Subwoofer Advice

@wolf_garcia ok, thank you!

@soix Thanks for the suggestion, you have always been an advocate for the SB1000s. They seem to be a great deal.

@russ69 are you saying move on from the MLs and hook up with some Infinity RS1B towers or Tektons?

@dmaddox77 Yes, I heard something about ML’s new subwoofer line, but I don’t see them for sale on their website yet, but I will check it out.

@mijostyn My room is 15’ wide x 22’ long with the kitchen off to the right of the right speaker, you can see pictures in my virtual system. Yes, I have the ARC kit. I tried this when I first got the speakers and wasn’t all that impressed with the results. I will definitely give it a shot again. Thank you for reminding me about this Mike, any help would GREATLY be appreciated!

@audio_rd_uk and others who have chimed in, thank you!

@big_greg the wireless option sounds great, do you think is a good way to go, is wireless going to be accurate match with the rest of the system? Hardwired, at least for most audio products, seem to be the preferred set-up.

@rick_n Thanks, now I just need to fine the room (and the funds) to get there.

When I use the match finder on the SVS website, they recommend the PB16-Ultra at $2,900 (x2) and REL comes up with their No 31 model at $7,000 (x2)

@audio_rd_uk you have 5 subs in your room, with another two on their way?

Just another quick couple of things. I have had the speakers in lots of different positions with little effect on the sound, so I have them in ML’s recommended position with the backs 10" from the wall and 24" off the one of the side walls, the other side is wide open to the kitchen.

I’ve also found treating the room with dipole speakers doesn’t have a large effect on the sound quality. I have tried acoustic panels behind the speakers, and it didn’t sound good at all. I have no side wall to the left and on the right side, I can pull the curtains closed.

ML say ceiling treatment aren’t needed but do recommend treating the back wall (behind the listening position) which I have done.

ML also says there is no set measurement for the space between the speakers. I have mine 6’ apart and my listening position is approximately 11’ back from them. Toed in via ML's flashlight recommendation. 

@rick_n thanks

@mijostyn +1 on the M1 DAC!

I am not sure if I can increase certain frequencies manually, nor am I sure about the program having EQ capabilities. Even if these features were available to me, I’m not sure if I could figure out how to do it. This kinda sounds a little to techie for me.

If we can advance the low end 10 dB at 20 Hz keep it flat to 60 Hz then curve it down to zero dB at 100 Hz you should be fine without added subwoofers as long as the drivers and amps can handle the volumes you like to listen at.

 

@joeyfed55 where do you place your Stillpoints?

@scott22 the SVSs seem to get a lot of praise here.

@audio_rd_uk cool!

@docknow thanks for the insight, I'll check it out, for sure.

@mijostyn I just found this now online and it doesn’t look like you can make manual adjustments:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.martinlogan.com%2Fuploads%2Fdocuments%2Fmanuals%2FMartinLogan-ARC-Instructions.pdf&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cdae03a7a384e4aaebf6f08dcbc7d8472%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638592494490580679%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Mz3xHSvbGNHJ2ygS%2BVZaTfWzYGsut1nijQq73xMEl9U%3D&reserved=0

And, I see the KEFs come in at around $2K each.

@mijostyn Thanks so much Mike! I will try this when I have some time this coming Saturday. I’ll post back here with the results.

In the meantime, I will start saving up for an additional pair of subs, lol.

@big_greg ok, thanks!

@audio_rd_uk that is so funny you mention the Sub10. I just watched Steve Huff's (HiFi Huff) review of it just an hour ago...LOL!

@1971gto455ho my favorite was the 65: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_FSicQWimU

@tony1954 

Thanks Tony. I am going to try my ML PBK room correction first and maybe (hopefully) it might cure the problem. It will certainly save me a bunch of money if it does!

@mijostyn OK, I will still try the PBK out on Saturday, if no improvement, it'll be the piggy bank next!

Thanks for all your help and I hope your rotator cuff is healing up well!

@mijostyn: "and myself as options and I am not building any more"

DARN!

@mijostyn OK, I found my Martin Logan PBK (Perfect Base Kit)!

You mentioned this:

Run the program then turn the midbass down just a little and the bass up as far as it will go. Then start decreasing the bass a little at a time until things sound right to you.

As I recall there is an Automatic and Pro option for the PBK program. I don’t think the Auto program allows for any manual adjustments. Not sure about the Pro. I guess I’ll just try running and see.

You also mentioned this:

If you do a lot of listening from one listening position just keep the microphone at the listening position for all measurements. If you tend to listen more as background music then use the 5 locations as per instructions.

ML say this, but I think I’ll stick with your advice.

IMPORTANT! Even if your room has less than five listening positions, to ensure optimal sound, measurements must be taken from five different positions. Each position should be at least 2 feet (61 cm) apart. Focus on positions around listening locations.

@mijostyn I spoke with Martin Logan, 2 things:

1. The room correction software cannot be adjusted manually.

2. This is their recommendation for a sub for the 11A's: http://MartinLogan Abyss 10 Subwoofer | Audio Advice It is not a balance forced sub-woofer though (also not available in white!)

@drbond thank you for this. I will spend some time going over it. I just tried to hook up my PBK from Martin Logan and it’s not working some kind of connection, problems, etc., etc., etc. The joy of technology! :-(

@saboros seems OK.

@helomech I checked out the Rythmik L12s and they look like great bank for the buck, but it seems, from what I'm hearing hear, is that I need balance forced subs which are double my budget. So, I guess I'll be doing without whilst saving up for these. Thank you for the suggestion though!

I got my ML PBK working and it automatically adjusted something. I started a new thread call Subwoofer Advice 2 to generate some new comment on the results.

Hopefully the PDF link works and you all can read it OK - u2 @mijostyn 

@helomech Thanks, the Elacs look interesting as well. They list at $3,800 though. Any tips on which dealers might let these go for $2K?

https://altitudoaudio.ca/products/varro-ds1000-gb-10-dual-reference-powered-subwoofer

In the meantime I did email Rythmik and I'm waiting to hear back.

@oliver_reid Thanks Oliver, they look good, but they are a tad big and $2400 ea (plus EGF @ BB)

@mijostyn my first "Steep" learning curve is not to just jump into using DSP, but to first understand these graphs (Hz/dB & assorted terms/jargon), what they mean and how to apply/adjust them accordingly. Hopefully I'll live long enough to do so!

@dctom  thanks, looks like I have lots of options!

@vetsc5 ok, thank you, I will check in with the Doc!

@vetsc5 +1, thanks again 

@peterf6 please see my response to @saboros. The whole room seems to be a null.

FYI: Seems to sound better with the ARC turned off (after correction).

@saboros LOL...The Spires were in a different house (similar room though)

(As an experiment, you could reverse the speaker cable on one of the speakers and see how it sounds.)

Might give it a try!

@peterf6 awesome, thanks, I'll give it a try.

@mijostyn Anthem finally got back to me on this. It seems that adjustments can be made with the ML Perfect Bass Kit by enabling the Professional Mode. I'm not sure if I'll know what I'm doing once in the program, but at least it's a start. Here is their response:

There are many YouTube videos that exist to aid you with the ARC process, however these tend to be more product specific. You are welcome to share your ARC file so that we may take a look and make the adjustments you are looking for. Be advised flattening the response curve does usually result in "lower" bass, but there are ways to adjust this such as using the Room Gain and Deep Bass Boost settings in ARC Genesis. 

@wolf_garcia maybe I could "Float" the subs?

@wolf_garcia @mijostyn recommended to me to get balance forced subs, so I don't think anyone who manufacturers these subs offer a down firing unit.

Not sure if my listening space and gear is exactly like yours as you don't have that info posted in your profile. 

Thanks for the info though!

@rbull11 @bottomzone I was originally interested in the SVS micros, but I have since been advised that subs using balance forced s would be most beneficial in my circumstance. Kinda limits my choices and stretches my budget at present, so I’m going to try and live with what I have at this point. (see my recent post Subwoofer Update).

Thank you.

@big_greg OK and yes, I live in Ferndale, WA. Whereabouts are you?

@sounds_real_audio My Coda 8 was $6,800. How much better do you think I need to go?

@big_greg 

Hmm, well I've been there a couple of times just not sure when I will be again.

I was just in Seattle this past weekend for a triple header. The wife and I took in the Jimi Hendrix memorial, dropped into the Central Saloon (birthplace of Grunge - first performances by Nirvana, Alice in Chains & Soundgarden). Then finished off the day with an awesome show put on by Herb Albert over at Jazz Alley.

Maybe if you're ever up this way you could pop in and give me some advice.

Thanks for your kind offer though!

@sounds_real_audio ok, thanks

@mijostyn Love Fourplay and Bob James, who occasionally comes to town. I always wanted to see Chuck Leob, but with his passing, I won't be seeing him or Fourplay any time soon. 

@helomech Me too, V1.

I took my wife on a speaker demo tour for our 10th anniversary (yes, she is an awesome sport!) here around the Pacific Northwest and listened to numerous pairs of speakers and narrowed it down to Kef R11s and Legacy Signature SEs. I had both at my house and returned/sold them.

Having had Martin Logan ESLs in the past, I stuck my neck out and purchased the 13As unheard although I listen to a pair of the 11As on the anniversary tour and didn't like them at all, but kept my fingers crossed on the 13As. So, after all that, I don't think I'll be changing speakers anytime soon, although I would love to hear the Yamaha's NS-5000's, but nothing local, as usual. 

@mijostyn OK sure, so how do you suggest I go about this process of getting a pair of Sound Lab 545s? I was hoping to be near the end of this journey, but I'm still open to suggestions!

@mijostyn OK, I would have to sell the MLs first, then it looks like I would need to cough up another $5K for the 545s then another $4k for subs. I really don't know if there's any funds at this stage in my life to cough up. I could possibly downgrade my N200 streamer and my M1 DAC, that would help cover the upgrade to the new speakers....UGH!

How much room do the 545s need off the back wall. 

@mijostyn Just an update, the bass has been a bit too heavy on both the .arc3 files that Anthem has provided me so just this morning I have asked them to edit the file again to see if they could tame the bas down a tad more.

I have a fair bit on $ invested in this my system and not 100% satisfied in what I'm hearing. You mention amplification as did @sounds_real_audio. Should I be looking at an alternative to my power amp? I did notice an improvement in sound when using my Coda pre-amp over the preamp in my Bricasti M1, so maybe a change for the better could be had with swapping out the power amp?

Failing all of this, if the room is truly the problem, I was thinking maybe of liquidating what I have now and in turn maybe trying an active speaker like ATC or maybe Dutch & Dutch 8c with its built-in DSP? Certainly not the most beautiful girl in the world, but maybe they would suffice.

@mijostyn Coda #8 power amp, it's listed in my AG Virtual System.

@mijostyn If you scroll down to the SHD Studio on this page:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio

It has a picture showing only a power amp after the SHD Studio and before the speakers and no power amp between the SHD Studio and the subs. You mention that I need a power amp for the subs. Can you please clarify?

You also mention Benchmark DACs. They currently have 3 models, which one would you recommend for the KEF subs?

Thanks!

@mijostyn ok, thanks for that. I presume the KEFs have amps, so I just bypass them?

@greenngoldcheesehead are you suggesting the Rhythmik subs with or without MiniDSP?

@mijostyn couple of quick question, how would I wire up the KEF subs?

1. With the way my system is now - no miniDSP? My amp doesn’t have SUBs out.

2. With miniDSP and the Benchark DAC?

Would the miniDSP work magic maybe with just my Martin Logans, without purchasing the subs? It seems with the ARC Genisis program, the bass can be found with the two 10" woofer already onboard the MLs? I'd just like to integrate the bass better to the room.

Thx.