Subwoofer Advice

@navyachts That is quite the combo, Alice in Chains and Herb Albert. The Grunge seems to be serious bad luck. There were suicides in all three bands. Probably a good thing to stick with Herb Albert. You should try Fourplay, Bob James band, Smooth Jazz at it's best. 

@big_greg Turn up the volume on your SVS subs with a bass heavy number and put your hand on the subwoofer. That vibration you feel is distortion you are hearing. Using two opposing drivers to cancel out Newtonian forces is one way to limit that vibration you feel. With proper enclosure construction and balanced force design you can create a subwoofer that does not vibrate at all excepting for the driver's cone  https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS

Just realized you have the Coda No.8

I had the V1 version of that amplifier.

FWIW, my Yamaha A-S2100 provides more grunt in the lowest octave of bass. IDK how it does so but it does. 

@mijostyn Love Fourplay and Bob James, who occasionally comes to town. I always wanted to see Chuck Leob, but with his passing, I won't be seeing him or Fourplay any time soon. 

@helomech Me too, V1.

I took my wife on a speaker demo tour for our 10th anniversary (yes, she is an awesome sport!) here around the Pacific Northwest and listened to numerous pairs of speakers and narrowed it down to Kef R11s and Legacy Signature SEs. I had both at my house and returned/sold them.

Having had Martin Logan ESLs in the past, I stuck my neck out and purchased the 13As unheard although I listen to a pair of the 11As on the anniversary tour and didn't like them at all, but kept my fingers crossed on the 13As. So, after all that, I don't think I'll be changing speakers anytime soon, although I would love to hear the Yamaha's NS-5000's, but nothing local, as usual. 

Better doesn't always mean more expensive. I would ask a dealer and the check reviews of the speaker not the amp to see what amps seem to work...

@sounds_real_audio ok, thanks

@navyachts Yamaha NS 5000s? What you really need are a pair of Sound Labs 545s and Subwoofers. If you get the subwoofers for your MLs the switch will be easy.

@mijostyn OK sure, so how do you suggest I go about this process of getting a pair of Sound Lab 545s? I was hoping to be near the end of this journey, but I'm still open to suggestions!

@navyachts If you really are attached to ESLs (I certainly am) The Sound Labs 545s give you 45 degrees of horizontal dispersion without curving the diaphragm which is a very non linear approach. This is why ML has to cross out of the ESL portion at 250 hz, to prevent the diaphragm from distorting. The 545 does not have this problem, but IMHO still benefits from crossing over to subwoofers at 100 Hz. You will get better bass, reduce Doppler distortion and greatly increase your headroom. 105 dB is attainable this way with the right amplifier, louder than anyone needs to go. If you were crazy and wanted more, go with 645s. If you want a full range line source which gives you a more powerful system with larger more life like imaging go with 645-8s which is what I use. These are 8 feet tall and have a terrible WAF. The 545s will sneak by. You will certainly notice more detail in bass instruments. The journey never ends. Most of us are damped by finances, but as soon as the money comes in 

@mijostyn OK, I would have to sell the MLs first, then it looks like I would need to cough up another $5K for the 545s then another $4k for subs. I really don't know if there's any funds at this stage in my life to cough up. I could possibly downgrade my N200 streamer and my M1 DAC, that would help cover the upgrade to the new speakers....UGH!

How much room do the 545s need off the back wall. 

@navyachts About 3 feet, but do yourself a favor and be happy with your newly programmed MLs. Don't stress your finances. Save up and when you have more than enough, go for broke.

@mijostyn I understand the principle behind dual opposing drivers. There are many ways to get good sound, with some better than others. That doesn't mean all other options are "wrong". I rarely listen at loud volumes and have 4 subs. They are never straining, which leads to distortion. They all have their volume at around 20 - 30 percent of maximum. They are well integrated, so that with most music, you wouldn't detect their presence. The same results can be achieved in a small room with a couple of smallish sealed subs if setup correctly, with great results and little or no distortion.

+ big_greg, well said.

mijostyn continues to take the time to share a great deal of his practical experience gained from his interesting system and room relationship. Also well done. I have great admiration when it comes to his immaculately dust free well appointed shop. Absolutly stunning. 

IME, if one uses the simple crawl test and low frequency test tones to locate their rooms best sounding room mode. Positioning even a modestly priced -3dB subwoofer with basic controls in, can have quite an entertaining low frequency presentation at least at the listening position. Cost? A long pair of economical interconnects.

With the exception of a four sub array, I've found poor room positioning to be the most common reason for poor subwoofer performance. 

@big_greg you think? Just because your subs are not at max volume does not mean they do not resonate. Some enclosures are better than others, but the only commercial subwoofer that are virtually resonance free is the Magico Q series subwoofers and they are balanced force. There is no other commercial subwoofer you can integrate with ESLs satisfactorily. They all stick out like a sore thumb. All the subwoofers I have ever made except the final model have stuck out like sore thumbs. In addition you can not satisfactorily integrate subwoofer with a 2 way crossover and digital signal processing.

What you are use to hearing is satisfactory to you. My problem is that the sound I was and am getting is never satisfactory to me. That is a curse that nobody needs. Look what it did to me https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS

Making deep bass accurately is very difficult because the laws of physics are stacked against us. Bass is also vague relative to midrange, it not as easily localized if at all and the timbre of bass instrument is determined by their contributions to the midrange. I cross to my high frequency transformer 500 Hz 2nd order and with everything else turned off you can still clearly make out most bass instruments. Synthesizers are the only exception I know of. A great subwoofer system is felt rather than heard. To get the maximum "feel" out of a subwoofer system you have to run it up to 80-100 Hz, painfully close to it becoming obviously audible. Doing so requires very steep slopes, above 10th order to minimize the subwoofer systems contribution to the midrange. Such steep slopes are only practical digitally. You can cross to the sub much lower and use a shallower slope, but you miss out on a lot of the feeling that goes with percussion and bass instruments. Anyone who has been to a live performance in a smaller Jazz club like the Blue Note or Birdland in NYC knows what I am talking about. Recreating that kind of bass in a residential environment takes a lot of power, a lot of subwoofer and digital equalization. Most systems are down by at least 6 dB, usually much more when they get down to 20 Hz. This is at the listening position, not one meter. To get realistic bass in most rooms requires adding at least 10 dB sloping up going down to 20 Hx. That requires 10 times the power! Another big problem occurs in the time domain. It is important that the signals from the various speakers arrive to you at the same time and in phase if that "feel" is to remain intact. You can move speakers around till you are blue in the face,you will never achieve the accuracy of a measurement microphone and digital delay capability. In many cases the correction is done by computer, even better. All this tech is now readily available and at a reasonable price. A $950 MiniDSP SHD Studio and two good quality DACs like Benchmark Media Systems will do the job for most systems. Such a set up will turn a run of the mill Mid Fi system into a stunning performer. Going up the ladder is Anthem and ARC followed by Trinnov and finally DEQX. 

@mijostyn That's really neat that you like going down rabbit holes in pursuit of what you consider perfection, but that doesn't sound like what the OP was asking about. 

I had an ML sub (dynamo 700), sold it. It was everything but subtle and easy to dial in. It was the big, unruly bully in the room

@mijostyn  I can't continue to look at the link you provide, it disappears on its own and goes to a rattle snake and other photos! Are your subs dual opposing one in each end? How much volume is in the boxes? What's that stack of lumber you have in your shop? Actually you have several stacks. Lumber is expensive unless you source your own like me. 

@grislybutter The Balanced Force series are much better. They are not perfect, but they are better than most. The enclosure creates distortion in two ways, shaking and vibrating. Both types occur around certain frequencies. Shaking is caused by unopposed driver forces. When the cone is pushed forward the enclosure is pushed backwards. This is completely cured in balanced force designs. Then there is vibration in the walls of the enclosure. This is not so easy to stop. It takes intelligent design, over construction and the right materials. The problem for commercial manufacturers is this is expensive to do and makes their products uncompetitive in the markets they serve. The Magico Q series subs cost $36K!  

@big_greg You are right, this is a diversion, but @navyachts problem has been successfully addressed and his interest has been diverted to the subwoofer question. I am nowhere near the most intelligent person on this website, but I have been using subs with ESLs since 1978 and building subs since 1987. Experience being the teacher that it is I feel qualified to deal with his situation. ESLs are like the most beautiful girl you wish you never met. It is easy to make them sound terrible putting additional requirements on associated equipment, particularly amplifiers and subwoofer systems. 

@mijostyn Just an update, the bass has been a bit too heavy on both the .arc3 files that Anthem has provided me so just this morning I have asked them to edit the file again to see if they could tame the bas down a tad more.

I have a fair bit on $ invested in this my system and not 100% satisfied in what I'm hearing. You mention amplification as did @sounds_real_audio. Should I be looking at an alternative to my power amp? I did notice an improvement in sound when using my Coda pre-amp over the preamp in my Bricasti M1, so maybe a change for the better could be had with swapping out the power amp?

Failing all of this, if the room is truly the problem, I was thinking maybe of liquidating what I have now and in turn maybe trying an active speaker like ATC or maybe Dutch & Dutch 8c with its built-in DSP? Certainly not the most beautiful girl in the world, but maybe they would suffice.

@navyachts  Have ML lower the boost point from 100 Hz down to 80 Hz and maintain the volume at 20 Hz. Rooms are always a problem from bad to terrible.

The M1 is really a DAC and a very good one. Your current speakers are better. You can make any speaker "active" with the right preamp. What I would do in your situation is get a MiniDSP SHD Studio use your M1 on the main speakers and get a less expensive DAC like a Benchmark to run subwoofers. With your system I would get two KEFs and place them inside the MLs right up against the wall. With the MiniDSP get the UMIK 2 (much better). MiniDSP uses DIRAC live,the easiest of all the room control and bass management systems to use. Dirac live will walk you right through the measurement routine, just follow the yellow brick road. The MiniDSP has a digital equalizer built in that is self explanatory and will allow you to make adjustments. You can make your system sound any way you want. I have set up two systems with SHDs so I can handle any problems you might have.

I do not know what amplifier you have. I would like to see either a Parasound amp on the less expensive side or a Pass or Bricasti amp on the more expensive side. The Bricasti M25 or a pair of M28s would be perfect and these amps are the most indestructible amps I have ever seen. Even I can't blow them up. 

@brunomarcs Snakes? Sorry about that. I will give you a different link, maybe this will work. https://imgur.com/user/mijostyn/posts Yes, there is a driver in both ends. the interior volume is 2.15 cubic feet. 0.5 cubic feet are taken up by driver leaving 1.65 cubic feet total. 0.825 cubic feet is a little larger than one of these drivers calls for, lowering the Qts of the subwoofer. This was a wild guess on my part given the interaction of the two drivers being in the same cavity. Uncorrected they are down only 3 dB at 20 Hz at 6 inches with a very flat curve up to 0 dB at 100 Hz where they are cut off. Efficiency is about 89 dB by coarse estimation. As a system the four subwoofers are spaced along the front wall to form a line source. This matches the power radiation of my main loudspeakers and limits room effects. Because the array is horizontal it sends no radiation towards the side walls and in my media room there is essentially no rear wall. The next solid wall is 75 feet away. Consequently, the bass is very event throughout the room with maybe a 3 dB barrier boost at the side walls. 

I stock Walnut, Cherry, South American Mahogany, Maple, Gabon ebony and Cocobolo. Some I source myself, some is kiln dried from a local supplier. I buy in large quantities because it is much cheaper and I love looking at big piles of wood. I get turning blanks from local tree surgeons and I steal burls from the woods around my house 

@mijostyn I would hope it doesn't have to cost 36K to solve all these problems. My solution with my very entry level Polks is low gain, that still produces the live sense of "beat in my chest" 

@mijostyn Coda #8 power amp, it's listed in my AG Virtual System.

@mijostyn If you scroll down to the SHD Studio on this page:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio

It has a picture showing only a power amp after the SHD Studio and before the speakers and no power amp between the SHD Studio and the subs. You mention that I need a power amp for the subs. Can you please clarify?

You also mention Benchmark DACs. They currently have 3 models, which one would you recommend for the KEF subs?

Thanks!

@navyachts The Coda looks like a fine amp for the MLs. I would not change that. The SHD does not show an amp with the subs because most subwoofers have a plate amp installed in the subwoofer. You would use the Benchmark DAC 3B to drive the subs. If you get a MiniDSP you would disable all processing in the MLs and run them flat, the MiniDSP will take care of everything else. 

@mijostyn ok, thanks for that. I presume the KEFs have amps, so I just bypass them?

Not at all, you are going to use them. The M1 will drive your Coda Amp and the Benchmark will drive the KEF amplifiers. The SHD Studio will provide the crossovers, room control and bass management as well as streaming and source selection like any other preamp. 

I would use the Rhythmik F12 or F12SE which are servo-controlled to match the speed of the ML ESL's.

@greenngoldcheesehead are you suggesting the Rhythmik subs with or without MiniDSP?

@mijostyn couple of quick question, how would I wire up the KEF subs?

1. With the way my system is now - no miniDSP? My amp doesn’t have SUBs out.

2. With miniDSP and the Benchark DAC?

Would the miniDSP work magic maybe with just my Martin Logans, without purchasing the subs? It seems with the ARC Genisis program, the bass can be found with the two 10" woofer already onboard the MLs? I'd just like to integrate the bass better to the room.

Thx.

Now you have no crossover. So, you would take an output off your preamp and run it to the KEFs using the low pass filter in the KEFs.

Once you have the MiniDSP, you would set up the crossover in the MiniDSP and take a digital output to the Benchmark then balanced outputs from the benchmark to the KEFs.

Yes, the MiniDSP will improve the performance of the KEFs alone. You can always add subs later. Two 10" woofers is not going to project anything below 50 Hz with and degree of authority. With the KEFs you will have 4 purpose designed 9" drivers.

@mijostyn Thank you!
Due to space limitations what’s your thoughts on placing both the subwoofers on the same side wall, ninety degrees to the main speakers? Subs are none directional, correct? So, do you think this would be OK?

Not a good idea. The KEFs are quite small. The next best place would be in corners.

@big_greg You are right, this is a diversion, but @navyachts problem has been successfully addressed and his interest has been diverted to the subwoofer question. I am nowhere near the most intelligent person on this website, but I have been using subs with ESLs since 1978 and building subs since 1987. Experience being the teacher that it is I feel qualified to deal with his situation. ESLs are like the most beautiful girl you wish you never met. It is easy to make them sound terrible putting additional requirements on associated equipment, particularly amplifiers and subwoofer systems. 

Experience is a great teacher.  I recommend letting someone start out slow and easy and if they want to go down rabbit holes from there, good on them.

Let's get back to the original question:

"I don’t have a lot of room, maybe 16" or so square and I was wondering about a pair of SVS Micros. Do you think they would complement the 13As or do I need something bigger?"

The answer is "you won't know until you try".  Get a pair of the SVS Micros, try them out, and if they don't "complement" the speakers, send them back and try something bigger. 

What "additional strain" are they going to put on the amplifiers or subwoofer systems?  They have their own amplifiers and there is no existing subwoofer system.  Everything you're saying makes more $$$$$$$ than ¢¢¢¢¢¢¢.

@big_greg thanks for chiming in. Same question, how would I wire up the SVS Micros?

My power amp is on the same wall as my speakers, all the other components are on the side wall.

My preamp has these outlets:

1. Signal output is through two balanced XLR connectors and four unbalanced RCA connectors. The XLR pinout is identical to the input receptacles.

2. The Processor loop connectors permit the connection of an external audio device such as a surround sound processor or equalizer. Connect the output jacks to the input of the processor, and the output of the processor to the processor input jacks of the preamplifier.

It looks like your preamp has 3 sets of outputs.  The SVS Micro only has unbalanced inputs, so it would have to be from one of your RCA outputs.  Other subwoofers have balanced inputs.  You can get the Rythmik F12 with balanced inputs (it's an option) if those are the only outputs you have available.  It looks like they are back-ordered for a couple of months though.

@big_greg OK, got it, thanks!

I have 2 REL S/510 subs.  They are wireless so there is a lot of freedom on placement (just needs AC).  Putting them near the back corners of the room away from the main speakers was best for me.  Very rarely one of the wireless connection may drop and I immediately notice something is off.  Two subs are synergistic.

@rikkipuu Hmm, wireless? That's interesting.

Are they easy to set up, do they come with some kind of software, or do you do the "Crawl"?

@navyachts I'm not trying to shill for SVS, I promise, but the 3000 Micro can be remotely adjusted using an app on your phone or tablet.  SVS also provides wireless options if you don't want to run cables.  I recommend connecting with cables if you can.

@big_greg thanks! I’m just trying to figure out my cabling first. I have 1/2 dozen BJC subwoofer cables, none of are the correct length. I will need to run 4 cables (two 8 footers & two 12 footers) from my preamp on the side wall, all around the corner to the subs that will probably be between the power amp and the speakers. BJC is closed until Tuesday and will “negotiate” with them then. Maybe I should make the cables longer though, they might sound  better on the outside of the speakers?

@rikkipuu said that his subs sounded better in the back corner of the room. I could try them wirelessly there and if they sounded better, I could start drilling holes in the walls, floors, etc.

Anyways, need some time to save up! Daughters in the last year of law school and she’s running out of money!!

By the way, have you ever played around with DSP?

I never got to the crawl.  It just added so much where I had them I was satisfied.  There is a simple volume knob and a crossover frequency knob on the back.  Bit of trial and error until I found the best sound.

Keeping them out of site and harms way makes me like them more.

REL sells a wireless transceiver to use with the speakers.  I use the XLR hot connection as recommended.

https://rel.net/shop/accessories/airship-ii/

By the way, have you ever played around with DSP?

@navyachts not so much in my main system. I've played around with it in my car and have experimented with it in Roon, but it usually ends up sounding not quite right.  I've also experimented with the DSP functions in the Parks Puffin.  None of it is really to my liking.  

I have a friend that uses a Trinnov processor as a preamp for his system and it sounds quite nice, so I do believe it can work well and be a useful tool.

As far as cables, I tend to use higher end stuff for most of my cabling, but for subwoofers, BJC should be fine.  I think I have a couple of their cables in use with my subs.

I like that the newer SVS subs provide the app and DSP to help you tune them, that could be very useful.  If you can get the subs in opposite corners of the room, that is often best, but work with what your room gives you and experiment with placement.  They might sound fine at the front of your room.  Every room is different and you won't know until you try.  If you're using single-ended or balanced cables, you only need one cable for each sub.

@big_greg  ok, thanks for your feedback. I’m working on it. Speaking of working, have a great Labor Day!

You do the same fine sir!

@big_greg LOL, nothing worse than sitting at home, by yourself, on the computer looking at long weekend sales. $150 each off, plus another 5% for two SVS 3000 Micros and guess who bit...UGH!

Sending my cables to BJC tomorrow for cutting a re-termination, which will be a third of buying new.

Best part, as you said, 45-day trial, so now I’m all set.

If I don’t like it, I can still try mijostyn’s route, but hey, that’s gonna be $7 grand all in with DSP. I don’t think I can come up with that kind coin any time soon.

Thanks again for your help.

Please post after you get them and let us know how it goes.  Feel free to PM if you have questions.

@big_greg thanks & will do!

@rikkipuu Very rarely one of the wireless connection may drop and I immediately notice something is off.

With the subs behind you how do you keep a good line of site with the transmitters for the subs?