georgehifi We A/B both (levels matched) CD to 432Evo (streamed, saved and/or to H/D) with a number of albums same versions, classical, jazz, soft rock, hard rock. How do you know that the streamed version and the CD version were the same version - that is, from the identically same master? You don’t mention the streaming source. That’s important, because I’d expect different results from Spotify than I would from Qobuz, for example. |
Good question @cleeds. What was the Service? Is the
432Evo
hardwired to the network? What was the DAC output resolution setting on the Evo? Roon has a reputation for sucking the life out of a sound stage in certain configs. The Evo is a cool piece.
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Asked him this morning.
He was able to say both were the "year and label". So we knew if it was, 1st release, later remaster, re-release, or reissue. And with the amount of a/b'ing all seemed correct, as all had the same outcome.
And the source was he said was the top tier Tidal which he said was better than Spotify, Qubus is not available here in Au.
Cheers George
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Is the 432Evo hardwired to the network? We have now the NBN which is all over Australia fibre optic to the premises, and over 100Mbps download and over 60 upload. And he played the server real time and also saved on the H/D no difference between the two.
Roon has a reputation for sucking the life out of a sound stage in certain configs.
He's a reviewer and owner of Soundstage, and said he found it to be the best. Cheers George |
Interesting comparison and we appreciate you sharing the results. I will say that I directly compared Roon to Lighting DS through my Auralic Aries G2. LDS was significantly better in every regard than Roon which I subsequently dropped.
I’m not suggesting that the outcome of your comparison would be different, but I do agree with jbuhl that, in a shootout, I wouldn’t use Roon. Fabulous interface, but the sound quality - not so much. I tried it straight through and with up conversions, etc. Same result.
I no longer have a CD player so i can’t do a similar test but you’ve piqued my interest and I wonder why it would be the case. |
I love the Roon sound and interface. Roon sounds great in my system so I am a tad confused on the notion Roon does not offer first class sound. I use a modified Innuos Zenith with the Roon/Squeezelite option. Mojo Audio Evo dac taken to the max with upgrades. Not at all my experience. In my system I also found that CD vs streaming depended entirely on the recording. Qobuz 24/192 sounded better than CD in my system. CD sounded better than some 16/44. Frankly the differences were small many times. Seems there are too many variables for absolutes and this outcome will always be system dependent. |
@grannyring
I too loved the Roon interface. And it certainly sounded good. It was only when i did a direct comparison that i noticed it was deficient in comparison. And, BTW, I perused the manufacturer's forum and found that many users had the same experience Not incidentally, your DAC is better than mine (new one on the way!) so perhaps that was your difference.
My speculation is that the native app (Auralic Lightning DS in my case) is able to better integrate with the operating system and properly use the large buffers built into my unit whereas Roon might not be able to.
In any case, I certainly have to agree that there are too many variables to draw any universal conclusions. So, as in all things related to this, YMMV. |
An interesting thread, but hardly conclusive, as perhaps a different CD transport and a different streamer would have yielded outcome, not to mention the small sample of the listening group. Personally, I get better results in my system with a CDP transport, but the difference isn't world beating. I appreciate the ease of the CDP as well, as it's just plug and play, and it is actually easier to find my genre (Classical) on the shelf rather than ploughing through the maddening file organization schemes. I also don't have to worry about gapless play, my ISP throttling my bandwidth, etc. ymmv |
If Ethernet connection was used, then whatever the online streaming source was, it was severely compromised by the connection. I was fascinated and elated to find that employing the systemOptique optical cable converter (Ethernet to optic) when the SONORE Signature Rendu SE was upgraded with that feature improved the streaming significantly. The noise floor dropped, and the dynamics improved. I believe that use of the optical connection was a boost to the quality of the streaming source, Tidal's upper tier through ROON.
Also, I find that defeating all of ROON's settings, returning to a less manipulated stream, is preferable, at least in terms of the ROON's digital engine.
There are many results possible, so it is not as significant as might be expected to declare CD always superior. I have also been able to get CD to sound better than streaming. However, change a power cord, a cable, a player, DAC, etc. and the result shifts in potentially negative ways. I would not subscribe to the notion that CD is universally superior. For instance, simply using a different DAC in each setup can make either one superior sounding. Perhaps if 4 or 5 DACs were used in the comparison, then a more general conclusion could be reached. The comparison would need to be made in many iterations. Who is going to sit through that, and compile the notes, experiences? Very few people. I might, if I found it worthy topic of consideration.
CD was my playback source, and streaming had to reach a comparable level, or at least close enough that the difference was akin to a couple of power cord changes. Once that level was reached, I chose to dump the disc in favor of streaming and file playback. That was a few years ago now, and the digital playback has kept improving, quite suitable for reviewing.
So, can I make a CD source sound better; sure, that's not difficult. But the question is whether it is universally superior. Without many systems, i.e. 5 to 10, to assess, I consider a statement of its universal superiority a limited conclusion.
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georgehifi ... both were the "year and label". So we knew if it was, 1st release, later remaster, re-release, or reissue... That the tracks show they were released in the same year on the same label is no assurance that they were made from the same master tape. Not even close! That’s why some audiophiles tend to prefer Japanese pressings, or British pressings or yet another country of origin - they can all sound different, even on new releases. And with the amount of a/b’ing all seemed correct, as all had the same outcome. That’s actually what makes your test results suspect - that there was "overwhelming consensus of all 5 listeners." It’s unusual to get such singular results from a listening test designed to detect preference. I’ve conducted some similar tests. Sometimes the CD sounds better. Sometimes a hi-res stream sounds better. Sometimes an LP sounds best. As others here have noted, there are so many variables that such a result is hardly a surprise. |
@georgehifi Did you compare the CD to a ripped but local version of the CD, say on a local server?
I'm presently ripping my CD collection as FLAC because I can just put a thumb drive in my streamer and then access the music that way.
So -- any comparison like that, where no internet is involved? |
We moved into a new home three weeks ago and I just received a new CD rack (from Boltz) and last night I started unboxing my CD and SACD disks to populate the new rack.
One thing I'd say that streaming offers is that, when an album is remastered, the new version is almost always available on the streaming services. Though I have what is considered a really good transport/DAC setup, the version I stream from my Roon Nucleus Plus server usually sounds as good, if not better than the CD version.
I'm seriously thinking of culling my CD collection, as I get as much if not more pleasure streaming. |
@georgehif, I understand that there was a unanimous consensus as to a preference. But, was there a consensus as to just how much difference there was between the formats, and if so by how much? |
FWIW, I found that ripping CDs to a USB hard disk and playing them through a lap-top running JRiver and out by USB to a DAC definitely improved the SQ over playing the same disks on an Oppo 105 and out through coax into the DAC. And ripping SACDs, of course.
All of this was improved further by going to a NAS (with ethernet performing better than wi-fi) and eventually avoiding sending music through the laptop by using DLNA function of JRiver and a digital bridge. First the Oppo as the bridge, which was actually pretty good, and later an SOtM.
As a committed vinylphyle, I am more than impressed by what these 1s and 0s can actually do. It reminded me of what some old vinyl grooves actually could reveal as playback equipment improved, mostly after the golden age of vinyl. |
The streaming crowd do not like to hear the conclusion of the OP and his friends...
Sure its subjective and not a rigorous clinical study but it's a cautionary tale the convenience of streaming MAY have some sonic disadvantages that might need to be overcome or lessened.... |
@georgehif, I understand that there was a unanimous consensus as to a preference. But, was there a consensus as to just how much difference there was between the formats, and if so by how much?
It was enough for all (even the 2 streamer dedicated there) to all say in the first 20sec comparison of the same track "yes that’s more dynamic" Then after 1min came the comments "better separation and was blacker background between notes" after were the comments "you can hear the singer diction is better to understand during complex passages" BTW the system was super high res, my feeling were the whole time if the Supratek was taken, out and we went direct dac to amp the difference would have been even larger. And then also on a much lower res system things may have evened out more. @georgehifi Did you compare the CD to a ripped but local version of the CD, say on a local server? Just the same cd streamed, then copied to the servers HD and then played on the CDT Cheers George |
The streaming crowd do not like to hear the conclusion of the OP and his friends...
Sure its subjective and not a rigorous clinical study but it's a cautionary tale the convenience of streaming MAY have some sonic disadvantages that might need to be overcome or lessened....
You got that right, the two that were there, ended up not very elated at the end, probably because both had sold the 1k+ CD collection they spent decades getting. Cheers George |
What conclusion can one reach? A group of audiophiles in a sighted test with a specific system in a specific room unanimously preferred a specific CD source to a specific Tidal source? That tells me very little, other than they probably were influencing one another (or it wouldn't be unanimous).
One obvious question is, were both sources using the same input to the DAC? It's been reported often that DACs perform differently from different inputs (and that varies by DAC).
And if "top tier Tidal" include MQA, all bets are off.
I have no problem believing that this group preferred one source over another. What I cannot take from the anecdote is any generalizable conclusion.
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Having 5 streamers has me commited to their convenience. Even so I bought my first and only high end CD transport this year.
However if not A B ing the difference is not really noticeable, especially with the best streamer/power/cable combos.
It only depends upon how serious your listening session is.
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Even so I bought my first and only high end CD transport this year.
However if not A B ing the difference is not really noticeable
Yes I would go along with that day to day not A/B'ed, but I think the listening sessions with the streamer would be shorter as the wow! factor would be less.
That tells me very little, other than they probably were influencing one another (or it wouldn't be unanimous).
Before we started it wasn't going to be an A/B between the 2 formats, just get together for a listening session between buddies. But the 2 "pro streamers" were adamant when the subject was mentioned that streaming was better if not at least equal, to CD. We only up till then were listening to the streamer up till lunch. That's what led to the A/B'ing of the two after lunch, and when they then even quietly conceded and agreed on the difference. Mind you I'm sure in their minds there were probably excuses to why, but they didn't or couldn't bring them up. BTW And no there wasn't any MQA played Cheers George |
Well, there is NOT a single system on audigon or for that matter I bet anywhere on planet earth that would match any other person's system. So what the OP heard and experienced in his friend's system is valid and true. Now how would the same music source (that exact CD and the exact streaming service) sound on a different system, is out of OP or anyone's hand.In my system, based on the comparison I did, I liked the quality of streaming slightly better than the CD. But again, it is not a dedicated player. It is a universal player. But the DAC remains the same for the CD and the streaming (FLAC/DSF files). So opinions will be different based on our own experiences. Nothing to fret about or claim dominance of one over the other.
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Bet the only streamed version of this is the 2001 version.
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2065688
And not the far better 1995 version, which has one less track, and has differently arranged track no. compared to the 2001 one. Cheers George |
I liked the sound quality of streaming to my DAC from my NAS better than from my CD transport which is why I converted my CDs to flac or wav. I don’t subscribe to any of the streaming services like Qobuz or Tidal.
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I tend to agree with OP that SACD or Redbook sounds better in my setup than streaming. Esoteric P-02X/D-02X combo. Aurender streamer. Only exception is that I’ve found recently that I like some of the quad and dual rate dsd downloads even better than SACD but it not an apples to apples comparison.
George |
