My DI story from when I received them a couple of weeks ago. I posted this in another forum's thread where there were many non-owner nay-sayers. Which expains some edginess in my revuew. That attitude about the product was, in fact, what inspired me to test this product in person. To the nay-sayers, thank you! I love the product and I'm considering an upgrade to the SE version.
Compared to the signal paths described by others in this threat, I am certainly an equipment hacker. But even with my "junk" holding them back. I really enjoy the DIs.
----------------------------
Purchased the DIs under duress. My wife has always loved my 804s
B&Ws and her approval was... "if you buy them, save the boxes. They are likely going back." Then
my 28 year old daughter weighed in with,
"You aren't seriously thinking about replacing those speakers are
you?". Sooooo, I ordered them late Monday with the upgrade package. They
arrived late Friday. They were well packed and the are solid (read as
HEAVY). The finish is very good. They fit nicely next to my screen and
in front of the corner bass traps. Basically black on the black traps so
they disappear in the room. All good.
Skipping to the trial by fire. After a couple of hours of break-in my daughter, visiting for mothers day, and my wife appear in the HT door with hate in
their eyes. (this is where the haters are going to state this is not a
scientific test and these people are unqualified to make an assessment.
Please stop reading now. Thank you!) Set up with both speakers
unequalized in any way, I feed some familiar songs from my music server
through my ifi DAC to my Denon 4520. I then switched to my Thorens/AT440
for a bit. At this point my wife hasn't walked out of the room. A good
sign for the DIs. My daughter states to
my surprise and my wife's horror, "Those are the best sounding speakers
I've ever heard. It sounds like the lead is standing right there and I
can pick out things I haven't heard before". My wife just knew she had
her back covered with my daughter and
here she's been hit by friendly fire. I stayed VERY quiet. So the wifer
is now looking for mud to sling, and she actually finds some. The DIs
are not as bright as the well know bright 804s and she interprets that
as a lack of clarity in the upper end sound of the DIs. We did some A-B
stuff between the sets and it was noticeable that the curves/voices were
quite different. Of course we have the room tuned for the 804s
effectively eliminating their bright tendencies, that I feel is their
only character flaw.
So I did some measuring and EQing with the DI's over the last couple of
days and basically matched the DIs with the B&Ws freq curve. Brought
the wife in on a blind AB test and she picked the DIs. There you go. I
REALLY had my doubts going in. My impression is, the high end was where
she wanted it and it was totally clear. The DIs brought out some
midrange tonal deficits I never knew the 804s had. The DIs just sounded
more natural. And it looks like it may be time to re-analyze the room
acoustics. It really is very dead in there. That I knew. I could be
wrong though. It may be we're just use to the brightness. But really
flat frequency curves don't sound good. That's why we add room curves.
Right? But I have some experimenting to do.
Other interesting facts... to equalize the speakers output I had to add
8db to the B&Ws. And I thought the 804s were efficient. Also, the
B&Ws really needed a sub. The DIs absolutely do not. The low in is
all there. Very tight and very defined. The speaker is very natural
sounding. The imaging is better than the 804s which is significant in my
opinion. I would like to hear it with a tube amp and some good vinyl.
You certainly don't need a lot to push it.
But the other end of the spectrum was even more dramatic. We watched a
couple of movies with these. They are very dynamic. In fact I forgot to
re-incorporate the sub in the system so we watched the first movie with
the DIs handling the LFE too. And didn't notice it. I'm sure it was down
some but it wasn't anything dramatic for sure. If you buy these for
nothing else, use them in your HT. But after integrating the Sub at 80hz, the overall dynamics were almost overwhelming.
Bottom line, they aren't going back. They are superior to my much loved
804s. They won over my two most critical, and in this case, most
negative reviewers. They perform from LP playback to LFE chest beating
modes. I don't care if they are made out of old beer cans and bailing
wire crossovers. They work in my system and are a great value with
uncompromising results. And it's the results that count in my book. If
all you have is $3K for speakers, buy these. And if you think there are
some haters on this thread that are hard to convince, you haven't met my
girls!
Bob
|
Vitop, I’ve only compared to my 804s B&Ws. No experience with the Persona, The Wilsons and the Legacy Aeris.
I think you will be very satisfied with the DI in HT duty. Just FYI, I am actually in Cypress so if you want to hear them in that environment, let me know. I thought somewhere you mentioned you were in Houston. I have a dedicated HT but not the Atmos configuration. Just a measly 7.1 with B&W DS3 surrounds and a DIY sub.
Thanks for the warm welcome group! Sorry for the record length first post.
|
I've never had less that a 7.1 since we built the house with the HT so I really can't say if there is a huge difference with the 5.1. Maybe I'll shut down the rears and see. But my opinion is, at least in my environment, that 7.1 is enough and have never felt the need to go past that. But I also have never heard an Atmos system. So my opinion is lacking an important comparison. Maybe a good reason NOT to hear one and feel the need for 4-5 more speakers!
|
On the 4/8 ohm question, in conversations with Eric, he REALLY dislikes the idea of 8 ohm. His stance is, old technology and if you have an amp that requires it, you should replace it. He says his 4 ohm should be fine with any well designed tube amp.
|
I ordered an upgrade set of the Double Impact SE today with a center channel. 4-6 weeks to ship Eric tells me. I'll post a review when I get them sorted out. I believe I'll have one of the first sets. At this point I'm trying to imagine how they could sound significantly better than the DIs I have now. In the meantime I have two phono pre-amps coming. The pro-ject Tube Box and the Emotiva SP-1. Going to compare tube vs SS. I also realize I need to upgrade my Denon 4520 too. Looking at Outlaw SS. That's going to be expensive for me, but I know that's the weak link in my signal chain right now with my Denon 4520
|
I am returning the DIs I have now for a new set of DI SE. As I understand they are totally different hardware. So I assume it wouldn't be possible to retrofit an existing DI set. Want to buy my old set? Not even a fingerprint on them and Eric may make you a deal not to have them returned. Standard black finish with the upgrade option. Just a thought for anyone out there.
On the center channel... Eric actually pushed me toward the 3 tweet center channel. He said the 7 was really overkill for most systems. I guess if you have a really large room it could be required and he did say most users were ordering the 7 without consulting him. He didn't think they were generally required. Mine is a 14w x 20d x 12h room with 8 HT seats. He also told me not to do the upgrade version either, despite the fact my DIs were the upgrade type. He said I wouldn't have a problem with the voicing between the two.
|
david_ten I have no more information than what Eric posted earlier copied below. All I can add is he is definitely moving forward with them. I was given 4-6 weeks to ship at this point.
I currently have the DI with the upgrade package. The SEs are suppose to use superior components to even those. I'm going to call Eric tomorrow to sort out some things on center channel. I'll see what information he allows me then. I am also considering an Enzo 2.7 as a center channel. I have 42" below my screen frame so the Enzo would fit and have the tweeters as high as possible since they are at the top of that model. But Eric may recommend a center with the same components as the SE pieces or just tell me to stick with the DI 3-tweeter unit if voicing is similar. I never use the center for music anyway. It isn't that critical in my thinking.
" AS of NOW I am excited to announce the production of an extreme
version of the Double Impact. I'll call it the 'Double Impact SE'
(special edition) but it's not set in stone. This model is an expression
of the cost no object approach. The DI SE is not the same speaker nor
does it use the same parts. This model will be available through
exclusive high-end hi-fi dealers with the price set to $6K-$10K per
pair.
"
|
Bleachers has a new release called "Gone Now". I doubt it fits many folks taste on this thread (my daughter claims I'm 60 going on 14) but tracks 5 and 6 will totally expose the dynamics and imaging of DIs. I am enthralled. Now I do have a DIY sealed sub with opposing 15s powered by two crown amps that help a LOT below 80hz. But the DIs by themselves carry that floor when I loose them to the task. Again, not everyone's music, but worth a listen IMHO if you just want to crank it up and have some fun.
|
david_ten I can't leave well enough alone. Told my daughter I was upgrading to the SE version and she said they BETTER sound as good as these! I assured her she would again get an A/B audition and I could return either set. No pressure!
|
The longer this thread goes, the more unworthy I feel to own the DIs with my crummy signal path and lousy taste in music. My 28 year old daughter was here all weekend and continues to enjoy the DIs. We enjoyed a few hours listening and I'm pretty sure the closest to Classical or Jazz we got was "Yes". Fun to have the family enjoy your hobby with you.
|
@david_ten actuallly Kathryn did asked what I was going to do with the 804s the DIs displaced. But mom wasn't letting those leave the house. They displaced some floor standing 6 series B&Ws I had in the family room. The 804s are very nice looking, as well as sounding great IMHO so that was a win for the wife. Kathryn is likely to "inherit" the 6 series for the new house they are building. I need some good sound when I visit over there too! Win, win, win.
|
As far as presentation with my DIs in my room, the lunatic in Dark Side of the Moon is standing behind your left shoulder. I've startled a couple of people with that effect. And that's driving them with a SS Receiver. If the imaging of the Ulfs surpasses that, it must be impressive. This effect and just the general depth/width/definition of the sound field was never as good as this with my B&W 804s. And they are know to be pretty good in that aspect. I am really looking forward to my DI SE when Eric gets to them.
|
I would like to upgrade several pieces in front of my DIs. I'd like advice on a SS 2-Ch power amp. I don't want to invest in the level described in the amps discussed here. I have a Denon 4520 Receiver now and will be investing in an Atmos Pre-Pro in the future, but would like to buy a good power amp strictly for the DIs first. My research brought me to the PS Audio Stellar S300 http://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-s300-power-amplifier/ Comments on that choice? Any other recommendations for a SS unit for around $1500? If there is a tube or Hybrid that would work for similar price that would keep-up in a HT application, I'd consider that too, but I doubt there is anything that cheap. If this price bracket is so low on the group's radar as to not be a good question, just ignore it. But any advice would be appreciated. |
Great info group. Thanks! I have much research to do.
It will be 50/50 Audio/HT. I am considering the new Outlaw Atmos preamp that is suppose to be available this year. I also looked at the Emotiva XMC-1 but have heard they've had troubles with some of their offerings. Marantz 7703 or maybe a used/refurbed 8802 are under consideration too but the Outlaw seems to have a good reputation and they are stating a target of $1200 for their Atmos pre/pro so that seems attractive.
Sources are an Oppo 103 for BR, (will go with a 203 in the future) An HTPC FLAC lossless through an IFI Micro DSD DAC for digital music and a Thorens TD-165 with an AT-440. for analog.
And here is the TMI paragraph if you would like to know more about my situation. My HT rack is in the rear of the room My speaker cables to the DIs presently are over 60ft! I want to put the amp for the DIs in the front with them and feed it with balanced cables from the Pre/Pro to shorten the speaker cables to only 6ft. So I want a 2 (or 3 for center) channel amp in the front and the remainder in the back with the pre-pro. So I can't just have a single 7 or 11 (atmos) channel amp in the rear. That complicates things for me. I need to sort through some of these suggestions. The answer may be there. With Emotiva's XPA G3 amp, I feel like I'm wasting a lot only putting two power cards in that chassis designed for 7. Maybe that's just a quirk for me though. Are Marantz amps or pre/pros worth a darn? Or are they just in the same class as my current Denon sonically? Thanks again for suggestions.
|
@grannyring that deal definitely has my attention. It's within driving distance too.
@charles1dad where the heck can I find find pricing on First Watt without having to stagger into a brick and mortar and arm wrestle sales people?
@teajay I wish that list was in my price range! I just can't justify that investment.
@corelli Marantz separates are still on the list as far as I'm concerned. Especially the pre/pro. I put Emotiva and Outlaw in the same general bracket and all seem like they have good reputations with Emotiva having some product offering hick-ups that seemed to last a bit long.
@lancelock I was almost ready to order the JOB but it only doesn't have balanced inputs. I don't think a 50ft RCA cable is a good idea. That does sound like an excellent piece though reading the reviews.
@mac48025 the 3-Channel Odyssey Stratos HT-3
Would allow me to power the center channel up-front too. Can you tell me more of your Odyssey experience? Never heard of them.
@stfoth, I hear ya man. At this point it isn't in the cards or budget. I'm going to do the best I can with an HT system that does stereo well.
|
I've always heard for long runs it is much better to go with the balanced. I don't want to trade one problem for another. But thanks for the heads-up!
|
I love the Pass but 12 years is a bit long in the tooth. I am very focused on the Odyssey offerings at this point but nothing is being ruled-out.
|
|
@almarg Thanks for that information. Learned something new today. I will likely invest in that no matter which way I go with the amp. You are thinking it would be cleaner to input any amp RCA from the Jenson piece? And are you sure the transformer won't degrade the signal? I tend to lean toward a "less is better", minimalist view of a signal path. Don't throw anything in that isn't really needed because it's likely to degrade the signal. But if you feel this will allow a cleaner signal to reach the amp, and it will replace lesser circuitry in the amp, then it certainly makes sense and really isn't adding anything since it eliminates a circuit within the amp itself. This then puts the JOB amp back into play for me too. I wish JOB didn't have a Soup Nazi return policy to allow an in-home trial. That may actually push me to the Odyssey offering instead.
|
333jeffrey Last night I put on the Lorde release through the DIs crossed at 80hz to my DIY dual opposed 15" sealed sub. I'm pretty sure there is the 20-20K range on every one of her songs. It was amazing without even pushing those speakers. -10dB on the volume knob of my Denon 4520. If you like concert level listening, you'll likely love these. I can only imagine the Ulfs or heaven forbid the 1812s in that mode.
|
@giantsalami if I could figure out how to do PMs on this site, I would like to discuss the Kismets if you are indeed thinking of selling them.
I'm talking with Klause now about the Stereo Kismet Reference. I'm also considering the Kismet tube pre-amp. It has an HT Pass-Through input so I could have the best of both worlds in that configuration. The problem then becomes how to integrate the sub in 2-channel mode and still have it available for LFE for the HT. That may be the deal breaker for that scenario.
|
Odyssey custom Kismet Referrence stereo amp and tube pre-amp on order. Thanks for the input and recommendations folks. This just seemed like the right thing for what I want to accomplish.
|
@mofojo That sounds very good. Glad to hear that. He apparently is a big Tekton fan. He is doing quite a bit of customization to both the pre and power amp plus the full upgrade packages on both. He is also provisioning a third output from his Pre to integrate my sub. So I can put the Pre in an HT mode and it becomes passive to my HT amp while watching movies. If it all works as he says, it should be the best of both worlds. A 2-channel discrete system embedded in a 7.1 HT system.
|
Stfoth the answer is, sort-of. I am over with the Preamp included, but the original number was for the Power Amp, only. But Klaus does give better than advertised pricing if you call and go through your application/needs with him and buy a package deal. So my overall budget is intact because the if new preamp configuration works, I don't have to replace my Denon. I can keep the Denon for HT and that money went to the lesser cost Preamp and the more expensive power amp in the package. So basically, I'm still within my overall budget for the system. That clear as mud?
|
Klaus said he would build me "relatively inexpensive" center channel amp if the voicing between the center and front mains are problematic. Relative inexpensive to him is probably 4 figures, but there is a solution there. And Atmos is going to take an additional 4 speakers. I'm not convinced we're missing a lot not having it. But if I get rich and/or bored, who knows. Thanks for the input stfoth.
|
I have the Candela on order. Thanks for the comments. That is encouraging. I will look at
tube upgrades at some point. Talking to Klaus it's apparently going take
several weeks to ship and about a year to break it in with my listening habits. Seems like the
ultimate sound is a long way off!
|
Yep. I asked Klaus if I should just put some music on and close the door for about a month. He said "NO! It is a wonderful experience and you don't want to miss any of it!". I think he is really into his hobby/business and I love to see the passion. On the other hand, I am old. I don't want to die before my amp breaks in either.
buds, it's good to know the new power overshadowed the Denon. I keep thinking, could it really get a lot better than this? Because it sounds pretty great right now.
All, if I got this thread off-track to amps, I apologize. But the amp dialog has really been a help to me. Thanks!
|
almarg, thanks for that information. I am a long time Blue Jean user. What you read on the Odyssey page seems to have little to do with what Klaus builds. I told him about the need for the long run. He may be compensating for that in the design, but I'll run it by him. I think I've spent about 2 hours on the phone learning from him so far and enjoyed every second. His excitement and energy is contagious. I discussing the long cables he also said he felt longer speaker cables were superior to longer interconnects. Even balanced ones. I was actually a bit surprised.
lancelok, that sounds like an awesome set-up. Your Tektons will improve with break-in. At least mine certainly did. So you can look forward to that.
|
"
And, now I wonder who else is "stretching the truth".
" You're on to us! We are all shills attempting to get you to buy Tektons. We are up to 1000 posts. Please hurry. We are tiring. :-)
|
Eric really doesn't like to spend time making grills. He seems to think speakers take priority. I actually suggested he farm them out to be done at one point. But you will see them eventually. Just keep communicating.
|
|
@milpai I am currently powering my DIs with a Denon 4520 receiver but I just ordered an Odyssey Kismet Reference power amp and their Candela Tube Preamp as an upgrade. My music tastes depart a bit from the majority in this thread. A one watt SET amp is awesome sounding, but it won't get the job done for me in my room.
It was actually this thread that guided me to look at Odyssey and some other high end SS offerings.
I've had several awesome conversations with Klaus, the Odyssey owner. He is very familiar with the Tekton line and thinks this combo will be perfect for my listening habits. I think he's more excited about it than I am! The DIs are impressively dynamic and detailed even with the current Denon receiver. I am really looking forward to what the Kismet will sound like with them and with the DI SE pieces that will arrive in a few weeks as an upgrade to the DIs I have now. On both fronts it's like waiting for Christmas around here!
|
@teajay "I wish the individuals who are experienced with high power SS amplifiers
on the DI's could spend some time with a SET amplifier, they might find
it very hard to go back to their SS gear."
Question TJ... Take a $4K budget. Using the DIs for Stereo and HT applications. I would need a Preamp with an HT Pass-Through mode similar to what the Odyssey Calandra offers to incorporated it simplistically into my system to make it user friendly for the others in my household. What SET based Pre and Power amp would your recommend to power the DIs to at least 110dB in a well treated room that's 20 deep, 14wide and 12 high and a distance of 12ft from the mains? And I don't play chamber music. My most recent purchase was Bleachers.
Lastly, I don't want to demo this in a store. I don't want to have to deal with a dealer coming to my house. I would be willing to buy the unit if they would agree to a trial/return similar to Tekton and Odyssey. So far I've contacted a couple of tube manufactures and they are all into the Soup Nazi marketing mode. I, in fact, contacted Rogue last week and that was what I got from them. I'm very interested in your response.
|
Thanks Kenny. What I have on order already is a tube pre-amp and what I believe is an exceptional SS amp from Odyssey. Terry gives me the impression he believes anyone who listens to an SET amp will never consider a SS again. And I am willing to test that theory if I can find something I can afford that will actually fill my personal requirements of system dynamics. I don't think a 10 watt SET will get there. And when you start looking at any high quality tube design up in the 50 watt range, it gets stupidly expensive very quickly. But, I bought Tekton not expecting them to replace my B&Ws and they did. Nobody can accuse me of not being open minded.
But I've pulled enough away from the main point of this thread. I'll wait for the Odyssey to arrive. If I love it, end of story. And I'm relatively sure I will.
|
@teajay thanks of the recommendations. Do you feel comfortable that 11-12 watts will be enough in a LR Mains HT application? And no, I don't listen to 110dB as a norm. But I would like to have a bit of head-room to facilitate the more dynamic music that generally includes a considerable quantity of low end. Considering that, would I need to incorporate a Sub to help the tube amp on the low end?
|
Yes he did mofojo but thanks for confirming your experience. I believe the term he used was "adventure". I asked if I should just do some continuous music to get some hours on it and said "No! You will want to hear every hour of the process." The man is into his craft. That's for sure.
|
@audioman58 I have dual opposed 15" subs in a sealed enclosure. I've experimented with many configurations in my DIY days and the dual opposed was the best I could do for both LFE and clean-tight base for music. I've lowered the crossover frequency quite a bit with the Tekton's though. Especially for music.
|
I agree that this is an Awesome thread. Thanks for all the help and advice directed toward me as the noob at this level. My thought process is... first, keep an open mind and then evaluate all information as if the suggestion is the correct answer, even if it doesn't fit my biases. That is REALLY hard for me.
|
@corelli cyclist here too. 25 today on the off-road bike. Be safe out there!
|
Schitt does have separate DACs. I just ordered their Phono Pre-Amp.
|
@craigl59 Let me join your heresy club. I too utilize JRiver and DBPoweramp in a similar manner and have a similar signal path. The fact that there is nothing added to the recordings is what I enjoy. If there is "warmth" on the recording, I want it presented that way but not added. In fact I have an Odyssey Tube Preamp on order. I've conveyed to Klaus at Odyssey that I am not a tube sound fan but he maintains he wants me to try the Candela first and return it if I don't like it with the Kismet power amp. Just wanted you to know you aren't the only "digital" fan in the thread. But this is a long discussed preference and takes nothing away from others that love the sound from a 1 watt tube amp. It just shows the capabilities of the DIs to do many things extremely well.
|
I totally agree with Charles. People LOVE the coloration added by tubes. And that is great. I personally don't. I want my signal path to be as close to the proverbial "wire with gain" as possible. It it wasn't "warm" when it was recorded. I don't want it to sound "warm" in my listening environment. I want a clean sheet of paper, then if I want to add characteristics, I can do that digitally and totally control it. But to Charles' point, we should be buying what sounds good to us. And then throw in the varying listening environments, music types, listening levels. All our expectations are different and that's OK. The one comment in this whole thread that rubs me the wrong way is when it was stated that if you every hear a SET amp, you'll never like anything else, or something to that effect.
|
Charles I have a layer of tubes in the Preamp I have on order. I am certainly going to keep an open mind.
|
Called Tekton today. Eric was tied-up painting, but Karma tells me it looks good for my DI SE units to be built next week. That's the good news. The bad news is, the non-SE DIs I have now are broken-in and are really sounding great. I almost hate to send them back! But I'm sure the SEs will be worth the temporary step backward.
|
You may want to check to be sure the 2A3 will handle 4 ohms. It says 16 or 8 on their site and Eric doesn't like to build 8 ohm versions. He believes all his effort to build efficient speakers goes out the window with that version and if an amp won't handle 4 ohm, you need a different amp. His opinion, not mine.
|
Hey, I'm just repeating what I've read on the amp mfg web site and what Eric related to me. Didn't mean to cause ripple in the matrix.
|
@sebrof I am in Houston. If you're in Texas you could still be 900 miles away! LOL
I didn't search back as to what flavor of Tekton you wanted to sample in Texas, but I have DIs with the upgrade package currently. I should have DI Special Editions in a couple of weeks.
If you come, bring Scotch and your bike. Just got back from a 25 mile ride myself. It's a bit warm in south Texas today!
Lastly, I am an underachiever in the signal path vs the average on this thread. No SET amp. No multi-thousand dollar DAC or TT. But I think you can get a good idea of the speaker's capabilities from my rig. Just drop me a PM if you are actually close and are interested in coming by.
|
@Evolvist, just sent you a message with my email address. This forum software is not user friendly. I'm just up 290 from you off Fry Rd. near Blackhorse Ranch.
|
evolvist, I am really looking forward to hearing it too. You and I seem to have similar music tastes and is probably why we both seem to lean toward the SS sound. I also have my hand-truck ready and the crane in place to lift it to the second floor. LOL
|
Vitop, LOL. No I don’t actually have a crane. But I do have a Bendpak two-post lift in the garage. Does that count?
|
