Synergistic Red Fuse ...

Back at ya, Georgie Boy, except in your case it’s an epidemic of a propensity for density.

Have a nice day, mate

Fascination found by fuse fanciers, followed by the ubiquitous fractious, foisting their fractured, "facts." A pause, to proffer preferred recorded programs, and a descension into an alliteration altercation. Pity the poor audio pupil, trying to tap into truth through this tedium.

Wow, I came here to ask a serious question but instead I was surprised to read Geoff's post,

"We have testimony/evidence of fuses sounding different depending on direction from almost everyone who has actually listened,"

since I thought we settled the issue of testimony vs. fact last year.  
For example, there was testimony/evidence that witches were living in Salem MA years ago too and that didn't turn out so well, although it did lead to the phrase "witch hunt." 
Seriously Geoff, it is good to see you are healthy and still beating the directional drum as it relates to a 1.25-inch long piece of wire.
I am glad to be one of the "almost" in the "almost everyone" club because all that turning around of fuses would probably wear out both me and my fuse holders.

Let us know when you finally figure out the difference between evidence and proof. Also let us know when your hearing improves. Sorry to learn of your disability.

Geeze Geoff, 

"let us know when your hearing improves"

That one is so overused.  What's next, are you going to tell me my system is not resolving enough to display the life-changing sonic improvements that occur when one's fuses are oriented in the proper direction?  
Hey, isn't it about time for SR to debut a new colored fuse?
How about an iridescent, rainbow colored "Unicorn" fuse that, when installed by a breast-bearing virgin, will magically heal whatever ails your system and, when oriented with the horn pointed in the direction of photon travel, will never blow.....wait, "never blow" ok scratch that idea.  If SR wants to actually join the Unicorn Club, a lot of their fuses are going to have to blow. 

On a more serious note, has anyone here heard the Acme Audio Labs Silver Ceramic Fuse? You can purchase it  Cryogenically Treated with "Special Sauce" for $16 each, or $12 sans sauce.  Any opinions about this el-cheapo priced almost-audiophile fuse?  Is it at least 1/10 as good sounding as the SR Black, since it is 1/10 the price?

A cap guy here on AudioGon uses the Acme Labs and told me he likes them alot. Me, Myself and I use N52 magnets not fuses that are also Cryogenically Treated 2 times because I am a creature of excess. Tom

Just checked out their site and noticed a claim that some products with no inrush protection tends to blow ceramic fuses and to try the cheaper product first. Could that account for some here experiencing blown fuses and having to go up a notch in rating?

Anyway, at the price, it's worth a try for those in doubt. Also, one can contact any of the dealers listed and see what their take is on it.

All the best,
Nonoise

I have 2 Acme Audio wall outlets, also silver plated, here now but don’t use them as I’m independent of house AC. I also had one of their silver plated fuse holders way back when. Super Duper! Say, wasn’t Acme Audio Bob Crump’s company along with TG Audio? I’m pretty sure I got my first two Acme wall outlets from him back in 2000, they’re most likely still at my previous abode. The name Acme of course comes from the company the coyote in Roadrunner cartoons would send away to for all those cool contraptions like rocket powered skates and so forth.

Theaudiotweak, you’re so funny! What fuses do I use? Ha ha ha

Geoff

What you say  in public probably isn't what you use in your play pen at your family crib...or patio home . If you use a battery on your supply side your system will sound better when your dc is placed upon and grounded on a Sistrum platform and not on a spring board thingie. Chemistry within a battery is able to reach its point of stasis on a grounded platform such as Sistrum rather than one that reacts on multiple axis..like a sippie cup in the hands of a 70 year old walking out to get their mail. I am getting close but still sniff my wine out of a glass and am able to retreive my mail everyday on my daily pass. Tom

What I say in public is not what I do at home? Wow! Whoa! Did you really say that? What on Earth are you going on about? I dare say we have a brand new conspiracy. You saw it here first, folks. Besides spring board thingies as you call them are better than the Sistrum ever thought of being. That’s why LIGO the experiment to detect gravity waves uses uh, springy things. Besides simple "spring board thingies" are generally a one-axis pony, anyway. Pretty sure I can tell when you’re saying something wrong. It’s when your mouth moves. I will admit I like it when you use $50 words like stasis and shear.

Have you installed a LIGO in your home yet? Send us a greeting card with a picture of your play pen atop a LIGO.  You cannot replicate LIGO for less than a billion and your home owners ass..wont allow you to perform such an impossible task as you may wake a neighbor performing the install..When you play loud music in the presense of LIGO...the compession waves attack your device..as they do thru any solid. So in any audio system other than yours (headphones) LIGO would retain the crap rather than providing a high speed exit to ground. Tom

Whoa! Hey, is there like a full moon out tonight? 

I miswrote previous.

So with LIGO you could not place and playback any audio system in the same room as LIGO ..without IT being corrupted by the transmission of any shear wave or compressive wave..For LIGO to succeed outside its container it must duplicate that same containment where ever it travels. In your home with electronics that generate wave types from transformers motors and speakers LIGO would be a storage device for such wave types. Those devices would include diaphragms contained inside headphones and any device that has a power source or motor to drive those. They all generate shear waves and compressive waves as part of their motion .

Think about the possibility of eliminating all forms of motion..compressive and shear..then what Geoff?.Can you hear that? Anything.....Tom

Mmm, been a while since I've been here,  however,  question,  Has any one tried exotic fuses in speaker's and received  exceptional sound improvement? 

theaudiotweak
I miswrote previous.

So with LIGO you could not place and playback any audio system in the same room as LIGO ..without IT being corrupted by the transmission of any shear wave or compressive wave..For LIGO to succeed outside its container it must duplicate that same containment where ever it travels. In your home with electronics that generate wave types from transformers motors and speakers LIGO would be a storage device for such wave types. Those devices would include diaphragms contained inside headphones and any device that has a power source or motor to drive those. They all generate shear waves and compressive waves as part of their motion .

Think about the possibility of eliminating all forms of motion..compressive and shear..then what Geoff?.Can you hear that? Anything.....Tom

I'm not sure what you’re going on about. LIGO’s extremely comprehensive vibration isolation system(s) are intended to reduce background mechanical noise to the point where the experiment is sufficiently sensitive to differentiate gravity waves, which are extraordinarily minute, from the background noise. What is the background noise I’m talking about? Well, in the case of LIGO - way out in the boondocks - that’s primarily seismic type mechanical noise produced by Earth crust motion (microseismic vibration), the primary energy of which is located down around 0 to 3 Hz. Since the interferometer I.e., laser shoots down a tunnel around 3 km long to a mirror and back, there's plenty of room for error. Therefore, extremely low resonant frequencies Fr for the isolating systems are required. So, if you could construct a LIGO at home you could obtain superior audio performance. How much is good enough? You might have to deal with acoustic waves (which are also mechanical in nature) and any residual noise on the top plate of isolation devices however that is produced with damping.

LIGO Also employs very robust vacuums around test equipment, recall vacuums are excellent at NOT transmitting mechanical noise. When I was in the exhibit with Mapleshade he had a brand spanking new Nachamichi Dragon CD player with separate DAC. The player had the capability of forming a relatively good vacuum seal around the CD transport when a CD was played. The entire Nachamichi system was isolated on my 6 degree of freedom Sub Hertz Nimbus Platform, the top plate of which employee special and highly effective dampers to deal with residual vibration on the top plate. Sort of a precursor to LIGO you could say, since that was just around the time LIGO began about 20 years ago.

So would the vacuum of LIGO be able to prevent electron motion and its resulting vibration  generated externally from an alternating current on a filament inside a fuse ?

While the ac signal is not the smallest or largest wave motion it is the first in line of the many that will follow. Heck many audio companies claim the source is the most important of signals...could it be the ac fuse..is so vital as it is the first component inside most audio devices. 
Hanging on this hair thin element is an 8 gauge power cord ..what kinda battle of scale and competing forces is that one. Just a projected image..Tom

TheAudioTweak 5-21-2017
Hanging on this hair thin element is an 8 gauge power cord ..what kinda battle of scale and competing forces is that one. Just a projected image..Tom

That is a good point. And the resistance of a typical mains fuse will in fact be a bit higher than the resistance of an 8 gauge power cord of typical length. But to provide some perspective from a quantitative standpoint:

The combined resistance of the hot and neutral conductors of a six foot 8 gauge power cord is about 0.0075 ohms. A 6.3 x 32 mm Littelfuse series 313 glass fuse rated at 5 amps and 250 volts has a specified "cold" resistance (i.e., its resistance when conducting negligible current) of 0.0214 ohms. The resistance of the fuse will presumably rise slightly when conducting a typical amount of current, say 2 amps for a fuse having a 5 amp rating. So let’s call its resistance 0.04 ohms. (That would seem to be a reasonable assumption given that 0.04 ohms is almost exactly the same value that is indicated in the HiFi Tuning paper for a "standard" 5 amp 6.3 x 32 mm ceramic fuse when conducting 3 amps). 0.04 ohms x 2 amps results in a voltage drop of 0.08 volts. The 0.0075 ohm resistance of the 8 gauge power cord x 2 amps results in a voltage drop of 0.015 volts, substantially less than the voltage drop of the fuse.

Therefore if the incoming line voltage is 120 volts, the 8 gauge power cord would reduce the voltage seen by the component to 119.985 volts. The Littelfuse would reduce it further to 119.905 volts.

Will the overall reduction of approximately 0.1 volts have audible consequences? It seems unlikely, considering that at most locations line voltages probably fluctuate a good deal more than that from time to time, especially between daytime and nighttime. But I suppose it could conceivably be marginally significant in some cases, especially if the particular component being powered does not have regulated DC power supplies (as in the case of most power amplifiers).

On the other hand, though, **even if** the 0.1 volt drop does have audible consequences, if the line voltage at the particular location happens to be higher than the voltage the component was designed to sound best at (presumably 120 volts in the case of most components that are intended to be used in the USA and other 120 volt countries), that voltage loss might actually be advantageous. And the somewhat lower resistance of the HiFi Tuning 6.3 x 32 mm 5 amp Gold Cryo fuse (about 0.013 ohms when conducting 3 amps, as indicated in their comparison test paper) might actually be disadvantageous.

Regards,
-- Al

A fuse that’s old and has seen many switch on cycles will have far more effect " top link", same fuse, new on the left after many cycles far right.
Just put in a new quality $2 fuse as Almarg has "bottom link" to. And you’ll have what a new >$100+ fuse will give.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg

http://www.digikey.com/products/en/circuit-protection/fuses/139

Cheers George

theaudiotweak
So would the vacuum of LIGO be able to prevent electron motion and its resulting vibration generated externally from an alternating current on a filament inside a fuse?

>>>>>>>The LIGO vacuum is intended as another seismic vibration *stage* - it’s not a cure all. If you wish to prevent 60 HZ hum in AC power cord or in the fuse just use *damping*. It’s not rocket science. Whereas robust vibration isolation is more complicated, no so easy. In fact that’s precisely what a lot of the modern audiophiles fuses use to address vibration - damping. Hel-loo! That’s why you will see in the HiFi Tuning data results ceramic fuses generally sound better because they don’t vibrate as much as glass. I myself would never think of leaving fuses undamped, same goes for anything carring a signal that is vulnerable to vibration, or that produces vibration, you know, like transformers and capacitors. But I digress. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, one trusts.

Theaudiotweak
While the ac signal is not the smallest or largest wave motion it is the first in line of the many that will follow. Heck many audio companies claim the source is the most important of signals...could it be the ac fuse..is so vital as it is the first component inside most audio devices.
Hanging on this hair thin element is an 8 gauge power cord ..what kinda battle of scale and competing forces is that one. Just a projected image..Tom

>>>>>>If you’re worried about induced vibration of some kind use damping. You’ve got much bigger problems with external vibration and vibration produced by motors and transformers. Case solved. Just because a signal is a wave doesn't necessarily mean it vibrates. 

Geoff ,

Certainly you must remember I don't use fuses they were replaced long ago with magnets in 2008 and they don't have a filament that will vibrate and they are not damped but they are direct coupled ..I was just checking..to see if you were still reading from the same old set of cue cards..and you are. 

I don't use damping materials in my system. Everything is direct coupled. My speaker drivers are damped by their surrounds and those will soon be augmented with devices to reduce and remove reflected interference. You cannot achieve this with damping. Damping is an overused term and a work around for the real solutions..keep looking 

The LIGO system cannot be a reality in an active household. Example turning on the bathroom fan to remove the after effects of compression waves generated..both will generate shear waves in your LIGO system which is now out of its own protective vacuum...

 Tom

 

Al,

Thanks for your knowledge and response!

The answer to find a better fuse might be in some dynamic testing method which you may have some knowledge of rather than just the standard heat rise and current capacity that I have read about.

Tom

The answer to find a better fuse might be in some dynamic testing method 

Only "maybe" if it looks like the same one on the right after many switch on cycles and carbon build up, then just buy a new one for $2.
https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg

Cheers George
 

Tom, you are obviously from the old Michael Green school of "let the vibrations free to roam." I am from the school of "the only vibration is a dead vibration." You seem to be completely ignoring seismic vibrations, I.e., structureborne vibration. That’s exactly what the Michael Green school preaches. The Michael Green school has an almost fanatical aversion to damping, just like you. You come from a long line of naysayers. The Michael Green school preaches that the audio signal is vibration - just like you do - and he has same almost cultish argument that you do - that because the audio signal is a wave it must be vibration, so that damping kills the audio signal, kills the sound. It’s like you two guys were joined at the waist.

Al,

Thanks for your knowledge and response!

The answer to find a better fuse might be in some dynamic testing method which you may have some knowledge of rather than just the standard heat rise and current capacity that I have read about.

Tom

Thank you, Tom. I have no particular knowledge of dynamic testing methods which may be applicable to fuses. And the very comprehensive datasheet (linked here) for the Littelfuse series 313 fuses, one of which I used as an example in my previous post, makes no mention of any such tests.

By the way, FWIW that document does indicate that those fuses are compliant with various MIL-STDs (military standards) for vibration, as well as for thermal shock, humidity, and salt spray. Although of course those standards are intended to assure reliability under adverse conditions, not to assure good sonics in an audio system.

But regarding dynamic behavior, as indicated in the example in my previous post the resistance of a fuse will of course fluctuate somewhat in response to fluctuations in the current it is conducting. And it wouldn’t surprise me if those fluctuations had audible consequences in the case of a speaker fuse, or a fuse used in the output stage of a power amplifier or integrated amplifier. Depending in part on how much the designer is able to "derate" the fuse in the particular application (meaning how much margin is provided between the current rating of the fuse and the actual amount of current it conducts in the particular application). Conceivably also in the case of a mains fuse in a class AB or class D power amplifier or integrated amplifier (most of which do not have voltage regulated DC supplies for their output stages). But not in the case of virtually all other components, since in virtually all other applications (including preamps, DACs, source components, and mains fuses in class A amplifiers) the current conducted by a fuse is essentially constant all the time.

One further point, btw, to add perspective to the 0.08 volt drop in the resistance of the fuse I used as an example in my previous post. It’s worth noting that in the USA AC line voltages are considered to be in spec if they are anywhere within a 12 volt range, between 114 and 126 volts at the circuit breaker panel.

Regards,
-- Al

Geoff

As your memory has gone it must now suffer from partition and isolation from previous responses..That's the only point of isolation I agree with you on.  Please remember that.  

I will say again I never met or conversed with Green in any way or in any fashion period..I am not a joiner or a schooler..

I look for workarounds and solutions to materials and construction methods used in my line of work with musical instruments and audio. I employ materials and methods which provide additional reactance as well as enhanced direction for vibration to travel...and much less roaming.These methods increase acoustic output and dynamics while at the same time reduce hand and arm fatigue needed to play the instrument. Depending on the instrument also the lungs.

With a friend and associate we have identified wave types that cause interference and therefore inefficiencies  in some materials and objects. We are at work on ways to reduce and eliminate those type. Isolation methods your school suggests do not and cannot separate out the needed wave portion from the one that causes interference. You need to start looking again as you stopped decades ago.  Tom

Theaudiotweak
With a friend and associate we have identified wave types that cause interference and therefore inefficiencies in some materials and objects. We are at work on ways to reduce and eliminate those type. Isolation methods your school suggests do not and cannot separate out the needed wave portion from the one that causes interference. You need to start looking again as you stopped decades ago. Tom

>>>>>All I can say at this point is you and your friend are on a witch hunt, a wild goose chase. It’s all been identified. If there was anything left to discover trust me, LIGO would have found it and I would have found it. If there was any form of wave or vibration, anything physical, that could have gotten through and NOT been annihilated by LIGO’s isolation system, LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves that have an amplitude of an atomic nucleus. But they DID detect them. You are in denial. You actually believe, like Michael Green, that the audio signal is vibration. And you believe in coupling as opposed to isolation and damping. Whether you knew him or not you’re two peas in a pod. So it’s no wonder you’re off on a wild goose chase. Your news is fake!

Geoff

You are part of the obstacle to the increase of resolution..You used the descriptive term   "annihilated "  in context to how LIGO operates and that's okay with me in that science.  As for the science of sound and your own personal methods I will use the word "homogeneity" to describe how you lump all wave types including those needed for accurate reproduction into a blender. The soup sandwich you ascribe to will not allow for one single ingredient to be removed...and that single unit in the soup sandwich is the main problem. Unlike your play doll LIGO ..you..meaning Geoff can Not detect and separate this ingredient from the mix. We all have access to all the same clues in the same clue book, butt you Cannot see them and therefore are clueless..

Tom

Tom, Wow! That’s amazing! I can’t believe it! That’s exactly what Michael Green would have said. You’re just like him. You’re his clone and don’t know it. 😬

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Old audiophile axiom

God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. - Judge Judy

Almarg
By the way, FWIW that document does indicate that those fuses are compliant with various MIL-STDs (military standards) for vibration, as well as for thermal shock, humidity, and salt spray. Although of course those standards are intended to assure reliability under adverse conditions, not to assure good sonics in an audio system.

Good point. 😀 Gosh, I wonder if NASA manned missions test for good sonics in electrical systems....hey, I know! Let's get AES to do fuse testing. 😛

Almarg
To give some perspective to the 0.08 volt drop in the resistance of the fuse I used as an example in my previous post. It’s worth noting that in the USA AC line voltages are considered to be in spec if they are anywhere within a 12 volt range, between 114 and 126 volts at the circuit breaker panel.

Why is that worth noting? Seems totally irrelevant. It actually sounds like the Nixon argument regarding the missing 18 minutes on the Watergate tapes, that compared to the total time of audio on the tapes 18 minutes is insignificant. 😃

I am wondering about Frank. I wrote to him, have not heard back.  

same here.  Hope he just needs more time to recover.

Thoughts and prayers out for Frank.   Looking forward to the return of his jovial self.

Great to see you back here, Mapman. Many here have noticed your absence in the past few months. Hope all is going ok for you and the family. As well as for Frank, of course.

Best regards,
-- Al

Hi, guys.

Thanks for the kind thoughts. This has been a real ass kicker.  I'm still in rehab and hope to be home again on Friday. Two repaired heart valves and a brand new aortic valve from a pig. Oink, oink!  Oxygen is flowing nicely through the body and internal organs now. I can breathe  ... I can breathe! 

mapman

You have been missed.

Thanks guys.  Been taking a break from these parts but all  is well.      Papa, good to hear from you.   Maybe with the new ticker you'll be able to hear fuses even better now?  :^)

   

Mapman  ... 

Actually I believe that the hearing has improved.  Before the surgery,  I could hear a pulse in the left ear  ... swish, swish, swish.  That's all gone now. Even with the swishing I could hear the direction of the fuses  *lol* 

Glad to have you back Frank. Your ears must be quite acute if you could hear the blood flowing from a faulty valve. No one here can now question your aural acuity!

As for the donor of you new aortic valve, you're in great company since Arnold Schwarzenegger had the same model installed in his heart as well. Just don't do any action movies for a while. 😃😃

All the best,
Nonoise

Frank awesome to hear from you and glad the recovery is going well! And a special thanks for interrupting the Geoffkait vs TheAudioTweak show! :-P

Thanks for the good report, Frank.  You're going to feel twenty years younger.  

Good to see you are back Frank.  Sounds like improved hearing will be a very pleasant side benefit.

Great to have you back Frank.

Welcome back Frank. You were missed.

Thanks, guys.  This time away has given me a lot of time to rethink this audio hobby of ours.  I'll be sharing those thoughts after I'm home for a few days.  It has to do with no rights  and no wrongs. Just different approaches not necessarily trying to reach the same goal.  

Frank 

Cool Frank I look forward to hearing your thoughts, nothing like a bit of removal and time laid up to think to bring a fresh perspective on things. Perhaps a small silver lining to your situation.

Damage Control! Damage Control! Report to bridge!