Let's try this again.
My suggestion is to listen to a pair of Klipsch Forte IVs. They work well in small rooms and even better in medium rooms. Bonus points if your room is big enough for a Cornwall IV. Even more goodness.....
Oz
Suggestions for high efficiency speakers?
I attended the Capital Audiofest and thought the Audio Note room had the best sound to my ears. Another attendee from Florida had a copy of "A Night in Tunisia" and it sounded like you were sitting in Art Blakey's chair with his drums right there in front of you. I want that palpability, that "you are there" sound I think low watt amps and high efficiency speakers deliver better than any other combination.
A couple years ago I heard the DeVore 96s at the same show and loved their sound, anyone know of other speakers that give the same sensations?
My system is a SOTA Sapphire w Sumiko MMT and Zu-modified Denon 103 into an Art Audio Vinyl One phono pre into a Lamm LL2 Deluxe pre into an Art Audio Jota SET power amp and into Joseph RM25 sigs.
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"I want that palpability, that "you are there" sound I think low watt amps and high efficiency speakers deliver better than any other combination." I will concede that there are numerous ways to construct a very good sounding audio system. For my taste and ambitions the low watt (Especially tube) amplifier matched with easy to drive efficient speakers has been the most gratifying solution for me. Tactile presence, dynamics, fluidity, pace, rhythm and tonality. @fosolitude I believe that you are on the right track. 😊 Have you established a price range? Charles |
you didn't give a buget, but based on your kit, seems like ~$3000 is doable. There's a pair of Eerald Physics 2.8s (open baffle) on another used gear site that should make you very happy. I currently have 3.4s + dual powered subs, though I am confident the 2.8s built in dual 15" carbon fiber woofers would be a big improvement here
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A) Klipsch is on my list to listen, especially as the Forte IVs were cited in the Stereophile Prduct of the Year article. BTW, my room is essentailly a 280" square with an ell to my right rear into another room of about the same dimensions.
B) I have to try Tannoy, why is so little written about them?
C) Budget? Say <= $15K. |
I'm with charles1dad--it is the combination of higher efficiency speakers and low-powered amps that is important to that kind of sound. Most of the better high efficiency speakers suitable for low-powered amps are not budget items unless someone buys used, or builds their own. There are some not so efficient speakers that present an easy load so they are suitable too, albeit, not playing at ear-splitting levels. As the OP noted, Audio Note and DeVore speakers are quite good with low-powered amps, and they are not that extremely efficient. Klipsch Cornwalls are another candidate. My current favorite brand for high efficiency are the speakers from Charney Audio. I heard an expensive, but terrific speaker from Cube Audio (Nenuphar Basis) that is also a good candidate. |
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So...I am the importer for Art Audio. I would encourage you to look at Zu. They work extremely well with Art Audio Amps. Tom, the owner of Art Audio runs Tannoys and they are an outstanding match. I have multiple customers running Klipsch. Cube Audio is a fine choice to pair. That being said, the best option is probably Avantgarde Zeros based on your budget. They are incredible and my first choice. I would need to see if the distributor still has stock but they should be around $15K. The mids and treble would be driven the Jota and the bass has 500w power amps integrated. I became an Avantgarde Dealer because of Art Audio |
I did not realize the budget was in the Avantgarde Zero range (good speaker). In that case, something like the Voxativ Ampeggio is also a candidate. In that price range my favorite remains the Charney Audio Companion speaker (particularly with the AER driver option). At the most recent Capital Audiofest, I heard, and really liked, the Fyne F1 speakers. They were being shown with solid state amplification (Chord), but, they are reasonably efficient so they would probably work well with low and medium power tube electronics. The engineers for Fyne came from Tannoy, so the drivers are similar to the coaxial drivers that Tannoy also use. |
@fosolitude I think its a good idea to replace your Joseph speakers, which are good speakers but simply not efficient enough to really take advantage of what the Jota does. To do that, the speaker should not expect the amp to be pushed past about 20-25% of full power. A friend of mine has that amp; when I tested it, it made about 18 watts. The Classic Audio Loudspeakers Hartsfield is a speaker that has the efficiency to work with SET power since its about 105dB/1 watt. But you might consider an alternative- first, high efficiency speakers often trade off bass extension for efficiency and otherwise might be enormous. So what I would do (even if not using high efficiency and also since getting that bottom octave is really expensive with high efficiency speakers), is to set up a Distributed Bass Array to take care of your bass up to about 60Hz. At that frequency getting it to blend with any speaker is a walk in the park. The Audiokinesis Swarm is a great way to do that, and it would be driven by a subwoofer amp independent of the Jota. Talk to Duke at Audiokinesis about this- but do it- this will make the whole thing a lot easier! Since it would be doing your bass, now you don’t have to worry so much about the bass response of your main speakers which will be driven by the Jota. All you have to do is find a speaker that is good to 60Hz or so and there are plenty that can do that. The harmonics of the bass instruments will convince you that all the bass is coming from the main speakers. The only caveat here is that the speaker will still be getting a full range signal which the Jota will be also playing, so that speaker should be able to handle that even if it can’t reproduce it. Some of the smaller AvantGarde speakers (Uno or Duo) would do the job and they are not sensitive to the room. An advantage of horn speakers is controlled directivity of the horn, which allows you to reduce side wall reflections which can otherwise cause harshness. You might also consider some of the so-called ’full range’ speakers using a Lowther, Cube, PHY, Feasterex or similar driver- with the understanding that such a driver will need a tweeter (probably rear firing unless a crossover is used) to insure that you don’t have beamy highs requiring your head to be locked in a vise :) ZU Audio makes such speakers. The ’full range’ drivers won’t be as efficient (96-99dB is typical), but the enclosure they are in will be smaller, unless they are used on an open back baffle. Spatial Audio and PureAudioProject are both examples of nice open baffle speakers that are easy to drive, although you might be able to run the amp out of gas on them at high volume. But they are a good 6-8dB more efficient than your Josephs and that translates to as if you have an amp that is at least 4x more powerful. Finally, pay attention to the speaker’s impedance and avoid 4 Ohm loads! Ideally you’ll want to find a 16 Ohm speaker since that will allow the output transformer of your amp to be more efficient and will also allow it better bass response (you can lose an octave of low frequency bandwidth of almost any output transformer simply by using the 4 Ohm tap).
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You should definitely look into some of the offerings from Pure Audio Project. Like the Quintet 15 (if you have a large room), or the Quintet 10. Or maybe something in the Trio line. Nice thing about these speakers (other than their sound quality), is they are sold as modules, so the choice of tweet/mids are flexible. They have horn options, or Voxitive options, including optional field coil drivers. And from my experience listening to them, is they seem to have a better focused image than most open baffle, high efficiency speakers. But that's just my impression. |
@fosolitude, You have a terrific Jota amplifier (And wonderful SOTA turntable front end) to build around. Your 15K budget allows numerous excellent options. Cube Audio Nenuphar is a terrific recommendation given your sonic presentation objectives. Definitely worth an investigation. There have been consistent positive comments on forums regarding, Charney Audio speakers, Fyne Audio and Viking Acoustic peakers. The choices mentioned available with Avant-garde are intriguing. The Canadian Coherent Audio speakers are very highly regarded and quite easy to drive. Audio Note which you’ve obviously heard in the full AN room at the show. You truly do have genuinely excellent choices before you. Charles |
Given how much you enjoyed the Audio Note room at the Capital Audio Fest, I would suggest, of course, Audio Note speakers, DeVore 93 or 96, Charney Companion , Pure Audio Project, SoundKaos Wave 40, and maybe the Volti Rival. While I like the Horning mentioned above, it is on the leaner side which is just the opposite of the ultra warm and rich Audio Note and DeVore sound. Likewise, I would think a Zu speaker would be less to your liking. But, you never know until you hear it, so by all means find a way to audition as many candidates as you can.
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I love the Horning Hybrid Zeus and Wolf von Langa SON in that budget range. Profoundly great loudspeakers. |
@atmasphere --
That would be a great option indeed. What's the price of these?
It's not the price, really, but size. That is: few pre-assembled high efficiency subwoofer options are available, and the ones that are from the hifi-oriented segment would likely cost a small fortune the likes of Cessaro, Living Voice (not least) and a small handfull of others. The only viable way, practically, is going for pro alternatives from, as an example, Danley Sound Labs and their TH50, DTS10, DTS20 or TH118XL. They're all tapped horn subs, are rather efficient (way more than typical hifi subs) and sound great. Or, you can go DIY and make it even cheaper. If one is not comfortable building them yourself, have a cabinet maker do it for you. To reiterate: the one true obstacle for most people is size and preconceptions/prejudice, not price. ~20Hz extension from a 1/4 wave horn sub of some variation equates into roughly 20 cf. volume, and if you really wanted to a pair of such behemoths could be made for less, amp and DSP included, than single options from REL, JL Audio or other. It's just the ability to see the importance, give a sh*t about the norm and the will to do it. That's it. No need to go bonkers craze price-wise to realize one's goals here. |
I’m not sure even though we’ve used them at shows quite a bit. You might inquire with John at CAL.
It sounds to me as if you are not familiar with the Swarm sub made by Audiokinesis. Its 1 foot square and 2 feet tall. Its also meant to be placed as close to the wall as possible because its designed to take advantage of the room boundary effect (+3db/octave going down from 100Hz). This allows it to be small and easily placed. In my installation I have the drivers facing the wall rather than the room, to insure the output really is within the room boundary. They work quite well- I use a pair in tandem with my CAL T-3s, which by themselves are flat to 20Hz (and are 97.5dB). Because there is a standing wave in my room, there’s no bass at the listening chair despite the speakers’ capabilities. So I use the Swarm subs to break up the standing wave, and now the bass is good anywhere in the room. FWIW, IIRC the Swarms are about 3500/set (don’t quote me on that) so are very reasonably priced and give you excellent bass.
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You've been given a ton of good recommendations and you're not in a hurry which is great. Since you can get down to this area I would suggest stopping by Deja Vu Audio in VA, they are the AN dealer running the room at CAF. In addition to AN speakers they also build their own hornspeakers so a good chance to compare and contrast. |
@atmasphere --
Oh, I am, I simply made an attempt into outlining the possibilities of the horn sub route, and that it needn’t break the bank. A DBA setup can be a great subs approach, no doubt. Different ways to skin your cat, as they say, and you could go all-out and make a horn sub DBA. I’ve heard a few of those. Personally I favor a pair of symmetrically placed horn subs or other large high order bandpass variant. I’ve been given numerous long speeches on the supposed prowess of DBA - and it has its merits, for sure - but the proof is in the eating of the pudding, as they say. Not to imply all should feel the same way about that I do - on the contrary, actually - but simply that all mayn’t cry ’halleluja’ over the sonic outcome of the DBA approach, even after being preconditioned by theory. |
The Audio Note setup at Deja Vu is better than what was at the show. Also, they have their own custom systems that are terrific sounding and they can show you what medium and low-powered tube amps can do with even not so efficient speakers like Harbeths and ProAcs, and Nolas. Even very low efficiency speakers, such as the Falcon LS3/5A sound great there with modest output tube amps. |
Careful auditioning is primary with matching amp and speakers. I fell in love with the Fyne 702, powered by an esoteric f03 class a 30 wpc. The esoteric was not in my budget to I tried the less costly a/b amps in the series, but the synergy was lost. Bit the bullet and bought the demo, and ordered the 702. Hooked the amp to my paradigms and it was awful. The low powered amp could not drive the smallish bass units. So the esoteric sat for 6 months while my speakers were having drinks in Glasgow waiting for a shipping container. The paradigms and the Fynes have the same db and ohm specifications, yet totally different results. |
Palpability, tone, etc. are all virtues I would give to my pairing of Zu Omens and a Decware Zen Triode. Went as loud as I liked but it also made for some amazing low level listening nights where you could just sink into it. My music tastes and budget have changed since then but I'd go back to it in a second system anytime. |
@fosolitude yep. I am sure we met at CAF 2019. Avantgardes are a pain to setup. With the powered bass, you have a ton of flexibility in terms of DSP to get the bass just right and timed perfectly but by extension it is not speedy and super easy. Placement though is a breeze. For demo, when I have them setup here I have the left speaker tucked into a corner. Because of its directional nature they are easy to get into a room. Corners, windows. No problem. There are exceptions within the line though. There is a ported Uno, the Uno Fino, is actually quite difficult to place but that is more the exception rather than the rule. |
@psag , Thanks for the link. I wasn’t aware of the field coil option for that Musical Affairs model. Available as a 16 ohm load option, nice. I bet this speaker sounds fabulous! The vast variety of choices in High End audio is truly admirable. So many ways to make that Art Audio Jota SET amplifier literally sing!😊 Charles |
If you can find field coil speakers audition them.
We recently played around with the Horning speakers - excellent mid-range. That being said, just because you put a low wattage tube amp with them does not mean sonic beauty. The 845 and 45 tubes make a big difference that just any low powered tube amp.
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I've owned a pair of Klipsch Heresy IIIs for a while and tried replacing them (out of curiosity) with Heresy...didn't like the sound of the new poly horn so they were outta here (the IIIs have a completely different mid horn throat design using titanium drivers)...I also tried a pair of ZU Dirty Weekends and they also fell short of the IIIs. Suffice to say I apologized to the IIIs and am keeping 'em. They're the Capitol Records 75th Anniversary version bought new as an "open box" deal for around 1500 bucks...hard to beat with a couple of subs, and they're relatively small for a horn based speaker. |
One more reason to go with Audio Note: There stuff retains its value, so it is not quite as expensive to trade-up when you decide to improve your system. They don't make much changes to their gear just for the sake of churning the market, so the older stuff remains current for a longer period of time. |
I just bought Tannoy (Turnberry GR) as my first foray into higher efficiency (93db) speakers. I’m never going back to anything less than 91db efficient. But also impedance never goes below 5 ohms with these Tannoys. My previous speakers were 88db Salk Songtowers. Easy to drive...even with a 30 watt amplifier. BUT...it has impedance dip below 4ohms. This led to very subtle suppression of bass at particular moments. I’m hearing everything thing I heard before but just a little bit more in some frequencies and a LOT more in other frequencies. I just never knew what I wasn’t hearing. One word: effortless.
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@atmasphere , those Hartsfield loudspeakers bring back some great memories. When I was a kid I'd take the trolly into Harvard Square where there was a store called The Audio Lab. They had the best used department. I got my TD 124 there.They also carried JBL and they had the Hartsfield speakers on display and to my young ears they were incredible. I thought they sounded better than K Horns. They were much more aggressive and in your face driven by Marantz Model 9's. The Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 look like very nice speakers but at $72,000 are pretty steep. In comparison to Wison or Magico speaker they are probably a great value. I have never heard a pair but at that price I would certainly travel to hear them. Which model do you own? For 15K I would go with the Klipsh Cornwalls and subwoofers. 18 watts will give you a severe headache and the limited dispersion is IMHO a huge benefit. |
You can look at this as theory or fact; works the same regardless: at 80Hz the waveform is about 14 feet long. The ear cannot acknowledge any sound until the entire waveform has passed by the ear. It cannot know the frequency of the bass note until 2 or 3 iterations have occured. In most rooms, if 80Hz, the wave has met the rear wall and is on its way back by the 3rd iteration. It might cancel the energy of the incoming wave, causing a loss of bass. One important takeaway is that the bass, unless the room is enormous, is entirely reverberant. That is why a DBA works so well- as long as the subs have no output above 80Hz (otherwise they will draw attention to themselves).
The actual price depends on which options are installed. My speakers are the T-3s. They are custom built (slightly taller) so as to be flat to 20Hz. I have the field coil motors on the midrange, with beryllium diaphragms employing a Kapton surround- so no breakups until about 35KHz. They are quite smooth and the field coils make them as fast as ESLs. I'm a big fan of field coils- they and ESLs offer speed (and for the same reason- the M.O. uses an external power supplythat isn't available any other way. The ear/brain has a tipping point- if the speed isn't there, the brain moves the music processing from the limbic system to the cerebral cortex- robbing the music of some of its emotional impact.
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@larryi , "They don't make much changes to their gear just for the sake of churning the market, so the older stuff remains current for a longer period of time." Excellent observation! They release a fully developed and mature product from the start. No need for frequent updates seemingly every 6 months. I admire that approach by Audio Note and other brands that are similar in this regard. These type of products do seem to age very gracefully. Charles |