Streamer Advice / Recommendation for Denafrips R2R DAC
I really could use some help / recommendations on the choice of a streamer. Here's where I am in my research: I've decided on a Denafrips Pontus DAC (R2R) because of it's sound characteristics (musical while maintaining definition). It is within my budget, while the Terminator is not.
My current thinking is I need a streamer that does not have memory, amplification or a DAC on board. I will use the streamer-DAC pairing to listen to music in a AVR / Music setup: Denon AVR3700H (105 watts) connected to a Rotel 1590 power amp through the Denon precouts. Bowers & Wilkins 702 S2 (left right) speakers. Bowers & Wilkins 802 center channel (power connection by Denon amp) SVS and Yamaha powered subwoofers. When used for streaming Netflix it's a 7.2 setup.
For streaming music I listen to the usual list of suspect: Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify. In it's current setup, the system is too bright and harsh. Speaker placement is in the room from acoustic hell: rectangular 15' x 45' with the front/ center channel speakers facing the narrow width (unfortunately by necessity and I'm in the process of adding reflection panels to cover 15% of the room.
I am determined to achieve music that does not wear me out after a couple of hours listening: well produced electronic music / R&B / piano jazz. I like midrange dominance but without too much detail in the +8k hz.
I learned to budget more for the DAC than the streamer, but most of the streamers I've looked at are combo amp/hard drive/DAC or they have networking into multi rooms. The Auralic Aries G2.1 is out of my budget by about $2,500 (at 5,100 US), Willing to pay more for great sound but am unsure the streamer makes that much of a difference than the DAC.
The relatively inexpensive Pro-ject Stream Box Ultra S2 is working well for me with my Pontus II DAC.
I'm pretty sensitive to digital glare and have avoided listening to much digital audio for the last 32 years for that reason. But the Pontus II doesn't seem to induce much if any listening fatigue for me. Measures that I've taken to reduce digital harshness include:
Use of an Ethernet cable via an Ethernet access point created by a TP-Link RE230 Wi-Fi extender
Supra Cat 8 Ethernet cable
Pro-ject streamer with the Wi-Fi receiver turned off
Audioquest Jitterbug noise filter
Stordiau Lush USB cable
With all of those in place, I can listen to the Pontus II for hours with no sign of listening fatigue. From having listened to the
Bowers & Wilkins 704 S2 speakers at a dealer, I think your 702 speakers may have an edgier top end than my Monitor Audio Silver 300 speakers.
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I chose the Pro-ject because of reports that its sound quality is better than that of the Bluesound Node. It has some built in memory, but the main route for attaching memory is with a hard drive / SSD / or flash memory stick. I have a 128 gB USB flash memory stick attached and that seems to work great. It also does not have an amplifier built in for no built-in obsolescence when you need to change the streamer due to changing streaming sources or standards! And it does not have a DAC built in. It looks pretty basic with no LCD screen and limited inputs & outputs, but I like to think that their materials cost went into optimizing the power supply and analog components. I've read that switching out the included switch-mode wall wart for a linear power supply doesn't seem to help the sound much which is a tribute to the engineering work done on the power supply to reduce noise from EMI.
Pontus seems a clear winner. It may have some edge to it that could use taming. My tweak suggestion is the buy the Uptone Audio Ether Regen for $640. You also want a streamer without the ability to burn and store and with no DAC. I bought the Innuos Zen3 new for $2,200 last year because it does burn and store. Cds all in another room now. Good luck!!
I was in the same boat as you, with the Aries G1& G2 outside of my budget. I recently purchased an original Aries Femto with linear power supply, preowned, for just under $700. It was the second time I’d seen one at or around this price point, so if you’re patient you could probably come in well below budget with one of these units.
It’s been in my system for about a week, and I couldn’t be happier with it. The control app is extremely intuitive, with excellent Tidal integration, and the improvement in sound quality has been absolutely startling.
If patience isn’t your gig, there’s an Auralic Altair here on Audiogon for sale right now for about a grand, which does have an onboard dac, but has digital outputs with which you could feed a signal to your Denafrips. Good luck!
The Pro-Ject S2 Ultra is perfect for Spotify Connect, Qobuz and Tidal. You can feature them all on the home/startup page. It also includes a decrapifier for PC and Bluetooth. Front and back USB A and it is pretty much plug and play. Great support. Can be had <$800. If you go any cheaper new you will sacrafice SQ or add hours to setup. Beware it benefits a wee bit from a LPS or PSU (teddycap) Highly recommended.
bluesound node 2i or the newer revision just called the node
1 and done
you can spend more on a bitstream source (innuos, mytek, auralic, lumin, aurender and so on) ... it won’t sound better feeding the pontus in your system
+1 @jjss49 — IMHO you’re wasting your $ on the Pontus if you’re feeding it into the Denon. Its highly inadequate preamp section will suck most of the goodness out of any good DAC. If you’re serious about better 2-channel you need a good stereo preamp you can hook the Pontus and the front L/R preouts of the Denon into (bypassing the Denon entirely for 2-channel listening), otherwise your stereo performance will be bottlenecked by the AVR and the streamer won’t make a bit of difference. Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but your next purchase really needs to be a good stereo preamp to do the Pontus justice, then maybe something like the ProJect Stream Box to handle streaming. Just my $0.02 FWIW.
I have to agree with @soix3 - I had a highly rated Denon AVR and although I am sure yours sounds better with the Rotel amp. I've owned Rotel in the past and always though they sounded good. But when I replaced it with a Luxman the sound improvement was amazing. If you don't want to go that route, the Bluesound should be more then fine for you.
I'll add my +1 for the Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra.. Although I don't have a Pontus (yet), I've been pleased with the performance of the Pro-ject, especially at the price point.
+1 Bluesound Node The OS sucks less than a lot of others seem to. I’m unwilling to cough up for Roon yet. I’ve been thinking about upgrading and moving my Node2i to a second system, but none of the under $3k offerings from all the usual players are a slam dunk. There are conflicting reports on improved sound quality ranging from negligible to marginal to significant but not sufficient to justify the price. I really don’t want to buy another Node if there’s improvement to be had for a reasonable investment.
pmreagan2 Streamer Advice / Recommendation for Denafrips R2R DAC
If you stream in DSD for that an ESS base (delta sigma-bitstream) Dac could fair better than an R2R based dac. If you were going for PCM Multibit Redbook 16/44, 24/96 or DXD then yes the Denafrips or Holo R2R would be my choice. Cheers George
The Auralic Aries G1 is very close to the G2.1 (according to most reviews) and is an excellent unit. I found it indistinguishable from the Bricasti M5 sonically, but it offers many more features. So if you were thinking of the Aries G2.1, you might consider the Aries G1.
One of its features is outstandingly transparent DSP for adjusting tonal balance. If your room/speaker combination gives too much at 8 kHz and above, you can set a filter in the Aries that will fix that. I very much doubt you (or anyone else) will hear any audible side effects of that.
I also use an Innuos Zen Mini to stream. I use Roon as the software platform with the Roon Core residing in the Zen. I have about 1000 CDs burned onto the internal hard drive. This has been a pretty good solution for me, particularly at the price point. I stream a lot of music from Qobuz as well. Good listening!
I would also second looking/trying out the Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra. I have the Pontus II and am using a Bluesound Node 2 as strictly a streamer - which is also an option, but I've seen the same opinions that the Stream Box is better than the Node streamer. The thing with Bluesound is that the streamer portion is pretty much the same with the 2/2i/new Node, so you could pick up a used Node 2 for next to nothing and see how you like it and the Bluesound BluOS controller software; I've had the 2 and the 2i and the only real difference was the features for Apple and expanded wifi connectivity
(which I didn't care about anyway and I use an ethernet cable). The Pro-ject also has controller software that you can download for free and it handles higher than 192kHz through USB than does the Nodes. Thing is, the only output on the Pro-ject is USB so if you can't use that it's a deal breaker, more or less.
I couldn’t be more pleased with the generous insights you all have provided. I’m going through each of them and researching each of the pieces of hardware and reading reviews on your suggestions. I am very grateful
The alternatives that you’ve offered particularly those which are a bit higher than my budget are much appreciated. Again my objective is great sounding music without breaking the bank. So I’m open two some redundancy in the hardware
One of the questions that is rising in my mind is the control software. I became aware of the Node 2/2i softwares popularity due to its ease of use. I’m interested to hear about alternatives there as well. (It’s not a major issue if I have to use manual controls/ no remote)
Please continue your suggestions. I’ll keep researching what you provide. I will be providing give you feedback on the purchase here on the forum. Again, thanks for your generous insight!
The BluSound is OK except that your are stuck with dreadful BluOS. Oh yeah, and the Pro-Ject sounds better, I have both. Optional BubbleUPnP into custom Volumio much better (on the P-J) Denafrips has USB in, a non issue. You can and probably will upgrade the amps next, as you will hear the difference much more clearly.
I forgot to mention earlier, there’s also the Aries mini, which a lot of folks had good things to say about when I was shopping for my streamer. There’s one that includes an SBooster linear power supply on US Audio Mart right now for $599.
Read several reviews of the Auralic Aries G1 and revised my thinking (thank you rfnoise). Storage is quite functional and is used to to reduce chatter. Who knew?
So I'm thinking Auralic Aries G1 feeding Denafrips Pontus is worth the money over budget.
@fuzztone Just curious as to what the Pro-ject streamer does better than the Bluesound Node in terms of sound quality? I've read that but haven't seen specifics.
Also, what benefits do you hear from adding the LPS to the Pro-ject streamer?
So I’m thinking Auralic Aries G1 feeding Denafrips Pontus is worth the money over budget.
Not if you’re feeding it into the Denon. Feeding that nice, high-end signal into an AVR is like putting crappy tires on a Porsche — it largely defeats/undermines the purpose (and expense), unless you’re planning on adding a good stereo preamp down the road. OK, I’ve now repeated myself to emphasize the point and will do so no more. Do what you will.
@soix @jjss49 Took me a moment to process your redirect. If I’m understanding, I should first get the preamp and DAC. Bypass the Denon. Later on, add a streamer. Correct?
I’d be interested to hear your recommendation on a new or preowned preamp.
As long as you realize that for good two channel sound you need to do all three then do it in whatever order is easiest for you. Finding used Denafrip's DAC's or current Auralic streamers used is not a common and when they do show up they sell almost immediately. For those you may need to bite the bullet and buy new. On the other hand used preamps are plentiful so you have a better chance of finding something that fits your needs with a little effort and research. The G1 or even the Lumin U1 Mini are great choices and those telling you the Node 2CI are all you need are fooling you and themselves. I bought one for my daughter and tried it in my system in place of the G1 late last year and there was no comparison. This was a repeat of a head to head comparison I did five years ago against the Aries Mini and the results were still the same, the Auralic won.
You might take a look at your amp’s matching preamp, the RC-1590. I can’t vouch for it personally, but it seems to be well reviewed. Looks to have a competent onboard dac, which would put you in a position to buy the preamp, then add your streamer, then later upgrade to the stand-alone dac of your choice. There’s actually one for sale here on Audiogon brand new in the box for $1375, which seems like a good deal given the $2000 retail price.
Do NOT buy Rotel RC1590 for any price unless you want distortion noise or humming in your set up if you want preamp to bypass your Denon Parasound P5 or P6 can do way better
I got the preamp message loud and clear. (Thanks for the insistence). Now it’s a matter of figuring out how to transition my components from a primarily theater setup (being frank about it) to a primarily music/ theater system. I know little about preamps so it’s back to reading and benefiting from experts (that’s you). How do I add a preamp into my existing configuration? It had been my plan to keep the 2 channel Rotel RB 1590 power amp (300 watts), add a 3 or 5 channel power amp (model undecided). The Denon AVR3700H has 7 precuts to bypass the internal amps. The clear advice received here is that the Denon preouts are very poor quality and NOT USE them. OK, so…. Which preamps put me in position to transition to a 2 channel music rig while still enabling a 7 channel theater? Or is it more than one piece of equipment? I know you guys I’ve been down this road.
Totaly agree with @soix, the preamp has a dramatic effect on the sound. Pretty much all AVR suck as stereo preamp. Fix that first (the weakest link), then you could try to find the best streamer and everything else. Try a SPL preamp.
I'm looking for a streamer too, was considering the new Node (now the Pro-ject and the Aries G1 too). But I heard that it's difficult to find a better app than the Node.
The G1 or even the Lumin U1 Mini are great choices and those telling you the Node 2CI are all you need are fooling you and themselves. I bought one for my daughter and tried it in my system in place of the G1 late last year and there was no comparison. This was a repeat of a head to head comparison I did five years ago against the Aries Mini and the results were still the same, the Auralic won.
i agree w @jackd on most of his comments, but not on this... this is contrary to my findinngs comparing the node 2i as a streamer only to lumin auralic innuos and mytek... i suppose this might depend on the dac receiving the sent bitstream but i believe my findings hold for most decent hi end dacs
if using the node onboard dac, then jack's findings make sense to me
Since your Denon has preouts, all you’d need to do is connect the front L/R preouts from the Denon to an input of your choice (or HT Bypass if it has one) on the stereo preamp and that’s pretty much it. Choose that input on the stereo pre when you’re doing HT and another input when listening to streamer, CD player, etc. That’s really all there is to it, and the AVR will be completely out of the signal path when listening in 2-channel.
One potentially very elegant and effective solution in your situation would be something like the Audio gd R28 preamp/DAC available at Underwood HiFi for only $1500. Not only would this get you a good stereo preamp but also a very good discrete R2R DAC that probably has sound characteristics very similar to the Pontus. Not sure, but Underwood may offer a trial period that’d obviously be very helpful. Add in ProJect Stream Box and for about $2400 total you’re all done and your stereo performance will be transformed. If I’m you this is what I’d do, and I think it’ll bring big improvements in tonality, musicality, soundstage, and overall refinement compared to what you’re hearing now. Again, FWIW.
For some time I have pondered on which manufactured streamer to try that will give me enhanced sound for my system.
Take a look at 13th note hifi reviews streamer shoot out on Youtube. See also 13thnote.net
I have taken the DIY route and built an intel nuc into a fanless case using windows server 2019 with fidelizer and audiophile optimizer. Jriver as player, music library on external usb HD, usb to Topping D90 and Topping Pre90.
What I have now done on a second NUC blows the first and all cd players out of the water - roon rock. Same usb chain, so far just the basic player without the LPS I use on the first one sounds miles better.
I have the Pontus II and the Bluesound Node 2 and the Pro-ject S2 Ultra. I’ve only had the Ultra for a couple of days, but my impression in comparison to the Node is meh; I hear nothing that’s impressing me about the Ultra so far. It can take a little patience to set up, and one wrong setting can block any music totally. Follow what little instructions are available with the Ultra and that will help, but the Bluesound is so much easier to get up and running. I still haven’t gotten the PC USB detox path to work at all. Bluesound has its own software which can lag showing all of albums at times, but never locks up on me like the Pro-ject screen does, requiring me to restart it multiple times a session. The Pro-ject software also has this annoying habit of either not starting at the beginning of a song and/or cutting the end short and going to the next one. I have the current version of the software so it’s not that. My experience with the Ultra better get better or it’s going out the door.
yes, i too tried the project streambox, and prior to that, the volumio primo... both well reviewed and recommended streamers - these are of course based on the popular volumio streaming software
but there is something so obtuse and difficult about setting these up, you are right, one false move and the thing bricks... just won’t play, and you cannot go back to the start screen, wipe clean and try again - one of the more frustrating experiences i had when i started to stream
even after i got the primo working, i did not like the software and how it interfaced with tidal and qobuz... was very awkward and difficult to save and access favorites, for instance, and see the past playlist
i returned both for refunds (within 10 days for the streambox as i could never properly initialize, and within 30 days for the volumio unit)... i am happy with blu os and the node 2i... have several of them, they work well and the software, while needing some updates periodically, works well and i can save and access favorites easily
I use a bluesound node 2 with the Ares 2 and the sound is incredible. So good that I will soon be upgrading to the Pontus 2. I admit this is the only streamer I’ve ever owned, so take that for what it’s worth. But, the jump in sound quality when I added the Ares and bypassed the bluesound’s DAC was night and day. The ease of the user interface on the node is what seals the deal for me. I also need to mention that cable upgrades and vibration control are a must for the node. As much as you’re willing to spend on a power cable and a digital coax will reap huge rewards. BDR cones on the bottom and a heavy weight door stop on top of the unit will bring immediate improvement, too. These additions will likely at least double your cost of the streamer. Still a bargain.
"Now it’s a matter of figuring out how to transition my components from a primarily theater setup (being frank about it) to a primarily music/ theater system."
Not sure if you are still in need of someone else's "2 cents", but I had the same issues you have and they are now solved.
What you need to do is use an integrated amplifier with a HT (home theatre) bypass. This will allow you to run your home theatre setup through the Denon, but the two channel system will run through the integrated amp. @Soix is correct that the Denon is the weak link. It isn't that the Denon isn't a good AVR. It is the fact that AVR's are inherently inferior to integrated amplifiers or other two channel setups. My previous system was built around Cambridge Audio's top of the line CXR200 AVR, but it just wasn't doing it for me.
To fix things, I purchased a Musical Fidelity M6si that has a HT bypass. I sold the CXR200 because it did not allow for separate output of the front left and right channels and replaced it with a Anthem MXR520.
Now I run all the HT components through the Anthem and all the two channel through the Musical Fidelity. I was even able to separate the power by running all the two channel power cables into a separate power conditioner.
My experience is that streaming quality is dependent on Ethernet quality. Cables switches and LPS for everything adds or removes harshness maybe more than the streamer/DAC. for me the English Electric 8Switch and Network Acoustics filter tamed a lot of harshness. I think they offer a trial evaluation.
Thanks to everyone I’m seeing a path forward and learning a hell of a lot along the way. I hope the thread is of value to other novices like me. System design (to date):
Auralic Aries G1 feeding Denafrips Pontus II. (Pontus on order from factory dealer for US VinshineAudio)
Researching preamplifier with HT (Home Theater) bypass.
Current thinking:
Retain Denon AVR 3700H in home theater setup
Retain Rotel RB 1590 amplifier for use in 2 channel music setup
Going forward
Purchase 5 channel power amp for HT system.
MY QUESTION: everyone on this thread has been extremely helpful and generous in their thinking. I’d like to stay here on this thread to ask the question quote what preamp do you recommend for the two channel music (home theater bypass) system? Or would you prefer that I start a new thread?
@soix @jjss49 Took me a moment to process your redirect. If I’m understanding, I should first get the preamp and DAC. Bypass the Denon. Later on, add a streamer. Correct?
In case you missed the point I’ll state it clearly- in high end audio everything in your audio chain matters. A weak link component, such as your Denon after purchasing Auralic Aries G1 feeding Denafrips Pontus, would bottleneck the performance. Often upgrading your weakest link component would yield the best sonic benefits.
After you iron out these purchases, you may want to upgrade your cables to seek further sonic upticks. You can save a lot of $ buying components used which is how I purchased my Terminator and Innuos Zenith streamer. Cables can also be purchased used with great $ savings.
If others are reading looking for advice then I’d suggest the Pro-ject Streambox S2 Ultra over the Auralic Aries G1. It is one-third of the price, one eighth of the size and in my A/B tests in a very revealing system it sounds just as good. Also, in the same price bracket as the Pro-ject and as good sonically are the SOtM sms-200 Ultra Neo and the Stack Audio Link II.
For reference I found no improvement to the Pro-ject by changing its power supply. However the SOtM did improve marginally with a separate power supply. With an external power supply this means the SOtM is marginally better than the Auralic G1.
I would add that these improvements are marginal compared to the improvements you get from a better DAC. Better to buy a Pro-ject Streambox S2 Ultra and spend on a better DAC, than buy a more expensive streamer (or network bridge as a streamer with no dac is more commonly named) and compromise the DAC.
I have the new ZEN Stream from iFi Audio arriving sometime next week. At $399, it seems to be a very well sorted piece. Looking forward to sharing my impressions.
Another vote for upgrading the preamp as the weakest link in the chain for 2-channel audio. The pre-outs are a convenience but the preamp in the AVR is meant for the amps in the AVR and won't match well with anything else. Nor is it anywhere near the quality of the DAC.
Be skeptical of the advice on tweaking/cables. Not saying it's all snake oil, but be skeptical and watch budget carefully with that stuff.
If you get a preamp or an integrated amp that has a home theater bypass, you'll be in good shape. It will pass through the front right and left signal from the AVR at 100% level so that you can use both pieces as preamps for their specific function.
I'm confused--undoubtedly due to my lack of understanding of the function of the components involved.
Soix instructs that: "Since your Denon has preouts, all you’d need to do is connect the front L/R preouts from the Denon to an input of your choice (or HT Bypass if it has one) on the stereo preamp and that’s pretty much it. Choose that input on the stereo pre when you’re doing HT and another input when listening to streamer, CD player, etc. That’s really all there is to it, and the AVR will be completely out of the signal path when listening in 2-channel."
I was my belief that when a preout was used from the home theatre receiver to a separate preamp that preamp would need to be connected to a power amp, then to speakers. If I grasp the instruction above it means the second preamp is essentially taking over for the preamp section of the receiver for the front L/R speakers and that no additonal outputs from the separate preamp would be required. Under this scenario apparently the separate preamp would control the volume of the front L/R speakers and I assume the volume of the reveriver would be reduced to zero or slightly above in order that the front center ans surround speakers are not audible. When home theatre sound is desired I assume the receiver's volume knob is then brought into play.
The last part also leaves me with a further question. Soix says: "
Choose [the input into which the receiver's preouts are connected] on the stereo pre when you’re doing HT and another input when listening to streamer, CD player, etc." Does this mean (in my case the Bluesound Node 2i and Topping D90) should be connected to the separate preamp and not to the receiver as is presently the case? Of course the output of the Topping must still be connected to the receiver in order for the speakers to function.
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