually help expand our industry and bring in new consumers. This needs to happen.
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Who (if any) are "the Tekton" of the amps? ie -- who is selling a leading edge amp for a price that most would consider to be average? Both tube and SS. Is there one? Schiit has the Vidar, but I'm not sure that is leading edge an amp as the DI is a leading edge speaker. |
I ordered my pair of DI last week in piano black. Since it will be a while before they make and ship them I can still change the color. I was told that Ferrari metallic black looks very good and so does the Mercedes metallic black. Did anybody order the speakers in different versions of black? If yes, what are the impressions of the finish? |
Eric told me the metallic black looks really good and has some pearl in it. That’s what I ordered, but have not received it yet so I can’t give any impressions |
Olesno,
My DI's are the Mercedes black diamond. The metal flake is subtle and it needs to be in bright to fully appreciate. I liked it a lot when I had them in my family, even the wife liked the color. In my dark listening room they look like a gloss piano black, which is fine with me.
Vitop,
I would put the Linear Tube Audio gear in the "Tekton" price value family, especially the MZ2 and ZOTL 10. Quality parts made by hand is America, sound great and are priced for the average man. I look forward to hearing what others suggest.
Grannyring,
I couldn't agree more with you, and teajay. Tekton will expose the common man to audiophile performance and expand the audio industries base. I gave my Tekton Enzo's to my son and he's totally into the audio scene now. Three of his friends bought Tekton speakers after hearing his. These twenty and thirty somethings could support the audio industry for many years to come. My son and his friends are all into tubes and vinyl also......old school for youngins. Gotta luv it. |
Mac: I just looked at the ZOTL10 and at least for me, it is not as compelling as the Tekton. I honestly believe that the Di can hold it's ground against 30k speakers I have heard. With the 2600 price of the ZOTL10, the same formula would put it against 26k amps. Some pretty heady stuff.
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"I would estimate the speakers will take 2-3 weeks to make for standard finish. At least that is what I was told this weekend."
Aniwolfe, and Terpstation,
2-3 weeks is surprising to me. I ordered the 8" Electrons, first in white, then about 10 days ago changed to gray while awaiting production news. I was told then that Eric is tweaking the 8" Electrons. I stated how important it was for me to have a finished product since I lack any tech experience, and would not want to attempt any updates. I'm sure Eric would not knowingly send out a model that needed additional fine tuning. I personally am willing to wait until he is completely comfortable with his adjustments to this model.I ordered my pair 5 weeks ago.
BTW, it feels good to find others who have chosen the Electrons. These D.I. guys are driving me nuts.
LP |
I'd put the Benchmark AHB2 amplifier in the "Tekton of Amplifiers" category for most innovative solid-state at a cheaper price point than the upgraded Double Impacts ($3000 last I checked). It sounds very good too, but I still ended up returning it and going with the Art Audio Diavolo SET 300b Copper Ref Tube amplifier at a bit more than double the price because I know what I love to hear and it delivers the goods everytime.
There may very well be better SETS, but not for me, because I stopped looking.
I so wish a used one was available at the time I was shopping, they make very affordable and reliable used tube amplifiers. My last one clocked a decade before I stupidly sold it chasing Omega panel speakers dreams from Analysis Audio of Greece.
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