So, some words are mere words while others are more than that and almost actions. Can be difficult to differentiate, and who would have the right to do it ?
Tariffs and sky high audio prices.
With the Chinese tariffs taking hold on 100% of the imports and maybe even on Mexico forthcoming, the audio industry is going to see another big jump in their sky high prices. Anyone making purchases ASAP to get lower prices from existing inventory before post tariff products enter the marketplace?
331 responses
If you consider words actions then yes, if not - anyone can say anything, Nazi or not.The point is they were going beyond mere words. They were doxing people, showing up and threatening them, and encouraging others like them to do the same. It's that type of stochastic terrorism that'll get the knuckle draggers to actually commit the physical act, while those giving voice to such crap hide behind the 1st ammendment, saying, "It wasn't me!" All the best, Nonoise |
Every policy has its winners and losers. Who is going to give the vast numbers of relatively poor, and perhaps also a fair chunk of the middle class, who already cannot make ends meet legally in many cases, a fighting chance when prices at Walmart go up? Many would say poverty and the crime and other social dysfunction that goes with it is public enemy #1. Unfortunately the Mom and Pop stores Walmart ran off aren’t coming back... they will continue to operate at a disadvantage no matter where the goods come from. Much harder to turn back the clock than to move forward..... |
Of course the media is going to try and send us into a panic and report how bad this is going to be for Americans. They're good at giving us the bad news. I remember some other forum years back with a discussion about cables. Monoprice was mentioned and praised for how it sounded just as good as those "overpriced" cables like Blue Jean. Well the owner of Blue Jean chimed in and explained how Monoprice was selling a finished product for cheaper than he could get the raw materials! That's the point of the tariff - to give smaller companies like Blue Jean a fighting chance. |
@jonesandezekiel, The silenced voices you refer to on those sites were Nazis, white supremacists, and radical nut jobs who used the platforms to incite hate and foment violence against others not like them, as well as using the sites as recruiting platforms. It's one thing to speak a point of view on a subject and another to force it on a society. These jerks wouldn't be around if we were still in the years following WWII. Returning GIs would have solved the problem for us and no one would have objected. They would have been found in alleys, dumpsters, landfills and floating face down in a river. If they survived, they would have woken up in a hospital breathing through a scab. There are not fine people on both sides. All the best, Nonoise |
rsf507 "if you were looking to hire someone to run your company would you hire someone that lost the most $$$$ of any American on his other business adventures? I think not." You fail to comprehend or understand the nature of taxes, financial statements, and P&L calculations the losses you mention are "paper losses" calculated to provide maximum benefit to the Trump organization which is the responsibility of the CEO to secure on behalf of the company these tools, mechanisms, and provisions are part of the American business system and Trump has wisely, expertly, and successfully used these tools. |
What about all those other smart people in years past who were also successful business men? Not to mention all those out there in other countries today who avoid trade wars? Those in the USA who have not lost as much as Donald Trump? Which according to known tax docs to-date is apparently, uh, everyone? Confidence? Surely you jest? We’ll see.... Again, there will not even be endless lawyers and lawsuits to back him up in this one, not that those prevented his past failures that pretty much everyone else who did business with him paid for except him. He’s top notch at selling himself and his brand, I will give him that! But I don't think most of our major trade partners these days are very impressed. |
Still a good thread even though the guy that cuts my grass chimes in from time to time. As I have stated earlier, I have a system made up of components from all over the world. Not 1 USA product can I say, with a high degree of confidence, is COMPLETELY made of USA made components. My speakers are made in Brooklyn USA. I do not know where the wood or the glue is sourced. The equipment to work the wood, the stain, the lacquer, I have no idea. The internal wire, I don't know. A USA made wire from raw materials mined from where, I don't know. The drivers I'm pretty sure are Scandinavian. We need to understand the breadth and depth of the proposed tariffs to truly understand the potential impact. @jonasandezekiel Unfortunately, I do have a small amount of exposure to the political process. While I've never served in office or a governmental role (thank you very much), I've sat at large round tables and exchanged ideas with alot of really bright people from both sides of the aisle over the years. I came away each time with a deeper understanding of the complexities and intricacies these people face on our behalf. I can say with extreme confidence that in the overwhelming majority of issues discussed, really smart people can and do honestly arrive at opposing conclusions with the same data. I don't doubt anyone's motivations but it sure boggles the mind when certain things seem so obvious. Much like audio. |
mapman“trade wars are good, and easy to win” I do not understand the lack of faith, support, and confidence shown by presumably Americans in this thread about they're own Chief Executive (President) who is demonstrably shown through direct evidence to be the most successful Chief Executive (President) the USA has ever had one need only examine his many buildings, clubs, and facilities to see proof of this fact. Some "critics" say but what about his bankruptcies or he doesn't pay taxes but these tools, mechanisms, and provisions are part of the American business system and Trump has wisely, expertly, and successfully used these tools and if he thinks trade wars are easy to win I would expect Americans to have faith in his abilities to plan, complete, and execute his winning strategy as he has his other pursuits, endeavors, and initiatives. |
Actually the new guideline was don’t "bash the president". I’ll agree with that if he will agree to stop bashing everyday citizens that he impacts that happen to challenge him with his low class tweets. By the way, he happened to take an oath to protect all to get the job. Go figure! Hopefully that does not mean no proper criticism. It’s still a free country, right? The president (happens to be Trump at present) is apparently already immune as well from being indicted by our justice department and congress still appears mostly afraid of his tweets. No crown and robe quite yet...... |
Darn, I done got myself edited, well at least not deleted. Got to give it to the moderators they are surely watching this thread. I am enjoying this one immensely for its civility and information but see the offended crowd emerging. Before it turns into a circus, let's just put this to bed. I enjoyed keeping up with this thread but it's being hijacked. |
I don’t know what comes next but on the bright side some say anything that helps assure only another year or so of Donald Trump can’t be all bad. Allegedly..... In other relevant good news, my hifi still sounds good so far despite tariffs. 2/3 of my gear is from good ol’ US companies, mostly Audio Research and Bel Canto in Minnesota and OHM in Brooklyn, but I fear most of the parts even for those come from China and perhaps even Mexico. |
Well, the new Village People trade policy (USMCA) has resulted in around 10% more trade imbalance (the wrong way). So far, so good? Can't wait for the loss of small businesses and the cascading effects if and when the Mexico tariffs go into effect. Big businesses can absorb immediate hits but the mom and pop shops can use the thoughts and prayers approach and see how it works. All the best, Nonoise |
@snapsc. Yes, most certainly KEF and other speaker manufactures would have to have either higher prices or lower profit margins if they moved production to higher labor cost locations. Look at the price difference between KEF's made in the UK Reference line and the rest of their products. No doubt Uk manufacturing costs are a part of that difference. Consumers want the highest quality and greatest product diversity for the lowest possible price. In our own little audio corner of the retail universe, witness the constant carping about "rip off" prices of boutique audio gear with low production volume and high labor costs. The market has responded by giving people what they want by chasing the lowest possible labor costs. Limitless pursuit of that principle has proven to be a bit of a Faustian bargain as far as the social implications though. In the Western world, we've got ever increasing product diversity and a downward trend in the number of middle income people to support the market. It will be interesting to see how the ripple effects from the use of tariffs plays out with people already stretched to the max and struggling to get by. We as a nation aren't accustomed to personal sacrifice in the interests of long term goals. |
Econ 101. Terrifs are no good for anyone or any country. The consumer will get the costs passed on to them. Like it or not, it's a World economy. During the recession we all felt it. US,China, Europe, Japan. If the world economy is strong, we all benefit. If you're such a great deal maker, then make a deal to solve the problem. Then I don't have to worry about my audio equipment prices trippling because it's made of aluminum. |
No doubt if the Chinese or Mexican tariffs last more than a couple months, there will be unintended consequences. For those importing and selling audio products made in China or products made with parts from China, their cost will be going up. Obviously, they will want to pass them along...but often times with higher prices come lower sales so there will also be pressure not to raise prices. If sales are low enough, there could actually be price reductions and possibly, in an almost worst case scenario, layoffs. Often times, it is the biggest companies, those that rely on scale, that produce in China...so, not to pick on KEF, but are we as buyers currently getting a big savings because of production in China? One might argue that we are not, or one might argue that KEF would have to have higher prices if their products were made in Europe or the U.S. Where does that leave us? My experience over the past few years has been that there are really good small American companies making great products here in the U.S. that might actually benefit from tariffs if it means that more people decide to give them a try. Tariffs are not a good thing overall, they are a tool to be used to try to get a more level playing field. They will have unintended consequences. Some will benefit, some will not. In the end, between good small American companies and possibly a more robust preowned market, I suspect we don't really have that much to fret about...from an audio perspective that is. |
@millercarbon ”Perfect should not be the enemy of good, ghasley. So don’t let it be.” I promise, I’m not trying to be hard headed, I’m trying to be objective. I would take good right now knowing that perfect is beyond the reach of the team we have in place trying to get a deal done. Miller, these things aren’t binary. If a tariff is intended to level a particular playing field, that has a chance of smoothing the demand balance here and reasonable people may, just may find an agreeable outcome. But punitive tariffs accompanied by tweets intended to cajole and embarrass and repeated demeaning insults in the press will not succeed. Full stop. We can debate the past and whether the tulip bubble in Holland was a scam or a naturally occurring byproduct of human greed but make no mistake, this particular China won’t lay down and take this abuse. They will simply choose a market where we export to with a product where they have our number and then undercut us there. They will repeat it throughout the world. Its apparent you believe I’m wrong and that we somehow have a secret recipe...unfortunately we don’t. China learned a great deal by closely examining the mistakes made by the Japanese in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and won’t repeat those. We will all learn soon enough that we are woefully unprepared for them calling our bluff. This has as much to do with saving face with the rest of the world than you might think. There is also a great many in the world that want to see the USA lose a bit of our arrogance, they are a little tired of the self righteous rhetoric. We educated their best and brightest at our top business schools and these guys are smart but most importantly, they have a plan and they are patient. I truly wish I was wrong but this won’t end the way you think. |
That's too easy. Use coal to make steel but not to heat water into steam in order to spin a turbine, like the wind does. The underlying logic that seems to defy some here is that steps have to be taken for progress to be made. Subsides have to be shifted in order to do so. Lots of R&D and time will bring costs down, like in any endeavor. No one likes to admit it and they always leave out the military costs of securing and protecting oil resources and reserves. That's one hell of a subsidy but when you honestly factor it in, renewables look like the cheaper way to proceed. Everything needs something else to be made. It doesn't come to us wrapped in a bow. It's a matter of policy and priorities and some sane minds to figure it all out, not some bottom line of a profit driven corporation, answering to it's shareholders, which, the last time I looked, aren't mentioned in the Constitution. All the best, Nonoise |
In order to build wind turbines and blades, it takes steel. Steel production needs coal. Same for electric cars ... made of steel, or aluminum. Make them out of plastic, you say? That takes oil. Solar panels use minerals. Minerals need to be mined from the earth. Mining machinery uses petroleum products and tears up the earth. Can any neo-environmentalist state how green energy can be produced by strictly using only green energy? Frank |
"...automakers like BMW, Volvo, Buick and other makes being made in China, for the Chinese market, with the eventuality that they will export to other parts of the globe." I avoided mentioning it but now when you touched it, Volvo XC 60 used to be produced in China and imported to the USA. It has changed recently. I believe that Volvo S90 is still made only in China. It is sold most everywhere. |
Inna sez ... "Black people made an enormous contribution as well." Little known facts: Duke Ellington composed over 2000 pieces of music, including several symphonies. Freddie Green played rhythm guitar for the Count Basie orchestra for over 50 years and was the driving force behind the orchestra. Charlie Parker never played the same idea twice. Bud Powell was a genius. Dinah Washington sang "Blue Gardenia" better than anyone on the planet before or since. Billie Holliday was a tortured, but beautiful soul. Need I say more. Frank PS: Sorry about getting off topic, but this something I'm really passionate about. |
What China has is automakers like BMW, Volvo, Buick and other makes being made in China, for the Chinese market, with the eventuality that they will export to other parts of the globe. China may be around 5 years behind in chip manufacturing but they have 40% of the global phone market. Saying they live in bunk beds in slave labor is true for some parts of the country but how is it any different for some parts of this country? Ever been to some of the poorer parts of the Appalachians? How about coal country? We had sharecroppers until the ’60s living in deplorable conditions. People said American labor couldn’t build any of the Japanese or German models here because of the unskilled labor but we build them to the same standard as their home countries. Just wait and see how China fares in the near term as they ramp up their industries even more. How is it that they can send 12GW up to 3,293 kilometers and the best we can do is 1.5 GW for about 700 kilometers? They built the lines so their coal plants can send power across the country but instead, are going to solar and wind to send power back to the area of the coal plants. They employ UHVDC (high voltage direct current transmission) which is more stable and flexible bypassing unsynchronized AC systems. The biggest HVDC line we have was built in 1961, in California, and operates at 500KV, and hasn't been improved much since it's inception. To make it better would mean some others wouldn't fare that well anymore. Only Walmart is bigger than the company that runs their power grids, State Grid. India is using their tech and Oklahoma wind farms tried to use it to send power but Arkansas, back by this administration, killed the project to single out and support more coal plant operations using the less efficient system. It would have reduced emissions by up to 80% at no extra cost but someone is playing favorites. All the best, Nonoise |
"China is not like Germany. They don’t have a workforce so uber educated and skilled they can not only design but also build a Porsche." What Germany does not have is uber-educated skilled workforce. At least not in needed numbers. What China does have is the most Porsches sold in the world. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/19/germany-passes-immigration-law-to-lure-non-eu-skilled-... https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallback/en/company/porsche-vehicle-deliveries-third-quarter-2018-clear... |
@millercarbon I respectfully disagree with your tariff example. On paper, a tariff will force parity between a domestic product and an imported one. In theory, the perfect tariff will force the price of the imported product either at or above the price of the domestic product. In practice though, a tariff is rarely levied to attempt to reach parity. It is usually punitive in nature and, therefore, it has the effect of raising prices because in a one to one commodity play, the domestic producer gains pricing power and they usually take advantage of the opportunity, like in my steel example earlier in the thread. Now, since we are talking audio, there are so many players in the market here, there is zero chance it would influence overall prices. Make no mistake though, China won’t pay 1 wafer thin dime in tariffs, the American consumer will. Or not. As many have already figured out, I tend to swim against the current from time to time. When I lived in a certain southern state 20 years ago and the local deacons were trying to ban record stores from selling what they called gangster rap, I went into a record store/best buy type of store and bought about $500 worth of the stuff. Never took the plastic off of them but I despise over reach so I did it. I then dropped them off at the youth center....hope it didn’t ruin the kids! What concerns me most are companies like Primaluna. While I dont own any PL gear, those who do consider the quality and service to exceed alot of other offerings. What about American companies like Peachtree or Audioengine. Would a tariff be levied on an American company like Upscale Audio? What about a Dutch company like Primaluna who happens to manufacture in China? It would be a shame though because some entry level or gateway gear is built in China. I have an Auralic streamer which is pretty good and I’ve heard many enjoy their Chinese made dacs, speakers and amps. Whatever the case, I doubt there will be tariffs placed on audio gear unless someone is distracted by a shiny object tossed into the room. |
^^^ Well, I have to hand it to the Jewish people. They certainly have made a monumental contribution to the music of all stripes. Classical, composition, conducting, playing ... and a huge contribution to my favorite music, jazz. If I were Jewish, I’d be mighty proud of that heritage. I know my many Jewish friends certainly are. Here’s a list of famous Jewish composers: *lol* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_list_of_Italian_classical_composers Z More Jewish composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_composers More Jewish composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_composers_of_African_descent Music comes from the human soul and is a gift from The Spirit. It knows of no ethnic boundaries. Frank |
especially if you are bashing the President of the United States. WOO HOO!!! Please take the topic back to audio or this thread will be closed. My pleasure! The thing about American made audio components, an awful lot of the best stuff in the world is made right here. Synergistic, VPI, McCormack, Graham, just a few that come to mind. Not that the rest of the world doesn't make some damn fine gear too. But the subject was tariffs. And I could be mistaken but it sure seems like if we are talking tariffs then we're talking pretty much China. And if we're talking China then we're no longer talking about anything having to do with expertise. All those American companies, they didn't just build it here. They designed it here. But then when it comes time to manufacture some- not all, some- find if what they need to have done is mindless enough then they can have it done more cheaply elsewhere. Most of those other places though, they aren't cheap because they are so much more productive. China is not like Germany. They don't have a workforce so uber educated and skilled they can not only design but also build a Porsche. No. What they have is cheap mostly unskilled to lower skilled labor. Cheap labor. Which is why tariffs are good. Good for the US. Good for China, too. Because, in the US, raising the price of imports makes it less advantageous to off-shore jobs, in other words incentivizes keeping those jobs right here where they benefit Americans. Americans who can then afford to buy more high end audio. But tariffs also benefit China. One effect of tariffs is to force a higher selling price here. The only way those products will justify the higher price is by being better. That means raising quality. That means being more productive. Either way it means incentivizing the Chinese to become even more skilled. Not sure if people know this, even though they do advertise it, but Synergistic Research builds all their products right here in the USA. Skilled American workers. Just in the last week I have totally by accident run across two people who worked there. These are real jobs. Jobs that pay enough to live on. Not live a life of subsistence crammed into bunk beds one floor up from the factory, which is how the workers who built my Melody integrated amp live. The guys I talked to, they don't work there now. They probably have much better jobs now. Just like the Chinese will some day. Thanks in part to our tariffs. |
