I attended the Capital Audiofest and thought the Audio Note room had the best sound to my ears. Another attendee from Florida had a copy of "A Night in Tunisia" and it sounded like you were sitting in Art Blakey's chair with his drums right there in front of you. I want that palpability, that "you are there" sound I think low watt amps and high efficiency speakers deliver better than any other combination.
A couple years ago I heard the DeVore 96s at the same show and loved their sound, anyone know of other speakers that give the same sensations?
My system is a SOTA Sapphire w Sumiko MMT and Zu-modified Denon 103 into an Art Audio Vinyl One phono pre into a Lamm LL2 Deluxe pre into an Art Audio Jota SET power amp and into Joseph RM25 sigs.
I am also a fan of field coil drivers. I've heard a number of Western Electric cone and compression field coil drivers, G.I.P. Laboratory clones of Western Electric field coil drivers and an outrageous improved version of the Western Electric 597 compression tweeter (the G.I.P. souped up version costs something like $60k a pair), Classic Audio speakers with field coil drivers, Voxativ drivers, Lowther field coil full range drivers, Supravox woofers, Goodman woofers, Feastrix full range drivers, and a couple of other full range drivers that I don't know who made them. I particularly like both the orginal and clones of Western Electric 597 tweeters and the 555 midrange compression driver. I also love the Goodman field coil woofer. But, what I really would love to have the most is the Jensen/ERPI M10 fullrange driver (13" driver) with a 597 tweeter on top--that is sort of my dream system.
Also, while I do like quite a few field coil drivers, I also like many competing permanent magnet drivers. I think that the permanent magnet version of the Western Electric 555 compression driver is at least as good (but a whole lot rarer and more expensive) and my very favorite midrange compression driver is the Western Electric 713b, which is a permanent magnet driver.
I heard that rumor too. That would be sort of in keeping with Audio Note having developed a field coil phono cartridge. I like the idea of Audio Note improving on the dynamics and "speed" of their woofer/midrange driver--something I would expect with a field coil magnetic structure. I hope they can handle any issue with heat from the magnet in a smallish box, and avoid any issue with the owner/user having to adjust voltage to optimize the sound. Audio Note appears to make it a priority to keep operation of its gear simple and easy (e.g., they employ cathode biasing so that bias doesn't have to be adjusted by the owner).
"You can look at this as theory or fact; works the same regardless ..."
That's dangerously arrogant. You're not acknowledging the alternative, which is conspicuous in itself, and I doubt you've had a pair of symmetrically-to-the-mains placed horn subs or other efficient, large 6th order bandpass ditto (from a point of other design criteria) in your home setup augmenting your CAL's to counter your rigid claim. That is: fact, apart from the scientific approach (and business venture) you're readily advocating, is actually hearing the stuff up close to challenge your theory. Smoothness in bass response is an important boon, but it's not all their is to excellent bass reproduction and overall integration. I work from an (active) outset where high-passing the mains, preferably no lower than ~80Hz, is an important trait in securing the best integration with the subs while adding headroom and cleanliness in reproduction from the mains. It's also why symmetry of placement as outlined is important.
That's dangerously arrogant. You're not acknowledging the alternative, which is conspicuous in itself, and I doubt you've had a pair of symmetrically-to-the-mains placed horn subs or other efficient, large 6th order bandpass ditto (from a point of other design criteria) in your home setup augmenting your CAL's to counter your rigid claim.
Its just physics, physiology and its not my theory- its that of Dr. Earl Geddes IIRC. I'm not certain of what you are trying to say in parenthesis. If you are careful with placement, you can get good bass at the listening position with only two subs. In my case, having done many installations at shows and the like over the last three decades, I've found the DBA to be a nice solution for a vexing problem of getting the bass to play properly where the listeners will be sitting.
I recommend the Swarm becuase its designed to be as innocuous as possible. Its also reasonably priced. I've no financial association.
Having recorded a number of LPs, some of which I mastered myself, its nice to be able to compare to my own expericence of having been there when the recording was made. If you can better that reproduction as you seem to be claiming, I'd love to hear it.
magnet drivers. I think that the permanent magnet version of the Western Electric 555 compression driver is at least as good
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My tech believes a good (= heavy duty) ferrite is every bit as good as a lighter weight Nd/Alnico/FC motor system. But as you say if given a choice, you would opt for FC.
Whereas I would opt for Nd.
That aside,, I’m beginning to believe most important component in a FR is the cone material.
There are Bamboo fiber/TB Banana fiber/Kanuf fiber/Fostex Paper /some Voxativ paper/mineral composite/AER Paper coated treated/Cube Sandwiched paper/mineral composite mix/Mark Audio Wood composite/Davidlouis Someone on DIY has argued wood IS PAPER.. well duhh yes, but it ain’t paper paper. Its wood,, something like bamboo wood fiber, exact same wood fiber as a few of Vox’s higher end/higher priced models. Each material will offer a slightly different sound resonances throughout the entire mid fq.s 200/300hz through to the 4k/5khz. Low bass 40-80hz and highs say 10k-15khz these will be very close in all materials just listed.
Sure magnet structure ~~Cube’s 81 Nd/at a combined weight of 1480 grams is stunning, not to mention their *8secret mix magnetic motor also looks like it has POWER,, AER’s massive magnet motors, as well as Vox’s huge ferrite magnets. So all top lines offer pretty much excellent magnetic field power to drive the electrons through the cone /whizzers/phase plugs. Its the cone material composition which will determine how each high end manufacturer’s speaker will voice the critical midrange resonances and nuances.
IOW each will have a particular **house sound**. Its this **house sound** which is what makes the voice either to our liking, or not so well liked. ~~Come material determines a FR voice in the band width which is our main concern in FR speakers. Not bass, not highs.
I love my Forte IV. They are the perfect fit for my living space right now. Down the road I would like something larger but I really love them. They sound huge . But they handle all types of music well. I am waiting on a 300b. Amp for them and just bought a Zesto Leto and I do not think those Klipsch will be out of place at all with those electronics , they will sound even better.
For engagement with instruments, particularly small groups or soloists, true horns like Avant Garde will present a fantastic illusion of three dimensional listening. The design of the physical horn will determine the perception of placement of sound. If you want more of that effect, then it will be hard argue against Avant-garde or a used Cain and Cain design. Classic older horn speakers like Altec, Klipsch and JBL become a playground of tinkering with crossovers and tweaks. Some dismiss them, but I find them to be very engaging. I had a pair of Heathkit Legatos from Goodwill during college, and they remain a true love. If you love vintage speakers, but want them loaded with upgrades in a perfectly made box, Robertson at Volti is the guy. Devore and Audionote are sophisticated compromises between those who like horns and lovers of a wood box. John Devore really took a risk in a world of nerds with gadgets to measure, and made a speaker tuned to passion over graphs. They are great speakers, and handle so many types of music well. Audionote is fantastic for the same reasons. For small band jazz, they are strong contenders. While Zu, Triangle and others have their (very valid) takes on efficiency, and imaging, I’ve never felt a room come alive in their presence. I’ve never been as excited by anything as I was by a pair of field coils in a large space, but I’ve never been able to emulate that with modern tamed versions. By definition, a lover of low wattage and horns is going to be a finicky irrational bird. No one will be able tell you what to buy, only what to try. The fact that the Audionote piqued your interest tells me you owe it to yourself to dig deeper there first, then perhaps explore Devore. I would not dismiss the 93 as less than the 96. It’s worth trying too. I’m way out on the fringe and can’t be happy unless I’ve modified an old box to the end of its limits, or found a pair of Terry Cain’s speakers online. The exploration and discovery is as much fun as the marriage if you find the right pair. If nothing else, your arms are about to get stronger.
Good entry, kirtgunn2, thanks to you and everyone else who'se weighed in on the subject. I have a lot of speakers to explore but I like what I have so I'm in no hurry.
Kirtgunn mentioned engagement, yes, this was what hooked me on first listening to stock Klipschorns in my system. Part of this engagement for me was this uncanny sense of live performers in my room, something I'd not heard prior with the many speakers I'd previously owned.
A number of years later, the Klpschorns are now after umpteen modifications like a living, breathing entity brought to life by an elixor of SET amps, DHT preamp and high resolving source. I'll never leave my horns.
Before I purchased my speakers, I went on a one year cross country (east to west) speaker hunt. I owned Wilson and Sonus Faber speakers prior. I attended many audio shows also. I never thought in a million years that I would end up with a horn speaker until I heard one in the same room with the likes of Eggleston, Stenheim, Meridien, Vandersteen, Vivid and KEF. The horn was Avantegarde. From that point on I searched only for Horn speakers. I considered Charney, BD Design, hORN, Avantegarde, Deja Vu, JBL, Klipsch, Tune to name a few. Then someone mentioned this boutique horn builder in Sante Fe, NM called Viking Acoustic. I went to the builder/designer's studio and was immediately impressed. I ended up buying the Viking Grande Voix Dual horn speakers. They blew away my more expensive Wilson and Sonus Faber speakers. While the GV's may be over your price range, they do have many speakers in their line to consider. You should give David Counsell a call at Viking.
I was also impressed by the Audio Note's in Deja Vu's room at the Capital Audio Fest and also agree with your impressions. I thought it was the best sounding room in my price range until I went to the Volti Audio room. I listened to both the Rivals and the Razz that day and was absolutely gob smacked by both. I insisted that my crew of friends listen to the Rivals yet again and they agreed that the Rivals trumped even the excellent sounding Audio Notes. I cam back and listened to the Razz later that afternoonr after again stopping by to listen to the Audio Notes. I then spoke with Greg Roberts at the end of my day - very nice fellow and obviously passionate about his product. He agreed that the Rivals were likely too big for my 12 x 18 listening room. I ended up ordering a pair of Razz after a few days consideration to replace my Harbeth 30.2s and my REL sub, which until I have REALLY enjoyed. However, the Volti sound has a presence and natural sound that just grabbed me. The Volti's made me feel like I was in the middle of the music! After 40 years of listening/buying and selling toomany speakers to count, if the Razz can do in my room what they did at the Capital Audio Fest, they might be my final pair of speakers. I'll be running them with a Rogue Audio Stereo 100 tube power amp and a Prima Luna EVO 300 preamp and worry that i have too much power for the Uber efficient Razz given that Greg was running them with a 20 watt Border Patrol amp.
I liked the Volti room too, but, they had a little bit of a problem with bass response (probably the room and show conditions)--the bass was not well integrated with the rest of the sound. Still, the old school technology (horn drivers, tube electronics) was quite impressive at the show when it came to just presenting music.
You will probably have even better sound in your own home, given that you will have more time and resources to make the speakers work well for you.
We would be interested to know why, if you heard what you wanted from the Audio Note speakers why you're not intent on those. Placement constraints?
The ear/brain has a tipping point- if the speed isn't there, the brain moves the music processing from the limbic system to the cerebral cortex- robbing the music of some of its emotional impact
The above perhaps one of the most important comments that I've ever read on these forums. And, it is at the heart of the answer to the OP.
That aside,, I’m beginning to believe most important component in a FR is the cone material.
I suppose the above may be common knowledge but posts in these recommendation related threads are not often explicit on this aspect. Anyway, I think this writer is really on to something. Tone. Poly-anything drivers (Devore included) to me make instruments sound a little bit like they're made of plastic. Great speakers to be sure but I couldn't live with the tonal effects (affects?).
Seems like there are always trade-offs. Emotion vs. precision a big one. I love the presence of the music that comes from my Kornerhorns but sometimes I wish I could experience better stereo imaging on them. I understand why they don't image like Vandersteens but love the horns regardless.
I also love the beautiful sonic images that come from my ESL rig, but the suspension of disbelief that happens listening to my horns just isn't there. I'm always conscious that music is being reproduced on my ESLs.
So I was thinking of suggesting that perhaps the answer to the question of which speakers to get will reveal itself when you figure out what kind of tone you want; what shape sound you want to live with (e.g. concentric vs horn ); and then, if you want a flat, precise, audiophile kind of sound or something more human.
You're in an enviable position. I admire your taste.
I am a fan of horn systems too. I think that some cornerhorn systems don't develop a free-floating image and a sense of depth because of the placement close to the back wall. I hear the same sort of limitations when non-horn systems are also placed close to the back wall (and/or side wall). As you noned there are always trade-offs involved. I have owned all sorts of systems, including ESLs and I've liked certain attributes of all these systems. ESLs can sound very pure, delicate, and "fast," but most don't have the midrange "punch" that makes horn and certain other high efficiency speakers come alive in the midrange.
While I do tend to hear tonal issues that seem to follow the type of material used for the driver, I find there are enough exceptions that I don't hold to any kind of hard and fast rule. I tend to not like ceramic cone speakers, for example, but, with some brands, I don't seem to mind the material nearly as much as is the case with others (Tidal speakers don't bother me as much as other brands).
While some people relish finding certain guiding principles and rules, I actually like being surprised by stuff that defy my expectations (prejudices?). For example, I've heard many single driver fullrange systems and liked their liveliness but I never expected them to be smooth enough or extended in frequency enough to be satisfying. But recently, I've heard several examples, from the likes of Charney Audio, Voxativ and Cube Audio, that have changed my mind. Perhaps, some day, I will hear a high-powered tube or solid state amp that will change my mind about those type of gear.
"Its just physics, physiology and its not my theory- its that of Dr. Earl Geddes IIRC."
I'm aware of that. By "your theory" I simply implied that you presented it.
"I'm not certain of what you are trying to say in parenthesis."
That was a bit elusive, yes. I tried to touch upon that using a sub setup the way I outlined as being my preference is a matter of having a different "design" goal - i.e.: high-passing the mains fairly high to a pair of subs, (the need for) symmetrical subs placement, high sensitivity, pro drivers, very large overall size and usually not direct radiation - all in the service of loads of headroom in the lower frequencies (that translates into easy of reproduction and very low distortion) and optimum integration.
"If you are careful with placement, you can get good bass at the listening position with only two subs."
Indeed.
"In my case, having done many installations at shows and the like over the last three decades, I've found the DBA to be a nice solution for a vexing problem of getting the bass to play properly where the listeners will be sitting."
Makes sense, and not least over a wider listening area for more people to enjoy a fairly smooth sounding presentation in the lower octaves.
"I recommend the Swarm becuase its designed to be as innocuous as possible. Its also reasonably priced. I've no financial association."
The Swarm a la Duke is no doubt a capable solution, but for high efficiency main speaker designs there are compelling reasons to go high eff. with the subs as well, and that requires very big size - plain and simply. It's not a requirement that sells well in audiophilia in general, but sonically I'd say it's a necessity in this particular context. DBA with high eff. subs is an option as well and just a scaled up Swarm, if you would. Maintaining symmetry of placement, be that with pairs or DBA, is paramount to my ears.
"Having recorded a number of LPs, some of which I mastered myself, its nice to be able to compare to my own expericence of having been there when the recording was made. If you can better that reproduction as you seem to be claiming, I'd love to hear it."
I don't know if that's my claim other than recommending another viable subs option, but what I'm advocating would certainly be benefitial into vital aspects of live acoustic music reproduction as well as other genres - again, not least in the context of coupling to high eff. main speakers.
This system philosophy and configuration - with tweaks and improvements along the way - has worked for me for 35 years. Context and ears matter. May it may not work for you.
i am using creek5350 intergrated amp with paradigm studio 100v2 no tubes no problems, just the best
these speakers are rated at 94spl,but do not like tubes...no bass... tubes are inefficiant to produceing bass.maybe if you use sub woffers.whitch i will not buy because the sound i get from this system is anything but miraculoushave a good day thanks don.
"i am using creek5350 intergrated amp with paradigm studio 100v2 no tubes no problems, just the best "
Congratulations and it's good that you are happy with your audio system. High End audio allows very specific and individual taste to be satisfied. In my opinion and admittedly based on my preferences the Creek amplifiers are not remotely in the same performance sphere as the OP's Art Audio Jota SET amplifier. Eternally, to each their own.
That was a bit elusive, yes. I tried to touch upon that using a sub setup the way I outlined as being my preference is a matter of having a different "design" goal - i.e.: high-passing the mains fairly high to a pair of subs, (the need for) symmetrical subs placement, high sensitivity, pro drivers, very large overall size and usually not direct radiation - all in the service of loads of headroom in the lower frequencies (that translates into easy of reproduction and very low distortion) and optimum integration.
If you're crossing higher than about 80-100 Hz, won't you have to place the subs very near the rest of the speaker system?
I get the desire for a high efficiency sub- that prevents thermal compression from being as profound. FWIW I only have 2 of Duke's Swarm subs, as my CAL T-3s take care of everything down to 20Hz in the front of the room. Even at very high volumes, I'v found that the Swarm's drivers aren't moving much. I imagine that could be very different in a bigger room. They are really only there to break up the standing wave though, and apparently don't have to move as much as the front woofers (dual 15" in each cabinet) to do so. So I'm not concerned about thermal compression in this case.
"If you're crossing higher than about 80-100 Hz, won't you have to place the subs very near the rest of the speaker system?"
Yes indeed, no way around that. You can see it in my system's picture where the two tapped horns are flanking more or less the mains being positioned just behind them in their respective corner. Corner loading, as I'm sure you know, is a double edged sword; there's boundary gain but also a typical addition of peaks and nulls in the frequency respons. In my case it's a fairly decent outcome with limited absorbtion implemented, the biggest audible issue being a slight suck-out in the midbass region and a (more manageable) peak just below around 30Hz. All in all it makes for a smooth integration with the mains, and I've never seen the 15" B&C drivers in the TH subs move (or rather vibrate) more than a single mm or two at most - even at volumes where the air shakes violently for a very visceral and immersive experience.
"I get the desire for a high efficiency sub- that prevents thermal compression from being as profound. FWIW I only have 2 of Duke's Swarm subs, as my CAL T-3s take care of everything down to 20Hz in the front of the room. Even at very high volumes, I'v found that the Swarm's drivers aren't moving much. I imagine that could be very different in a bigger room. They are really only there to break up the standing wave though, and apparently don't have to move as much as the front woofers (dual 15" in each cabinet) to do so. So I'm not concerned about thermal compression in this case."
It's a smart way to make a DBA, using the mains full-range and thus adding two bass sources in addition to the subs. Where are two Swarm subs positioned in relation to the CAL T-3's? It would seem the T-3's 15" woofers are carrying the heavy load, and they've got displacement to do it rather effortlessly.
I've tried a near similiar, quasi-DBA in my own setup running the EV mains close to full-range (high-passed at 40Hz) and moving the right channel TH sub to the right corner behind me for a total of 3 bass sources, but even after a lengthy fiddling with delay/polarity, gain, and cross-overs I never came to a satisfying result. My efforts weren't exhausutive, but it became apparent that what was missing was a unified wavefront and the positive effect of high-passing the mains somewhat higher. If I were to try out a DBA again it would be maintaining my TH subs where they are currently positioned and low-passed, and then adding two smaller TH subs (10"-loaded version tuned similarly) placed behind me, symmetrically. Right now though I'm looking into a different sub design, but still a high eff. high-order bandpass, loaded with a 21" neodymium pro woofer.
Where are two Swarm subs positioned in relation to the CAL T-3's?
One is placed against the wall (with the driver facing the wall) to my left. The other is behind me and to the right- it too has its driver facing the wall; in both cases to insure that their output is well within the room boundary.
I was disappointed with how the room goobled up bass when I moved in. So when I found how easy it was to set up the additional subs (according to Duke's instructions) it was quite satifying. I spent less than 5 minutes setting them up after I had the sub amp placed in my equipment stand. That is placing the subs, hooking them up, setting the controls on the amp, connecting my preamp to it- under five minutes. It worked right away- the bass at the listening chair is restored, and because of that the system also sounds more relaxed- a nice pyschoacoustic side benefit.
A number of years ago I was a dealer for Art Audio. Had the Vinyl One, nice nice phono stage....My two cents would be to go with the deVore's. The 93's would be perfect, a little faster the the 96's and simply dreamy. The Jota is very fast with lots of detail so that combo should be perfect...
To follow up: I bought a pair of Charney Companions. I had forgotten I'd heard them several years ago at Cap Audio Fest when I think they had Lowther drivers. I was very impressed by their presence and the palpability of the sound but conventional wisdom had it that they don't do bass. While bass may not be their long suit my speakers with Voxativ drivers produce bass very clearly down to around 30 Hz. When I visited Brian Charney I immediately recognized the sound I had heard several years before. Five months later I am extremely satisfied.
I really like the Charney Companions too. I've heard them with Voxativ and AER drivers. I like the AER drivers a little bit more better extension of the treble range), but, in any case, these are incredibly good speakers for the money and are very efficient. I think that efficiency is important because many of the best sounding amps are quite low in output.
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