Synergistic Red Fuse ...
Hi Wig, did you compare the AH to the 20 or the Red, or both? Did you use them in source components, amplifiers or both? I have heard good things about the AH fuses but they sure are expensive. I only justified buying/trying a couple of Reds because I took advantage of the Partsconnexion 25 percent off sale. A straight-up $117 per fuse is a lot, especially when I simply have not heard much difference between fuses in my system. Just curious as to how you used them to achieve the best effect. Thanks PS: BTW, very nice system. I'll bet the VAC integrated sounds great with the AZ Crescendos. |
You guys are killing me.....especially you wig, when you say; The Red/20 are much thinner sounding and bright in comparison to the AHs which are much fuller and natural sounding...Of course, I am looking for a little more in the "fuller and natural sounding" department. It seems like we go through this every time someone comes out with a new fuse. I have so many fuses in so little gear. The stupid DAC takes dual 1A fuses on the input and then has three 250mA internal fuses, one to each power supply; My amp has four, 10A rail fuses but nothing on the line-in; the server uses dual 2A fuses; and the preamp, although two pieces, thankfully only uses one fuse. The three reds I tried internally in the DAC were relatively easy to absorb since I still had the stock fuses installed and Partsconnexion is still having a 25 percent sale, but unfortunately they don't sell AH fuses. If I start replacing fuses in the other gear, I will be replacing either HiFi Tuning Silver Star or Furutech fuses, so I would be replacing perfectly good after market fuses. To the AH fuse users, is the biggest improvement in replacing amplification fuses, or fuses in source/front end components? Sheesh...four of them in my amp would cost me about $500! I may go back to using ProGold on the ends of my fuses, wrapping them in teflon tape, and calling it good. My other option is to drill tiny holes in standard fuses, and fill them with beeswax. That will save me $2,100 on the 12 fuses that I need. Are the AH fuses really that good? |
If I owned a Pass Labs amplifier, I would definitely add fuses...the more the better...and I would try all of the same type and then one of each, I would also try them in series and then in parallel, and try them in each of two directions and in different orders. Now I remember why I never bought a Pass Labs amplifier. |
Geoff, I have 4, 10A fast-blow fuses in my big amp. I have a better chance of winning powerball than getting all the directions correct at the same time, and there is no f'in way I am going to sit around and try listening to every permutation. The amp manufacturer used Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in the amp, and showed me which way to orient them based on their arrows and the direction of electricity flow. If the SR fuses had an orientation indicator (i.e., arrow) then I would know how to orient them. If SR is going to charge $100 bucks for a fuse, it seems they would take the time to test which direction their fuses sound best and then label them. I am not saying they should test every fuse but, IF this direction thing is true, there must be a reason they sound better in a certain orientation and it must have to do with manufacturing since the parts at each end are the same. So, what is left, wire direction, which end gets soldered first, which direction they run their 2,000,000 volts of Quantum Tunneling electricity, what else? If SR can figure out which of those things affects directivity, then they would know which direction to paint an arrow on the fuse since they are all presumably manufactured in a sequenced manner. Some might say the absence of an arrow on their fuses indicates they think the orientation issue is BS. OTOH, watching audiophiles fumble with the direction of fuses probably gives them a laugh or two. |
"OK, try this one......remove the "red fuse" and bridge out he the fuse holder with some copper wire,"Did you try reversing the direction of your wire? Maybe it was backward. |
Ironically I do not uses fuses in my current set up.Yes Geoff, the irony of how much time you have spent posting to fuse threads for someone who does not use fuses is duly noted. Maybe consider posting your system on Audiogon so readers can better understand your point of reference when you describe what you hear, or what components or accessories you believe to render a sonic difference. |
Wolf, I agree that the potential benefit of a fuse on our gear is dubious, but I disagree with assigning any responsibility to Audiogon to "protect" us from our interpretation of a manufacturer's advertising or from our interpretation of posts made by other members here. The approaches used are out of the marketing 101 playbook and pervade just about every product we consume. None of it is that surprising or unique. |
It seems this thread has run its course with respect to believers and naysayers, with all the parties planted firmly on one side or the other, except Geoff who has no fuses in his Walkman yet enjoys working the bellows to keep the fire hot. Any attempts at humor seem to have evaporated like the magic dust inside of a blown “audiophile” fuse. With respect to Oregonpapa, the original question he posted was “Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?” Therefore, this thread was never intended to be an argument over the scientific validity of "audiophile" fuse technology but rather a discussion of what people do hear. I have tried the SR reds but didn’t hear the “bang for my buck” so I am mostly happy using UL/CSA Eaton Bussmann type fuses. I think this thread is best left to those who have discerned sonic improvements from installing “audiophile” fuses in their hi-fi systems, and from orienting those fuses so the half-inch fuse wire is pointed in the right direction. Agreeing to disagree can be a reasonable resolution. |
contradictory views and evidence against them..... Many high end interconnects and speaker cables are marked for directionality and have been for 25 years. High end fuses have been marked for directionality for more than 10 years.This is evidence of nothing other than ink on fuse covers and cable jackets....Perry Mason |
Geoffkait: "testimony is not fact or proof"Finally, we agree. So, my question is, if "the testimony of one thousand audiophiles" is not fact or proof, then is it "mere group hysteria?" Geoffkait: "How is marking cables or fuses for direction a marketing ploy? Share, share..."Actually, my comment was that "confusing evidence with proof" is "the essence of audio cable marketing 101." In the marketing of audio cables and accessories, "evidence" is sometimes mistaken for science and "testimony" for fact. Audiophiles like tweaky science stuff like green pens, magic dots, crystals, 6-degree of motion footers, quantum tunneling, cryogenic treatment of anything using nitrogen, or the poor man's version of cryo - i.e., putting CDs in the freezer, the concept of grainless boundaries, draining vibrations and line-noise to an "earth-ground," ultra-purity materials using as many 9's as possible without someone calling BS, anything harder, denser or stronger than something else, exotic materials such as palladium, graphene, resin, and any materials used in space shuttles, advanced military rockets or nuclear submarines, oh, and they like the idea of "transforming" the sound of their rigs by something so simple as orienting a cable or fuse in its "proper" direction. If you pile enough technical jargon in one place you can pretty much use that as copy to sell audiophiles just about anything but, Geoff, you don't need me to tell you that. This is not quite the most fun I have had today but it is probably about time for this thread to return to its regularly scheduled programing....it was doing so well before the negative waves crashed the party again. Why don't you knock it off with the negative waves, Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here, Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change, Oddball to Moriarty....Kelly's Heroes |
at 8 times the price of standard issue fusesWolf, you left a zero off of your price comparison factor. I pay about $1.50 for Cooper/Bussmann glass fuses or, if I splurge, about $3 for their ceramic body fuses. Al, I agree with you about the whole fuse thing...... http://orig05.deviantart.net/f16b/f/2014/142/7/e/fleetwood_mac_mystery_to_me_by_jonowens-d7j8rew.jpg |
Geoff... Hey, didn’t we solve the directional thingie a while back in this thread with Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion?"Solve" is such an absolute word in audiophile land where so much is uncharted and unexplainable. Do we need to revisit our previous discussion regarding not confusing testimony with fact? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears a bunch of dudes on this thread, without mentioning any names, were somehow left off the distribution list for the memo regarding Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion.As an update to all the "dudes," are you referring to this memo... "Warren Gehl of Audio Research, who listens to every product before it leaves the factory, not only hears differences among different fuses, but he has found that they sound different depending on the orientation within the socket, and he changes their direction as he sees fit."or this one....
Does Warren ever explain how the "metallurgy situation" ends up manifesting itself as an "electrical one" so it can actually affect what someone hears from their system? I don't doubt that the grain in a wire could be affected by the extrusion process, and you may even be able to see that effect under an electron microscope, but given that the typical resistance variation of the one inch of thin wire in the typical "audiophile" fuse (such as the HFT gold or the Isoclean fuses measured and reported by HiFi Tuning) was about 1 mOhms or in some cases much less, which is about 0.001 Ohms or less, it is still a mystery to me how that minuscule amount of difference could possibly account for a noticeable, much less "dramatic" or "repeatable," difference/improvement of the sound of one's system, especially given the much greater resistances attributable to all the other wiring, parts and power supplies in a system's components, resistances of cables connecting the components, and variations in residential power. And yes, I have tried multiples of the fuses including HFT, Isoclean, Furutech and SR Red, and yes I have rotated them, and yes I still have my hearing, and no I am not listening on a walkman, but yet - nada..... Roger Modjeski may have put it best, "If a butterfly flew by.....we might see a bigger difference"Happy New Year to all |
I would think if there was any danger of the fuses damaging the equipment neither Steve Deckert of Decware nor Paul McGowan of PS Audio would recommend them in their products.This reminded me of a conversation I had with the folks over at Ayre several years ago about some of their equipment I owned. As a major manufacturer of audio equipment in the USA, Ayre is well-known for both their consistent design philosophies and for the importance they place on listening tests in the final "voicing" of their broad range of products. We were discussing "audiophile" fuses and I was told their internal discussions had yet to define how they might respond to the warranty coverage of their gear, if damage was determined to have occurred because the equipment was not adequately protected by such fuses. At that time, I remember discussing that the concern was related to the lack of testing and potential consistency issues with the aftermarket fuses, compared to the tried and true Bussmann and Little type fuses. To be clear, I have no idea of Ayre's current viewpoint on aftermarket or audiophile fuses. Based on the quality of their equipment, I doubt a small variance in fuse value would put their equipment at risk and, based on the quality of their reputation, I suspect they may very well cover damage to their still-under-warranty equipment, even if an aftermarket audiophile fuse was used, with the exception of gross negligence. The point of this post is that, even a few short years ago, a top manufacturer not only did not embrace the use of audiophile fuses in their gear, but showed some concern for the suitability of such fuses to do the job intended. OTOH, and in fairness of an opposing viewpoint, I have done several projects with Steve McCormack, another well-respected designer of excellent sounding electronic equipment, and he embraces the differences/improvements he hears from audiophile fuses and includes them in his products. In my experience, he does not recommend just one type/manufacturer, but instead has determined that different fuses can work best in different locations within the equipment (i.e., line fuses vs. rail fuses), so he uses the fuse he believes sound best for the specific application. |
I get suspicious and a little anxious when people start trying to separate the "real audiophiles" from the "not-real (fake?) audiophiles." What if I don’t make the cut? Will I need a new uniform? Will I be forced to start listening to my music on a portable player.....or Walkman? Yikes! Is there a "real audiophile" refresher course? Do "real audiophiles" need to meet an annual quota of PDHs to maintain eligibility? Can "real audiophiles" maintain their status by purchasing one tweak per year...per quarter...who has the rule book? |
Has anyone on this forum broke open an SR black fuse and analyzed what it is made of and constructed?What are you trying to do, ruin a good thread? For Pete's sake, what is everyone going to write about if these are nothing more than ceramic-body, sand-filled, Bussman type fuses? All the build-up, all the suspense, all the speculation - what new color will SA choose for their next "greatest sounding ever" fuse causing all fusers to sell-off and buy-up; how will we be "blinded by science" with how a new fuse inexplicably breaks barriers never thought possible when applying simple physics, natural laws, and scientific principles; what types of bees will AM use next....all the possibilities of profound system improvements to be gained by adding "audiophile approved" fuses, lost in the blink of a voltage surge. A similar thing happened when some cable folks began to open up their cables....you mean cables are nothing more than wire soldered or crimped to connectors that I can purchase from on-line vendors? It was like finding out there is no Santa Claus. What's left to believe in? |
Wow, I came here to ask a serious question but instead I was surprised to read Geoff's post, "We have testimony/evidence of fuses sounding different depending on direction from almost everyone who has actually listened,"since I thought we settled the issue of testimony vs. fact last year. For example, there was testimony/evidence that witches were living in Salem MA years ago too and that didn't turn out so well, although it did lead to the phrase "witch hunt." Seriously Geoff, it is good to see you are healthy and still beating the directional drum as it relates to a 1.25-inch long piece of wire. I am glad to be one of the "almost" in the "almost everyone" club because all that turning around of fuses would probably wear out both me and my fuse holders. |
Geeze Geoff, "let us know when your hearing improves"That one is so overused. What's next, are you going to tell me my system is not resolving enough to display the life-changing sonic improvements that occur when one's fuses are oriented in the proper direction? Hey, isn't it about time for SR to debut a new colored fuse? How about an iridescent, rainbow colored "Unicorn" fuse that, when installed by a breast-bearing virgin, will magically heal whatever ails your system and, when oriented with the horn pointed in the direction of photon travel, will never blow.....wait, "never blow" ok scratch that idea. If SR wants to actually join the Unicorn Club, a lot of their fuses are going to have to blow. On a more serious note, has anyone here heard the Acme Audio Labs Silver Ceramic Fuse? You can purchase it Cryogenically Treated with "Special Sauce" for $16 each, or $12 sans sauce. Any opinions about this el-cheapo priced almost-audiophile fuse? Is it at least 1/10 as good sounding as the SR Black, since it is 1/10 the price? |
From the AM advertisement;
The New Ultimate is extremely difficult to build considering we are drilling into both sides of the fuse now, sometimes it takes 1-3 try's to get one good fuse [ lots of labor involved ].Sounds like a real garage stall operation. Maybe if they sell enough of them at $225 each, they can buy a machine and make their own fuses instead of drilling and filling somebody else's fuses. Pretty amazing to think buyers are paying that much for a $2 fuse with some goop inside. I wonder how good it could get if they gooped a SR Blue fuse.....just make sure it is pointed in the right direction! |
