Subwoofer Advice

@tony1954 

Thanks Tony. I am going to try my ML PBK room correction first and maybe (hopefully) it might cure the problem. It will certainly save me a bunch of money if it does!

@mijostyn OK, I found my Martin Logan PBK (Perfect Base Kit)!

You mentioned this:

Run the program then turn the midbass down just a little and the bass up as far as it will go. Then start decreasing the bass a little at a time until things sound right to you.

As I recall there is an Automatic and Pro option for the PBK program. I don’t think the Auto program allows for any manual adjustments. Not sure about the Pro. I guess I’ll just try running and see.

You also mentioned this:

If you do a lot of listening from one listening position just keep the microphone at the listening position for all measurements. If you tend to listen more as background music then use the 5 locations as per instructions.

ML say this, but I think I’ll stick with your advice.

IMPORTANT! Even if your room has less than five listening positions, to ensure optimal sound, measurements must be taken from five different positions. Each position should be at least 2 feet (61 cm) apart. Focus on positions around listening locations.

@mijostyn I spoke with Martin Logan, 2 things:

1. The room correction software cannot be adjusted manually.

2. This is their recommendation for a sub for the 11A's: http://MartinLogan Abyss 10 Subwoofer | Audio Advice It is not a balance forced sub-woofer though (also not available in white!)

@navyachts I was led to believe the speakers had tone controls on them. This is wrong? If white is what you want then the KEFs are it. I have listened to them in a system with Harbeth P3s and they are excellent. The two 9" drivers are equivalent to one 12" driver which should match your MLs perfectly. I really like the ML balanced Force subs also, but in your instance I think they are overkill. 

@mijostyn OK, I will still try the PBK out on Saturday, if no improvement, it'll be the piggy bank next!

Thanks for all your help and I hope your rotator cuff is healing up well!

Thanx! Let me know how it works out.

@navyachts 

FWIW, here's a link to my experience with ML subwoofers:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/subwoofers-and-electrostatic-speakers

@drbond thank you for this. I will spend some time going over it. I just tried to hook up my PBK from Martin Logan and it’s not working some kind of connection, problems, etc., etc., etc. The joy of technology! :-(

Is there any possibility that your speakers are wired out of phase?

It seems so odd that you didn’t have this issue with the Spires.

@saboros seems OK.

For your budget, it would be hard to beat a pair of Rythmik L12s.

Those are what I currently use with my Borresen X3 floorstanders. The Borresens have the tightest, cleanest, most dynamic bass of any speaker I’ve owned among dozens, including panels, yet the Rythmiks still keep up pretty well. I don’t doubt there are better subs out there, but I doubt any of those can be had for under your budget.

The L12s have a braced cabinet that weighs in at 50lbs, a cast aluminum chassis driver, a linear power supply with massive transformer for the amp, and a solid aluminum backplate. Those are quality features you won’t find with similarly priced products from the likes of SVS. 
 

@helomech I checked out the Rythmik L12s and they look like great bank for the buck, but it seems, from what I'm hearing hear, is that I need balance forced subs which are double my budget. So, I guess I'll be doing without whilst saving up for these. Thank you for the suggestion though!

Dynaudio make great subwoofers

their 18s duall 9.5 in model  is inexpensive 

@oliver_reid Thanks Oliver, they look good, but they are a tad big and $2400 ea (plus EGF @ BB)

I checked out the Rythmik L12s and they look like great bank for the buck, but it seems, from what I’m hearing hear, is that I need balance forced subs which are double my budget. So, I guess I’ll be doing without whilst saving up for these. Thank you for the suggestion though!

I don’t have much experience with balanced/opposing woofer subs, but I have heard a number of full range speakers that employ the same principle (KEF for example). I can’t say I was particularly impressed with their bass, but that might have been due to a multitude of other factors. To my ears, the opposing woofer designs help to mitigate audible cabinet resonances, but don’t make the bass sound any tighter. At least that was the case with those full range speakers and the small KEF subs I’ve experienced. 

If you’re set on that design type, I would heavily consider the Elac Varro Dual Reference subs. They seem better built than the comparable KEF offerings. With a typical dealer discount they can probably be bought for $2K/each.

I was considering upgrading to the similarly priced REL S/510SX subs. But the Elac is an attractive proposition because it allows real-time adjustment with the built in app. That would make integration much easier I think.

@helomech Thanks, the Elacs look interesting as well. They list at $3,800 though. Any tips on which dealers might let these go for $2K?

https://altitudoaudio.ca/products/varro-ds1000-gb-10-dual-reference-powered-subwoofer

In the meantime I did email Rythmik and I'm waiting to hear back.

I got my ML PBK working and it automatically adjusted something. I started a new thread call Subwoofer Advice 2 to generate some new comment on the results.

Hopefully the PDF link works and you all can read it OK - u2 @mijostyn 

So, you like it better now? I have a new preamp processor and I have been using DSP since 1996. It still took me some god awful number of trials to get things working reasonably well. Part of the problem is I have a strange setup. Anyway, The manual is not always right because there is no standard system/room. It is a steep learning curve and trial and error are frequently the only way forward. 

@mijostyn my first "Steep" learning curve is not to just jump into using DSP, but to first understand these graphs (Hz/dB & assorted terms/jargon), what they mean and how to apply/adjust them accordingly. Hopefully I'll live long enough to do so!

Hi I have a pair of Martin Logan ESL 11A speakers and use them with 2x Rel 510 subs sited along side the ESLs. This arrangement works really well in my medium sized room.

@dctom  thanks, looks like I have lots of options!

Hello navyachts,

Just a suggestion that you may wish to speak to Dr. Poh Ser Hsu, owner/designer,builder of Hsu Research located in Anaheim, Ca. He has been designing and building subs for over 30 years and earned his Phd in engineering at MIT.   It's still a family business and when I call  Dr. Hsu usually is the one answering the phone.  A very humble genius who is passionate about his work. I have two of his units and they are the bomb.  I'm not sure if it is permitted for me to enter the website on this post but you can easily find him on the internet by searching for Hsu subwoofers.  Give him call. 

@vetsc5 ok, thank you, I will check in with the Doc!

ps;

Hey  navyacht,  I failed to mention that new Hsu woofers are well within the price range that you mentioned in your post.  Hope this is helpful info. Btw Hsu is pronounced "Shoe".  That's easy:)

@vetsc5 +1, thanks again 

The location of the mains has zero to do with the subs unless there's a phase issue. Position the mains where they sound good and then do the same with the subs. Done.

+1 on @saboros : did you check the phase? Are you sitting in a room null instead of a good bass node?  Good luck!

@peterf6 please see my response to @saboros. The whole room seems to be a null.

FYI: Seems to sound better with the ARC turned off (after correction).

Were the Spires in a different position or room?

(As an experiment, you could reverse the speaker cable on one of the speakers and see how it sounds.)

@saboros LOL...The Spires were in a different house (similar room though)

(As an experiment, you could reverse the speaker cable on one of the speakers and see how it sounds.)

Might give it a try!

Easy way to check phase on sheffield labs test record, track 22: https://tidal.com/album/11648127?u

@peterf6 awesome, thanks, I'll give it a try.

@navyachts

Re the Dynaudio 18s

I want to make sure we ARE talking about the same item. The 18s is very compact in fact and is $1799 at Sweetwater:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TrueBass18S--dynaudio-18s-dual-9.5-inch-powered-studio-subwoofer

The dual opposed design results in zero vibration being transmitted through the floor.

If a sub is getting its sound into the room then sound is also getting into the floor. Unless you have no floor.

@mijostyn Anthem finally got back to me on this. It seems that adjustments can be made with the ML Perfect Bass Kit by enabling the Professional Mode. I'm not sure if I'll know what I'm doing once in the program, but at least it's a start. Here is their response:

There are many YouTube videos that exist to aid you with the ARC process, however these tend to be more product specific. You are welcome to share your ARC file so that we may take a look and make the adjustments you are looking for. Be advised flattening the response curve does usually result in "lower" bass, but there are ways to adjust this such as using the Room Gain and Deep Bass Boost settings in ARC Genesis. 

@wolf_garcia maybe I could "Float" the subs?

There you go. Do exactly what I said with the deep bass boost. You have to dive in. Just keep the volume low and you can not hurt anything. There is also nothing you can't undo. 

Bass goes everywhere...it simply cannot be directional by nature, and note that many subs (including a couple of mine) have down facing drivers...you could suspend subs from the ceiling (ha) but if bass gets to your ears, it's getting everywhere else. I have 2 RELs in my main rig and after reading something about WIlson suggesting the Loki's placement as having its voice coil in line with the bass drivers in the mains (makes sense), I adjusted a sub (front firing) to be in line with that suggestion. The other sub is off to the right...a standing wave defeater. This works and I suggest this setup to anybody with a listening space and gear EXACTLY like mine. 

@wolf_garcia @mijostyn recommended to me to get balance forced subs, so I don't think anyone who manufacturers these subs offer a down firing unit.

Not sure if my listening space and gear is exactly like yours as you don't have that info posted in your profile. 

Thanks for the info though!

I was joking with the "exactly like mine" comment to point out that every listening space is utterly different. Bass is bass, and my suggestion is to get a couple of used RELs (that are returnable perhaps) as the high level input from the power amp is cool...no long runs of signal cable required. For 2K you can easily get 2 new RELs if you desire a warranty. My RELs are from a much older "Q" line..a Q150e 150 watt front firing (I own 2 of these, one is part of my video system), and a Q108MK2 100 watt downfiring. Had 'em for years, they work perfectly, cost about 200 bucks each used.

@wolf_garcia ok, thank you!

JL Audio subs, while not cheap, can't be touched and their new Dominion subs are a steal for the price!! Also, REL(I have one in my system) makes great subs.

I use 1 svs micro 3000 and I placed it under the foot of my bed and can't be seen.  It adds all the bass I need with my AE 509's. It gives me that little extra I was looking for.

@rbull11 @bottomzone I was originally interested in the SVS micros, but I have since been advised that subs using balance forced s would be most beneficial in my circumstance. Kinda limits my choices and stretches my budget at present, so I’m going to try and live with what I have at this point. (see my recent post Subwoofer Update).

Thank you.

That sounds like bad advice.  There are a number of different subwoofers that should work fine in your space.  A smallish sealed sub (or better - 2) will fill in the bottom end and shouldn't create issues if set up correctly. 

Are you in Washington?  I have 4 systems in different rooms with different speakers.  Some are SVS.  None of them are "balanced force" and they all sound great.  I'd be happy to have you visit and listen.

@big_greg OK and yes, I live in Ferndale, WA. Whereabouts are you?

Try a better amplifier 

@sounds_real_audio My Coda 8 was $6,800. How much better do you think I need to go?

@navyachts I'm in Olympia. For some reason I thought you might be in Bremerton.

@big_greg 

Hmm, well I've been there a couple of times just not sure when I will be again.

I was just in Seattle this past weekend for a triple header. The wife and I took in the Jimi Hendrix memorial, dropped into the Central Saloon (birthplace of Grunge - first performances by Nirvana, Alice in Chains & Soundgarden). Then finished off the day with an awesome show put on by Herb Albert over at Jazz Alley.

Maybe if you're ever up this way you could pop in and give me some advice.

Thanks for your kind offer though!

Sounds like a great time! I love Jazz Alley!